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So, who gets credit for this I wonder.?

D

Deleted member 293381

Guest
The test determines application and creativity of knowledge learnt.

Confirms that students who are good in maths, reading and science also have good problem solving abilities.

Basic knowledge comes from education and that is where, in general, British schools require improvement.
 
D

Deleted member 27989

Guest
It's the influx of migrants like myself putting the children through the school system :p
 

BISHI

Distinguished Member
Teachers certainly weren't taking the blame for the decline in standards in teaching (as evidenced by other surveys), so not sure they can take the credit for this!
Yet people in government and those sympathetic to them were certainly allocating blame on teachers.
Do we want rote learning or critical creative thinking .?
It would appear both is not an option.!
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
Whatever we did in the past and it worked, could be a good starting point, over the failed experiment we're enduring now.

Anecdotally, it is well known by some of my more international friends that the east asia is great at school level, but creates people who are often too drone like at university level. Sadly we've got an education system where lots of people are going to university, but don't have the prerequisite ability that would be required but lots of confidence in their individuality, quite the opposite the asian problem.

In the past we had a finer balance, but it was probably because university was based more on a level of ability (although hard cash also had a place to play sadly) and we've swung too much the other way.

How to get the balance is very difficult, but I'd rather have one too many kids excluded based on inability and finds something more fruitful in life, than too many kids with an inflated self and not taking jobs because they believe they have skills they demonstrably don't.
 

BISHI

Distinguished Member
I think the child centred learning that Wilshaw has criticised as 'lefty' has led directly to the results of this study, I also think what he and Gove are proposing will be significant steps away from any progress in critical and creative thinking that these results highlight. I would suggest that some balance is required but instead we have a politically motivated knee jerk reaction which I fear will not bear the educational fruit that our children require.
 
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Pecker

Distinguished Member
And the recent one that praises students is cast iron ...

Typical.

Well I doubt you'll listen, but I'm ever the optimist, so here goes.

The PISA tests have been thoroughly discredited because it became clear we were not playing on a level playing field - other countries were more or less cheating.

For example. Shanghai excluded two-thirds of its students from the tests - mainly migrants of lower ability. If you only enter the top third of students for the tests you're going to get massively better results.

In the UK all students are eligible, from the brightest to the least able.

Only an idiot would think it is possible to accurately rank two countries against each other where one allowed entry by all and the other only the top third.

However, the problem here (as we can see) is that Shanghai is given an unfair advantage. The story linked to in post 1 in this thread puts the UK in 11th place in the world and 2nd in Europe, despite having no such unfair advantage.

So yes, for those very clear reasons, the PISA tests cannot be relied on, whilst the problem-solving tests mentioned here can.

Indeed, the only reason you might want to doubt the problem-solving results is that, as Shanghai will be pulling the same trick here, the UK is almost certainly doing better than the results suggest.

Steve W
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
Oh I am listening, although I don't need to hear it as it is fairly obvious.
Rather it is the attitude that covers everything with teachers, they can't do no wrong in their own eyes seemingly, any time grade inflation occurring hand in hand with demonstrable lowering of school leavers ability in numeracy and literacy the head gets burried, no need for PISA.
 

BISHI

Distinguished Member
Oh I am listening, although I don't need to hear it as it is fairly obvious.
Rather it is the attitude that covers everything with teachers, they can't do no wrong in their own eyes seemingly, any time grade inflation occurring hand in hand with demonstrable lowering of school leavers ability in numeracy and literacy the head gets burried, no need for PISA.
You have used a double negative here my good man, I won't point out your grammatical error but would encourage you to locate, and correct it yourself. In this way you will have recognised and understood what you have done wrong and hopefully remember it should you be required to make a similar point in the future.
Child centred learning.!
 

IronGiant

Moderator
Are you sure? I would have thought that, taken in context, "can't do no wrong" is clearly a contraction of "cant do nuffink wrong, innit" which in turn is a colloquial expression for " cannot do anything incorrectly". :)

Edit: smiley added :)
 
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Pecker

Distinguished Member
Oh I am listening, although I don't need to hear it as it is fairly obvious.
Rather it is the attitude that covers everything with teachers, they can't do no wrong in their own eyes seemingly, any time grade inflation occurring hand in hand with demonstrable lowering of school leavers ability in numeracy and literacy the head gets burried, no need for PISA.

You see, all you've done there is hurl abuse.

You haven't discussed the PISA tests, or the problem-solving tests, or Shanghai. You've really just said "Oh, you always say that!"

Which really is why I don't venture here very often anymore. Too many people just hurling abuse instead of discussing the points raises, one by one.

I don't have an 'attitude' about this - I think international comparisons can be a vaulable tool in measuring performance. But if Shanghai are ignoring two-thirds of their students, are you actually saying it's a bad attitude that teachers have to point this out?

Should we ignore it?

Should we pretend the tests are accurate when they're clearly not?

Should we not celebrate our students doing well in problem-solving tests?

I'm not a person who "can't do no wrong", but I do think it's quite important to verify data.

Steve W
 

sidicks

Banned
You see, all you've done there is hurl abuse.

You haven't discussed the PISA tests, or the problem-solving tests, or Shanghai. You've really just said "Oh, you always say that!"

Which really is why I don't venture here very often anymore. Too many people just hurling abuse instead of discussing the points raises, one by one.

I don't have an 'attitude' about this - I think international comparisons can be a vaulable tool in measuring performance. But if Shanghai are ignoring two-thirds of their students, are you actually saying it's a bad attitude that teachers have to point this out?

Should we ignore it?

Should we pretend the tests are accurate when they're clearly not?

Should we not celebrate our students doing well in problem-solving tests?

I'm not a person who "can't do no wrong", but I do think it's quite important to verify data.

Steve W

You mean like the 'data' that says students in the UK have been getting better and better (as evidenced by increasing numbers of higher grade passes etc) all the while actual evidence by people employing those students (and universities who take on those individuals) suggests the opposite?
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
You mean like the 'data' that says students in the UK have been getting better and better (as evidenced by increasing numbers of higher grade passes etc) all the while actual evidence by people employing those students (and universities who take on those individuals) suggests the opposite?

Well, I suppose if I were to keep in with tone of the thread I should just hurl abuse at you. But I'll tell you what, I'll deal with the points you raise.

Firstly, that "...actual evidence by people employing those students..." isn't data at all, it's anecdotal evidence at best.

Secondly, even if that anecdotal evidence is right, it tends to be quite limited. For example, it tends to refer to things like students not being able to compose a letter.

Now I'm not saying this isn't relevant or important - it is. However, it doesn't really say that educational standards are falling.

Take letter writing as an example. My personal opinion is that we should be providing society with literate and numerate young men and women, first and foremost. The problem here isn't the teachers, or even the standard of GCSEs, it's the content. The day we replace English and maths GCSEs with literacy and numeracy qualifications will be a giant step forward.

Most people do not use quadratic equations, or analyse Shakespearean texts for a job, nor do they need to. And yet we have political policy which insists the teaching Shakespeare is increased in the GCSE courses, in response to employers saying they need young people to be able to compose letters.

Is any of that the teachers' fault? Teachers have to teach the national curriculum and GCSE syllabus. They really have no choice.

Steve W
 

sidicks

Banned
Well, I suppose if I were to keep in with tone of the thread I should just hurl abuse at you. But I'll tell you what, I'll deal with the points you raise.

Firstly, that "...actual evidence by people employing those students..." isn't data at all, it's anecdotal evidence at best.

Secondly, even if that anecdotal evidence is right, it tends to be quite limited. For example, it tends to refer to things like students not being able to compose a letter.

Given the number of students going to University these days, the evidence is not "quite limited" - plenty of evidence about courses having to be modified as pupils simply don't have the basic skills and knowledge to undertake the next step of their learning.


Now I'm not saying this isn't relevant or important - it is. However, it doesn't really say that educational standards are falling.

Take letter writing as an example. My personal opinion is that we should be providing society with literate and numerate young men and women, first and foremost. The problem here isn't the teachers, or even the standard of GCSEs, it's the content. The day we replace English and maths GCSEs with literacy and numeracy qualifications will be a giant step forward.

Most people do not use quadratic equations, or analyse Shakespearean texts for a job, nor do they need to. And yet we have political policy which insists the teaching Shakespeare is increased in the GCSE courses, in response to employers saying they need young people to be able to compose letters.

Is any of that the teachers' fault? Teachers have to teach the national curriculum and GCSE syllabus. They really have no choice.

Steve W

And the point is also made that the teachers are quick enough to threaten and undertake strike action when changes to their pay and pensions are proposed yet were quite happy to sit back and revel in the glory of ever increasing grades despite the adverse impact on the quality of students being produced.

That says a lot about what is important to (some / many / all) teachers. IMO.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
You see, all you've done there is hurl abuse.

You haven't discussed the PISA tests, or the problem-solving tests, or Shanghai. You've really just said "Oh, you always say that!"

Which really is why I don't venture here very often anymore. Too many people just hurling abuse instead of discussing the points raises, one by one.

I don't have an 'attitude' about this - I think international comparisons can be a vaulable tool in measuring performance. But if Shanghai are ignoring two-thirds of their students, are you actually saying it's a bad attitude that teachers have to point this out?

Should we ignore it?

Should we pretend the tests are accurate when they're clearly not?

Should we not celebrate our students doing well in problem-solving tests?

I'm not a person who "can't do no wrong", but I do think it's quite important to verify data.

Steve W
You introduced PISA as your own straw man, I tossed it aside as a straw man should be, I then staked my claim on the actual issues, we all know that PISA is discredited, and I said so.

Come on, we're past this weak rhetoric, we all know what each other mean by now.

As for this creative, well the title name gives some context, as well as the poster who posted it, but I can state the whole argument verbosely in the future if it helps.
 

pragmatic

Distinguished Member
Given the number of students going to University these days, the evidence is not "quite limited" - plenty of evidence about courses having to be modified as pupils simply don't have the basic skills and knowledge to undertake the next step of their learning.


This could also be related to the numbers going to university, but from the many people in the university 'industry' I've spoken to, their has been a marked decline in ability at entry to university, the 1st year is more a catch up than ever. Of Course this will happen when O'Level maths, is moved out of GCSE and into A-Level, and A-Level content is truncated as out of scope, so Uni has to fil in the gaps, ones that weren't there in the past.

Culturally the use of text speak etc has some blame, but university entrants should be above that, and the existence of social media (with spelling checkers everywhere) actually means more writing by the current generation than mine 'from the age of the fax', when letters were already out of fashion but there was nothing to replace them.

There is a change in culture where parents expect their children to perform well, and when they don't the blame is never on the child, and if the problem persists they will intervene, be it homework or even job interviews!. Teachers aren't to blame ... for it all, but there is a portion, but it also falls on government, parents and the children themselves.
 

Pecker

Distinguished Member
Given the number of students going to University these days, the evidence is not "quite limited" - plenty of evidence about courses having to be modified as pupils simply don't have the basic skills and knowledge to undertake the next step of their learning.

Again, it's more to do with course content than educational standards.

If I may give an example. When I sat my 'O' Level in '81 I'd studied the synoptic gospels for 2 years. You put any of my GCSE classes in for the 'O' Level paper I sat and they'd barely be able to put pen to paper.

But that hides the fact that my fellow classmates wouldn't pass a GCSE where they're being asked about what Muslims think about euthanasia.

Teachers can only really teach what's in the course - what they're expected to teach. If I taught my GCSE class about Markan priority and 'Q' they'd have less time to learn about Situation Ethics and Just War Theory.

And the point is also made that the teachers are quick enough to threaten and undertake strike action when changes to their pay and pensions are proposed yet were quite happy to sit back and revel in the glory of ever increasing grades despite the adverse impact on the quality of students being produced.

That says a lot about what is important to (some / many / all) teachers. IMO.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing.

In my staff room, you'll get some teachers who are better than others, and some who are more militant than others. The two don't have a lot to do with each other. I know some fantastic classroom practitioners who are dead set against strike action, and other fantastic teachers who strongly agree with it. Meanwhile there are less salubrious staff who are keen to go on strike, and others of a similar standard who are not.

Sorry, I forgot. This isn't a coherent discussion about standards in education, is it. Just another chance for the same few to have a moan about teachers.

Steve W
 
D

Deleted member 293381

Guest
You have used a double negative here my good man, I won't point out your grammatical error but would encourage you to locate, and correct it yourself. In this way you will have recognised and understood what you have done wrong and hopefully remember it should you be required to make a similar point in the future.
Child centred learning.!

I think you need to get out more.

...My good man. :)
 

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