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So the Philips R80 does NOT erase recs ?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by RecordablDVDfan, Aug 13, 2003.

  1. RecordablDVDfan

    RecordablDVDfan
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    I read somewhere that the Philips DVD recorders incl the new R80 does not actually erase parts of a recording you don't want to keep ie adverts but only hides the foootage instead unlike the Panosonic EM50 which does 100% properly erase footage. Is this correct or hogwash ?

    Best price I've seen btw for the EM50 is £274. Is this good ? Best price for the R80 is £426 from unbeatable.co.uk.

    With the r80 can you overide the EPG planner and is it true that it is also a VCD and CD recorder ?
     
  2. Rasczak

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    That is correct. The Philips uses lossless linking to hide the footage - which has ramifications should you want to do PC editting - whereas the Panny deletes it and frees the space.
     
  3. RecordablDVDfan

    RecordablDVDfan
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    So you record a movie say lasting 2hrs and you delete 20 mins of ads from the rec but that does'nt free up 20mins on the Philips but does on the Panosonic in either DVD ram or DVD-RW/R mode ?
     
  4. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    If you record a 2hr movie in 2hr mode on a Philips DVD+RW you can 'hide' the adverts but the disk will still be full.

    If you record a 2hr movie and delete 20mins of adverts on a DVD-RAM then you will have 20mins spare on the disk.

    If you record a 2hr movie and delete 20mins of adverts on a DVD-RW (VR Mode) then you will still have a full disk but the adverts have been deleted.

    If your record a 2hr movie on a DVD-R you can't delete the adverts.

    If you refer to the threads ' "+" or "-" ' then you will get a full run down of the effects/limitations of each format and on the pros and cons of archiving with each. The bottom line though is if you want to archive editted stuff in top quality then you either need the HS2/RX3 or the E30/50 with a PC DVD Burner.
     
  5. RecordablDVDfan

    RecordablDVDfan
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    Thanks for explaining. What a con though for anyone not in the know and they buy a philips. What is the point of using a DVD RW disk which is erasable if you can't erase recordings! Crazy

    Do you know what is selling the most in the UK the Pan or Philips ?
     
  6. Rasczak

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    Well you make your recording, watch it and then erase it all. It suits some people - others prefer more flexibility.

    At the moment Philips (unless you count DVD-RAM camcorder sales when it is DVD-RAM). However Philips is ahead because it got to the UK first and was cheaper. That is no longer the case so things may well (will probably) change - especially as Toshiba, JVC and Samsung are now all entering the market for RAM (as opposed to Daewoo, Bush, Mico for DVD+RW).

    All that said none of the DVD formats are going to disappear for five major reasons:

    1) All three formats have sold well

    2) All three formats have PC uses meaning media will always be available. DVD-RW/+RW have home uses, DVD-RAM is primarily business useage as data storage, backup format etc.

    3) DVD-RAM/-RW both have uses in Camcorders.

    4) All three formats won't survive long enough to 'die' due to the arrival of HD-DVD within the next few years (although don't be put off buying a DVDR because they are still 24-36 months away - and even then they will be expensive).

    5) DVD-RAM/-RW/-R are guaranteed a future by being incorporated into the specifications for HD-DVD and given the fact they are supported by all major electronics companies bar Philips.
     
  7. phelings

    phelings
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    If you hide the adverts on a recording,then playing it on another machine will make no difference-the ads will play.It only seems to work if you play it back on the recorder.Worthless function-although if it worked on other players it would be great,even if the ads were only skipped rather than erased
     
  8. RecordablDVDfan

    RecordablDVDfan
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    HD-DVD ? What rec time will this give ?! Nothing stands still anymore!
     
  9. Rasczak

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    23GB of disk space which is just under 5 times what DVDR can do now. This will be very welcome when it comes but as I say is still someway away. You can afford to buy a DVDR, expect it to have a full working life, and then replace it with HD-DVD. And your existing DVDR disks will be compatible with it for both recording and playing.
     
  10. RecordablDVDfan

    RecordablDVDfan
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    23GB on one side ?! Technology has gone mad! Shame the UK does'nt have and never will have HD TV
     
  11. Rasczak

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    Never say never! It's possible Sky may do limited HD Broadcasts - it would benefit films and some sport very well. However we will almost certainly get HD-DVD. This may be in .wmv format on standard DVDs (which is part of the HiMAT standard) or may appear on BluRay disks. Whatever it will be mean a high capacity format for recording 'normal TV'. It also looks strongly like their will be only one Blu-Ray format (in three parts: BR-Re, BR-R and BR-ROM) so it will probably help digital recording take off - although will makes boards like this less interesting!
     
  12. calscot

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    Some of the posts here are not entirely true and therefore very misleading.

    On the Philips you CAN delete parts of a recording. You do this by dividing the recording and deleting the unwanted titles. On playback the blank parts will be skipped. This means if you recorded say an extra 10 minutes on the end of a programme you can recover the space.

    Also despite what has been posted, if you hide any chapters they WILL be skipped when played in another DVD player IF you use the "Make compatible" function.

    Another place where people like to mislead is that is NOT the fact that +RW does not recover deleted space like a hard drive because it is poorer in any way, this feature was SACRIFICED for the considerable benefit to a lot of people of backward compatibilty of which it has achieved at least 70% of players. RAM has ZERO backward compatability.

    It is a trade off. The fact that ALL recordable media can only hold 4.7GB per side and so can only record 2hrs at good quality means that the recovery of deleted ad breaks is of limited use anyway on a non HD machine. It is better to buy a few more cheap +RW's (£3 in maplins never mind the internet) so you don't have to worry about it. This media is cheap so why worry so much about 3minutes here and there of space when you can shove in a nice new disc?

    In fact after a while of really USING it you'll probably rarely go to the considerable trouble of deleting adverts (you have to search for them, then slomo to the exact frames where they start and stop and then delete which is not instant multiplied by the number of ad breaks) and instead find it far less hassle to use the automatic five minute chapters and fast forward to skip them while watching instead. This is FAR less work.

    If you really want to squeeze things on to archive them, then you could use you're old dvd player (or your mates or buy a Toshiba 330 for £80) to dub an edited +RW to +R. Space miraculously recovered. You have far less options in DVD players if you want to do this with a non HDD RAM player.

    An HDD RAM recorder is probably the best a PVR if you don't want to share, but then the advantage is in the HDD which means you'd rarely use the RAM recording as -R would be the way to go for cheaper archiving.

    But a pace twin recorder or tivo and a +RW recorder would pretty much do the same job albeit a little less easily.

    So RAM recorders do not have as big a gap in funtionality as some would have us believe.

    The MAIN real world advantages of -R and -RAM is flexible record mode (only really usful when recording are between about 1hr15 and 1ht45min) and variable bit rate. Oh yeah, time slip on RAM. The playback and record on RAM can be beaten with +RW by using your old DVD player in tandem.

    If you really want RAM then it would be better to go for the new JVC which has RAM and -RW which gives you compatibility should you need it.

    CHeers,
    Cal.
     
  13. Rasczak

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    No - you can hide parts of the recording - you cannot delete the data from the disk. As I've already pointed out this has serious implications for PC editting (which a considerable number of people do considering they want animated menus etc on archived recordings).

    That is indeed true but then WVWE has rated the S35 and S75 very highly which means this isn't too hard to accept. With the recent announcement of the Recordable DVD Council of an initiative to support RAM more fully - and with companies like JVC and Toshiba onboard (as well as + companies such as Daewoo!) we will see a considerable increase in RAM players. Not, I grant you to the same extent as DVD-RW/+RW but a significant increase non-the-less.

    This isn't correct at all. I use RAM all the time on my HS2. Firstly it is, for me, a relatively easy medium to share as most of my friends/family who I share recordings with have the E30/50/HS2.

    Secondly I tend to edit on my HS2 and then copy to my PC for creation of custom (animated) menus before burning (on the PC) to DVD-R. DVD-RAM allows this to be much more effective due to it's .VRO file structure.

    Thirdly as I work away from home my favourite programmes have to be recorded. As Sky+ fills up I have my Uncle makes copies to DVD-RAM disks which enable me to quickly dub back to the HS2's HDD, before editting and archiving (if requried).

    Fourthly DVD-RAM enables me to compile JPEG galleries from my digital camera which can then easily be viewed or copied to my PC.

    Finally if I working on the HDD (doing things like Partial Erase etc), I prefer to use the DVD-RAM disk to record things. Whether or not I want to archive is not an issue as I can easily do a high speed dub from RAM to HDD.

    Whilst I agree 4.7GB is a very limited canvas I can't accept not getting disk space back doesn't help. I'm not going to re-quote my 3 x 1hr (45min + 15mins adverts) example but it goes without saying on a Philips you would need the 3hr mode and on a Panny only 2hr 15min mode. This example is particularly important as the resolution drop occurs around 2hrs 20mins. But the reasoning holds true for a wide variety of scenerios. I do agree this is only of relevance to archiving though - not everyday use.

    As does a Tivo or Pace Twin with a RAM recorder. Only then you get the VBR to compensate for the slightly reduced quality!

    But if you care this much to archive the stuff you seeing yourself off so badly. First you record on DVD+RW using a bitrate almost 2MBits per second lower than DVD-RAM and with no VBR. Secondly you then make a copy of this reduced quality recording again using a lower bitrate than DVD-RAM and again with no VBR.

    Talk about a drop in quality! If you care this much about archiving, but are on a budget, then instead of buying a DVD+RW and DVD player buy an E50 for a DVD player/primary recorder and a PC DVDR drive to copy recordings across and archive onto DVD-R as required. The quality difference would be substantial.

    And a high top bitrate. And 'official' status. And the recover of disk space as I've highlighted in previous posts. And bottom line is RAM has all these advantages OVER DVD+RW - so why go for the latter.
     
  14. calscot

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    You may be talking more technically here but it is still out of kilter to what was said earlier. The fact is that you can divide titles and then delete them so that they are marked as untitled and can then be recorded over or autamatically skipped over. This is an important point if for example someone records three 30min programmes in a row and wants to delete the middle one and record another 30min program. People are being misled into thinking this cannot be done. I've no idea about the PC editing, as like most people, I will never do this.


    Ok, but - a choice of two machines, neither of which is Pal progressive? You can buy a pal progressive, +RW compatible player for £120. Also what about the second hand market to save money or the new £40 machines? Or supposing you want SACD too?

    You're slagging off the inflexibility of +RW yet you're prepared to accept the inflexibility above?

    But would you say you are a typical user? I would not. You definitely have the right product for you. I am pretty technically minded but still don't go to all the trouble you do. I use my recorder to record and watch... like most people. In that regard, +RW is not too limiting.

    I do, however, use it atypically to watch TV on my PJ.

    What - record 2 episodes on SP, put in cheap new disk? Who seriously want to do 20mins of faffing...? How much stuff do you keep?

    There is also the question of do you really need that tiny bit of extra quality? Everyone who watches sp mode on mine say it looks like it is straight off the telly.

    Then there's your signal to take into account or the already poor quality digital from sky. BTW the Philips 880 has a MUCH better tuner than my TV and even finds an extra channel from my NTL analogue signal.

    Also if you want to talk numbers there's the better video jitter and signal to noise ratio etc of the 880 over E30. That must make a difference to the picture.

    But all these are minor improvements only noticable by videophiles. In fact most people are satisfied with VHS and so are blown away by +RW - as was I. They also mostly watch on 28 to 32 inch tv's.

    If you're that bothered why spend time deleting adds etc when you can by the film for £6 by the time it's on the telly. If it's not films, then really high picture quality is not usually an issue.

    Fair enough advice but sounds like more of a hobby in itself.

    That's just scaremongaring. Unix has official status, Windows does not, what are you running?

    That's the point , RAM has a lot of advantages but there is an argument to go for the latter if your have different priorities - like compatibilty with your old player (remember most people will have one when they buy a recorder), availablitity of cheap rewritable media etc, etc, etc.

    +RW is still comparible to RAM for every day use and is not as limited as many here would like it to be especially for those who hate faffing around.

    If RAM is that good why not let it sell itself on its true merrits instead of selling it on features that are generally hardly used and UNFAIRLY slamming the competition.

    Remember, the fact that +RW doesn't have the editing features is an ADVANTAGE, it means it can be backwardly compatible. To add those features would have made it impossible.

    Just like it is an advantage for a car to seat 5, although doesn't have the acceleration of a motorbike or it's ability to avoid getting stuck in jams.

    Horses for courses.

    The more I hear the less I'm attracted to RAM as I start to think, "hold on - would I ever really use that? Or would I really notice the difference?".

    I have a phone with wap and gprs which I never use but it's only dual band so it didn't work in america. I would swap the wap for triband anyday. Ie swap features for compatiblity.

    Perhaps you think pens with a digital clock are much better than those without - but hey you really like to know the time... ;)

    Cheers,
    Cal
     
  15. wellsi

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    Calscot,

    Your comments are very valid, and it is indeed horses for courses.

    When I had the E20 (first generation Panasonic RAM / dvd-r machine), it frustrated me that if I recorded anything on RAM, I couldn't then transfer it to dvd-r or watch it on any other player,
    When making a recording, I had to decide to go for compatibility but no editing (-r), or full flung editiing and smartening up, but only watch the finished product on the one machine.

    I solved this problem initially by getting a new dvd player that could playback RAM.
    I further solved this problem by getting the HS2 with it's ability to edit to my heart's content and transfer to dvd-r if I wanted to.
    (RAM's widening circle of players and manufacturers further reduces this problem.)

    Anyone that owns an HS2 will truly wonder how people cope and suffer with non HDD machines.

    The bottom line is as you say; for those that don't want the expense of a HDD machine or a second RAM player, or are not interested in any of the playback features of RAM, then +RW may well be more appropriate;
    I use RAM like you would use your Sky+, to delay the programs until I'm ready to watch them (be it "pausing live tv" or delaying until the following day". )

    All this is valid now. As we have discussed along many a thread elsewhere, the future can be more fun to predict, but the alignment of companies behind each format is, I believe, as good as proof as the current consumer trends in the US & Far East.

    As Rasczak states, neither format will die; all are too well established; however future development and enhancements seem to be very much going the RAM / -R / -RW route.

    cheers
     
  16. Rasczak

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    Yes I perfectly prepared to accept the inflexibility of DVD-RAM with regards to compatibility. HOWEVER what I do not accept is that DVD+RW is then the best alternative - DVD-RW is whereby you still get the benefits of increased bitrate etc.

    You see this is what I don't understand from your posts. You talk about PAL Progressive which you are doubtless looking forward to getting to work with your projector so you obviously care about quality. Therefore PS of a lower bitrate picture isn't going to look anywhere is near as good a PS of a higher bitrate picture. If you use had a DVD-RAM/-R or a DVD-RW/-R you could benefit from that increase and (if recording to DVD-RW or DVD-R) will still be able to use it on your planned Yamaha. With regards to which I'm yet to see a 'budget' range player hold a candle on PS to a high end machine though. All that said though I only have NTSC Progressive Scan at the moment (with a Projector) so can't comment.

    It is and it isn't. I accept DVD+RW as a format is around to stay (as is DVD-RAM/-RW/-R) but Philips have shown considerable disloyalty to their customers in the past, e.g. CDi, V2000. Thus a sudden drop from the PVR market could happen at the drop of a hat (a BluRay hat perhaps?). Disks will still be available though (due to PC uses) so that's not such an issue. But it is a consideration as people need to think ahead to what formats will be supported in the next Gen DVD (and that is currently only the official formats).

    Glad I'm not the only one ;)
     
  17. calscot

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    I'll agree with that but my point was that +RW didn't deserve the bashing: +RW = good, -RW = better, -RW & -RAM = best (omitting HDD).

    I'm not so sure, I find SP (2hr) mode acceptable compared to HQ (1hr) mode with slightly increased blockiness, but both have the dreaded diagonal jaggies, line twitter and moire patterns that I find unacceptable.

    I'd rather have progressive SP mode to interlaced HQ mode.

    Fair enough but remember that +RW and +R try to emulate DVD-ROM which is why they'll work in old machines which are also never designed for the formats. So I think if DVD-ROM is supported then +RW and +R have a 70% chance of working in the future along with the fact it will probably be quite cheap to make new gen players compatible so why miss it out and alienate a large proportion of customers?

    Then again if you get a new blu ray, you'll probably sell your dvdr and include all your rewritable media to sweeten the sale, or give it to family. So as long as +R's play (if you have any) then you're ok.

    Alternatively keep or buy a cheap compitible dvd player.

    When high def and blue ray come along you probably won't want your previous recordings anyway - I haven't watched a vhs video since I bought my dvdr and nor would I want to.

    Cheers,
    Cal.
     

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