Discussion in 'Desktop & Laptop Computers Forum' started by Ken, Apr 4, 2005.
Could someone enlighten me; are smooth pans on a 60hz display possible, with PAL movies?
AFAIK using a normal PC it isn't possible. The problem is that PAL video is 25fps so if you're playing that back at 60fps then something has to give.
Thanks for the reply Robin, that was my understanding also, I just hoped that I had missed something.
I don't have any problem with smooth pans on 60hz.
Contrary to what technicals you can come up with most digital lcd panels refresh at 60hz anyway. There is a lot going on between your source/software and display that contribute to smooth pans. There may not be one magic ingredient that enables this.
What is your source?
Ken what display are you using? I have had a lot of issues with my RD65 a DLP rear pro set. It wouldnt play a NTSC (60hz) disc without judder. I had to use powerstrip set at 49.83hz to cure the problem.
I use TheaterTek on a HCPC/6600Gt over vga to a Sharp Z9000 projector, running at 1280x720 with 60hz refresh; unfortunately it is the only frequency that it will sync at.
As PAL is 25 fps and the refresh 60hz they are not divisable, so doesn't this mean syncing them is going to be a problem without some sort of intervention?
Edit: Slight change in direction.
Slow pans are ok, it's really fast action stuff that seems to be jerky, like it's trying to catch up with it's self.
Tried powerstrip 50hz etc
Installed Maxtor sata hd with 16 mb cashe.. seen judders less frequent.
Installed Mystique sound card... Wonderbar !
Never seen a judder or stutter since. smooths pans etc with all my reg. 1 and 2 DVDs
Dont ask mw how it just works + converts anylog 5.1 to Dolby Digital 5.1 on the fly on my IMAX HD discs.
That's what I was saying, which is why setting to around 50 is needed, I had to set mine to 50.039 due to inaccuracies in the card's clock generator. The problem is video frame-rate related.
A good test for PAL judder are Jackson's LOTR films, he uses large pans a lot. Take the opening of Chapter 2 in FOTR with the close-up pan of the map and as it pulls out, alternatively the opening of TTT with the camera pan right and the left over the mountain range.
Guess I'm SOL as my projector will only accept a refresh rate of 60hz for 1280x720 sizing; a future upgrade I expect.
You could try the audio hardware RLT has since he says there are no problems, though nothing I've ever read would explain such an observation.
BTW, while we are on this subject if you use meedio a plugin will be released soon that will change your refresh depending on the fps of video playing
RLT; Where did you get the Mystique card from?
I am willing to try a different sound card as m-audio have had consistantly poor drivers; does anyone else have experience of this card?
Which M-Audio Card do you have? I have an audiophile 2596 which is great.
BTW have you tried powerstrip for different refreshes? like 50/72/75?
CrispyXUK; I have a 2496 with 48a drivers which are the best they have yet supplied, but that doesn't mean they are perfect, maybe they are; but it is a fact that earlier drivers caused all sorts of problems with DVD playback and still may be to some extent.
As far as powerstrip is concerned, I can only use 60hz, hence the thread title.
I use the latest drivers which work fine, default card for windows is set as M-Audio Multi, make sure you set SPDIF to independent in its control panel with all outputs to multi mixer, works without a hitch for me.
But is your projector running at 60hz refresh? This my problem.
Mystique 7.1 sound card
Bought mine off EBay where the first batch was sold, but theres a couple of distributers now I believe.
My systems specs
ASUS P4C800E MB
Mator 250GB 16mb cashe HD
Pentium 3.2 prescott
Radeon 9600 xt Graphics 256mb
Have followed all the advise on forums over last year and this.
Spent hours config Powerstrip, tried reclock, which didn't work with Power DVD causing audio problems when selecting DTS or D.D
Got 'fed up' and rid myself of above complications and just ran 1280x720 direct from 9600xt, which appeared to give a slightly cleaner more detailed image anyway.
"Back to basics" but still had occational Judder abount 3 or 4 times while watching a film, but picture quality was worth it, with pans always being smooth.
Might just be lucky, but since installing sound card everthing is just seems to work with every DVD "so far".
RLT; Thanks for the reply. What refresh rate do you use.
Just the standard 60hz to match the display
I will try the Mystique when it comes available. RTL; you got that card for a good price when they first released the card on ebay.
Why is it that manufacturers sell 60hz displays in a part of the world that is all 50hz?
It will have everything to do with where they are made and the biggest markets.....
Is there somewhere where I can read up on all this stuff? I'm now getting to the stage where I feel I need a technical education on this visual stuff. I have looked at http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html
which is excellent, but seems more related to NTSC although Pal is mentioned. I also get a bit confused with allowable refresh rates and resolutions, esp in relation to powerstrip. Nothing specific... though I did watch the Liverpool match last night using a recorded tv signal, uhf aerial through pvr150mce through 9600 via vga-scart to 32 inch 100Hz crt and found it a bit tiring to watch. There were quite a lot of artifacts as the picture panned across the stands for instance or the players moved. I assume this is combing etc? On the contrary the series on Amazon diving is very good quality, but not a lot happens, does it. Haven't got round to watching a dvd in anger yet.
Found an easier guide on the same place:
Does anyone have a uk centric version, or the timings, parameters? I'm sure they're around somehwere, but as my mate pointed out, I'm a lazy...
The more I start getting my head around all this stuff the more amazed I am that we can actually watch tv and dvd at all!
Smooth pans aren't possible running PAL films at 60Hz, the very best you can hope for is failry consistant stutter.
Watched LOTR Fellowship last night, R2, battle at opening sequence with smooth pans, NO judder, NO jitter, with No powerstrip and NO reclock, at standard 60hz straight from my 9600 xt @ 1280x720
Since installation of Mystique sound card "perfection"
Must have hit perfect combination of hareware, see above.
RLT, I'm intrigued to know how you're converting the Hi-Def 5.1 on the fly... I'm struggling to do this... and I think my P4P800-VM will have the same onboard sound as yours.
I've tried playing with AC3Filter and Zoomplayer but no joy...
Mystique sound card has a real time encoder, converting analog 5.1 to dolb.dig 5.1 on the fly, (or 7.1), via spdf just by selecting option on Mystique sound card menu and off you go works a treat.......... utopia !
Obviously on board sound now disabled.
RLT - you have stutter - you just havent seen it yet (which is good btw). If you compared the playback of PAL @ 50Hz to 60Hz you would then see it, FOREVER. Its a curse. I didnt see it for over a year with my first projector playing PAL @ 60Hz then one day, our of the blue, I noticed a small stutter. I then found out my projector did 50HZ so tried that and oh my god - it hit me. Id been watching stuttering for over a year!
Played DVD's on my Yamakawa DVD player which has options for scaling @ PAL 50hz and NTSC which gave me smooth pans no jitters stutters stalls..etc played fine.
Which it didn't if I forgot to select the correct settings, (so I know what the stutters look like) plus I've put up with them on the PC for long enough.
Powerstrip helped but wasn't perfect.
Get same smooth play back from my PC set up for Pal reg.2 and NTSC reg 1 as I did from the DVD player, but with much better pic. qualitity.
Since I installed the Mystique sound card,instant cure !
Don't ask me how, it just works.
I also get flawless playback of both PAL and NTSC dvd's on 60Hz displays.
its amazing how confused people get in regards to how graphics cards output video. at the end of the day the format of the DVD doesn't matter when using a PC for playback (unless you do something stupid like trying to force certain scan rates on the graphics card).
a PC outputs to an LCD panel or monitor at 60Hz, thats 60 "Full" frames a second... not interlaced. just for ease of understanding lets call them "snapshots". The reason I call them snapshots is because you're essentially taking snapshots of the graphics card's frame buffer.Whether thats a video your currently playing, a computer game or just the windows desktop wallpaper. it simply doesn't matter.
When playing a PAL dvd using powerdvd it de-interlaces the frames into full frames and plays the video smoothly without showing the interlaced frames. now if you're taking snapshots of this playback at a constant 60 times a second why would you see any judder in the playback? thats right.. you wouldn't.. and you don't.
As long as you output a normal VGA or DVI signal you'll be fine. don't force the card to output PAL or NTSC.. you don't need too.. thats why you get judder.
I'm not sure the way I've explained it makes total sense so wah-lah.. a diagram.
still don't know whether I've explained that in an understandable way.. but well.. there you go. it makes sense to me.
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