So why can Momitsu do what Denon et. al. can't?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by KraGorn, Jan 22, 2004.

  1. KraGorn

    KraGorn
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    4,740
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    Warrington
    Ratings:
    +27
    Somewhat a simplistic view I accept but ...

    ... having just re-located my HT kit I did some playing around with the Momitsu I picked up off here a couple of weeks ago after re-installing it. It got me thinking.

    For £200 give or take this thing produces 720p output which fed into my Z2 in the equal of my ATI 9600/TheaterTek-equipped HTPC.

    Yet, if I wanted to use, say, Denon kit I'd have to go an A11 at £1500+ to get 720p.

    I don't get it. Where's the flaw in my thinking that spending £1500 on kit which produces no better PQ than a tatty £200 jobbie from the Far East is absurd?

    Oh, and the Momitsu works with my Z2, apparently the A11 wouldn't. ;)
     
  2. monopole

    monopole
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    It's incredible... I could have bought 15 Yamakawa 365DivX DVD players for the price of the Denon... (mine was just a tad under £100 from amazon.de)
     
  3. gandley

    gandley
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,024
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Paradise Lost
    Ratings:
    +269
    Because your only getting a good pic.
    sound from said player is terrible compared to the denon.
    and build is **** as well compared to the denon. but each to there own
    i did try an import D1 as i use region 1 dvds and the picture wasnt quit as good as the A11, close mind you.
    But then the de-interlacing of the bravo is useless(read bad). dosent read the discs properly. there a lot more to the denon than just pic(which is awsome.)

    Mind you the denons only worth £1000 so is overpriced. but then its the best current deck out there.(needs a couple of firmware fixes to make it truly awesome
     
  4. KraGorn

    KraGorn
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    4,740
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    Warrington
    Ratings:
    +27
    True .. but when fed into my 3803 it sounds fine to me. :) Yes, build quality is cr@p, the PQ though is equivalent to my HTPC on everything I've thrown at it so far.

    My point is that this thing costs less than presumably the A11's DACs but produces great video quality, great audio quality is why one purchases a decent quality amp, is it not? Why pay for DACs and for features like DVD-A and SACD one doesn't need in order to get a great DVD-V output? :confused:

    To me an A11 feeding say a 3803 or better is an utter waste of £1000 or more because you've got twice the outlay in audio handling for absolutely no improvement in DVD-V quality.

    Agreed the V880 and D1s do have problems playing DVDs, so something like a 2200 with DVI would be my idea of great picture quality with good build and reliability .. sadly Denon only want to give me DVI if I pay them >£1000 ... silly.
     
  5. gandley

    gandley
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,024
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Paradise Lost
    Ratings:
    +269
    i kinda agree it is too much cash and if it were £999 i would consider it a bargain.
    if u think its a waste than you bought the right equipment for you.
    i guess there is such a thing as a techno snob.

    tried D1 but soon sold it as an utter waste of time. sorry its audio is naff. yes picture was inline with my htpc so will agree but it had a few firmware issues that took time to resolve. but the A11 was better and is better than my HTPC.

    i didnt mind spending the cash it was burning a hole anyway, but i cant justyfi the outlay so wont even try. yes its expensive but deep down i think its worth it.

    2 sides to the story i guess.

    Regards
     
  6. nelius

    nelius
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Sorry to get into the old binary code argument, but if you were to connect the A11 and a cheaper player like my Yamakawa 365 via optical to an amp, how can one of them transfer 1's and 0's to the amp better than the other??? That can not be possible. Can it?
     
  7. gandley

    gandley
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,024
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Paradise Lost
    Ratings:
    +269
    true but if you use cheap products to transfer those I. Os then i gess there is a diff. try hooking up a cheap cd player via coax and then a £1500 one. if your dont hear a difference then your deaf. but its I and Os i hear you say.
     
  8. Chippy99

    Chippy99
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2000
    Messages:
    1,328
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    Ratings:
    +523
    With DVD (DD5.1, DTS) this is completely incorrect. With these formats the sound is generated by the AV amp *completely* independently from the DVD player. There is no possibility for any variation in the input signal to make any difference to the sound coming out of the amp. So if you can hear a difference, you are dreaming.

    But with CD replay you are correct. Jitter and recovered read-errors in the input signal *do* result in distortion in the output. So yes, cheap CD players *do* sound worse than good ones.

    But this is *impossible* with DVD's - they just don't work that way.

    Chip.
     
  9. John Dawson

    John Dawson
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    852
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Ratings:
    +112
    With respect Chippy the master clock signal for DD and DTS in an AV receiver is generated from the SPDIF bitstream in exactly the same way as with CD - and if you have a poor quality signal from the DVD player (with jitter, poor bandwidth etc) then it will affect the recovered clock signal and thus the sound quality.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  10. Chippy99

    Chippy99
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2000
    Messages:
    1,328
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Location:
    Bristol, UK
    Ratings:
    +523
    Well that's news to me John. But I guess you would know, so I stand corrected.

    This topic was debated at great length on some other forums some years back and the perceived wisdom at the time (Stewart Pinkerton et al - remember him) was that with DD and DTS, the signal was re-clocked in the receiver, and not recovered from the SPDIF.

    I am amazed.

    Chip.
     
  11. gandley

    gandley
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,024
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Paradise Lost
    Ratings:
    +269
    DAM i was lookin for a thread in the avs forum which kinda said the samething but couldnt find it. Thanks john.
     
  12. KraGorn

    KraGorn
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2003
    Messages:
    4,740
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    Warrington
    Ratings:
    +27
    What's 'jitter'? Something to do with the tracking of the laser?
     
  13. gandley

    gandley
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,024
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Paradise Lost
    Ratings:
    +269
    its a new form of Jazz


    do the jitter bug.........:clap:
     
  14. John Dawson

    John Dawson
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    852
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Ratings:
    +112
    Chip - it doesn't matter how many times it is reclocked in the receiver if the clock doing the reclocking is derived from the SPDIF stream (as it has to be) with indifferent circuitry so some jitter remains. It's a common misconception though :)

    This problem applies to outboard DACs too - the only ways round this I know of are to use very high Q reclocking systems (usually via a crystal controlled phase locked loop - the Arcam AV8 uses this) or by slaving the transport from a master clock sited near the DACs (as used among others by Arcam in the old Black Box 50/500 designs and most recently by TAG).



    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  15. gandley

    gandley
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2003
    Messages:
    5,024
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    106
    Location:
    Paradise Lost
    Ratings:
    +269
    john do arcam have any time frame as to when they may release a HDMI/DVI dvd player. or are u guys playin the waiting game on this one
     

Share This Page

Loading...