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Small CRT projector for small living room? Or its DLP - erk.

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by chrisgeary, May 24, 2005.

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  1. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    I am having to part company with my Barco 801s. It's not the last word in CRT projectors, but its picture never failed to impress me. But its just too large for my new living room. Before I start looking at DLP projectors etc, is there such a thing as a small CRT projector for under £2k ? By small, I mean about half the size of my 801s.

    I just cannot see myself being satisfied with a digital projector, although I have not actually had any demos, so perhaps I'm being unfair, but the odd LCD PJ I have seen has been utterly pants.
     
  2. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    Half the size is a bit ambitious, but 2/3rd is achievable. Dwin is about the smallest footprint of all the brands, but they are rare in the UK. Sony D50 and Seleco 4XX series & 500 have a smaller footprint than your 801. The Sony is relatively tall, so it feels like its hanging a bit lower from the ceiling. The Selecos use a slimmer chassis so they're less intrusive. NEC might be worth a look. I don't know their range well enough to point you in the right direction, but others on this forum should be able to help.

    Regards
     
  3. Vince M

    Vince M
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    The NEC PG range have a very small footprint and have the colour filtered lens`..cracking little crt..the 6PG EXTRA is a bit brighter than the bog standard 6PG.
    They were re-badged as Runco IDP/DTV 900`S..if you can find one of these you get a nice black finish.

    :smashin:
     
  4. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    so we've had Sony, Dwin NEC I guess that leaves a plug for barco 600 and 700 sreies and the Electrohome 3000 series.
     
  5. chrisgeary

    chrisgeary
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    thanks all. i suspect that 2/3 size still wont be small enough for WAF. as a CRT lover, will DLP utterly disappoint in every way?
     
  6. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    DLP will do some things better, some things worse. If it's a choice of that or no picture at all then I'm guessing it's a compromise you need to make. I'm betting she'll love it and you'll learn to live with it. :)
     
  7. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Worth mentioning is that for your budget-pic wise-your going to get an awful lot more quality with crt for the 2k mark than you will with digital.
    A NEC 6PG EXTRA..or a Sony D50..will give dlp costing upto 6k a bit of a battle-and then some..
    IF you cannot go the crt route,then i would recommend the Sony HS50..tiddly..nice little pic..decent blacks.. :thumbsup:
     
  8. AndyFov

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    The NEC PG series may be smaller than your typical CRT, but they're still blummin' massive. I'd recommend something like a Seleco 400 or 500, they're about as pretty as a CRT can get.

    I've recently bought a Sony HS10 LCD, that's in place of my old Nec 9pg... I had to laugh today, I left the room, and returned back in and found my little boy stood on a chair waving his hands around and saying "look daddy, I'm making shadows on the screen" The funny thing was I didn't even have a dvd in the player at that point, and he was making shadows on "black". You'd not get that with CRT :)

    I initially found the LCD unwatchable, but after a few hours you become accustomed to non-blacks, and your brain is tricked into accepting the status quo. For 95% of the time I'm now happy... In some ways it's better than CRT, take for instance things filmed in unlit corridors and in darkness - you can't make out a damn thing. It's just as it would be were you in those dark places yourself. ;)
     
  9. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Andy,
    When did you cross to the "Darkside"? :) :)
     
  10. Vince M

    Vince M
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    ..sorry,,meant the "not so Darkside"...ouccchhhh!!!.sorry..that was below the belt! :eek: :eek:

    ..said in the best possible taste!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) :)
     
  11. AndyFov

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    Don't worry, I'm thick skinned.

    I had my 9pg for about a year, but never had a ceiling mount for it. I did what I could with setup, but was never happy with colour accuracy. My installation was also untidy and the floor mounting plan didn't work in theory as well as I thought it would. My little boy also kept looking into the lenses, and to get the ideal throw the pj had to be slap bang where I wanted the sofa,

    I've now replaced all that with with a tidy little box bolted to the ceiling. Going digital I've lost that analogue easy to watch quality CRT has, and blacks are a distant memory. F1 today was perfectly tolerable though, and I'm kinda satisfied. Even with my dodgy install, the NEC gave a finer picture, even though I never got to the root of the over-saturated yellows and reds... But I've sacrificed that for the sake of an easy life - horses for courses. I'm in no hurry to buy another crt, but I'm quite impulsive, so I'll never say never... I nearly jumped on the Marquee 7500 that's on the classifieds board for £999 earlier this week.

    I know you were joking with your "dark side" jibe, but I really think more people need to be positive about the good things in each of the projection technologies. In terms of ease of setup the LCD pj is just fabulous. PC, Powerstrip, pick a HD resolution suitable for the pj's panel, and away you go. No pots to fiddle with, no astig magnets to tweak, no risk of getting a 30,000 volt from the HT circuit. :) There's so many things you just don't have to worry about - but does that take away all the fun? I know I spent far more time tweaking my crt projector than I ever did watching movies with it.

    Andy
     
  12. Vince M

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    Andy,
    Strange as it may seem Im totally with you,though no-one has been a stronger advocate of quality crt than I-and the fabulous pictures that can be produced.
    As you rightly say though,its some fuffing about to get it bang on,another misconception in some qtr`s seems to be if you havent got a 9" showing hidef at 1080p You may as well shoot yourself in the head! :thumbsdow Its like the old "snobbery" that used to be(..and still is)attached to high end hi-fi.
    I think in some respects this mentality has put a nail in crt`s "coffin",It has sold an ethic that crt is really difficult to set up-so you MUST have an installer,It has sold an ethic of only such and such model is worth having..
    For years in the u.k.Marquees,NECS..and Sonys were bad mouthed.
    8" LC models hardly got a look in-which is madness,like I said before you had a choice mainly of Barco,Barco..and Barco.. :)
    ..Now I love Barco models,but we didnt have the choice that for example the yanks had..
    The real truth is of course..ALL 8" crts will give you a cracking pic..some of the better 7"-and the PG series may well be top of the tree-can also give you a cracking pic!
    ..and of course crts ..though more tricky to setup than a dlp/lcd..are NOWHERE near as tricky as some people would have you believe.

    Nevertheless,a lot of people are frightened to go near crt because of the assumed high level of complexity,because of the fear of "hidden" setup costs,because of the size..(and they can be hidden-not as easily granted..but then a 2ft by 2ft coffee table would look a bit weird :D :D )-and finally because in the past they cost a bomb!

    Now I can only say what I have experienced in the last couple of years,for every one that has opted for an install,three have not..recently I had a customer that bought a Marquee that needed a new green tube,so I arranged a new green for him,arranged for a guy to do it..he then elected to do it himself...and done it..read up..asked a few questions..I thought it was excellent..but of course being practical the installer lost dough.

    I try and tell it like it is,most folk can install/setup a crt IF they can be bothered..some would rather have it done for them.
    Of course a pro would initially do a better job-we know that,nevertheless,its not brain surgery.
    Fiddling with a car engine is not brain surgery,but it holds no interest for me whatsover-thats not because I cant do it,its because I dont want to!!..and there are many like that with crt..

    Nevertheless,these factors have put people off,what I have tried to do is make it painless both ways,you want to have a crack yourself? i`ll help you..if you cant be a**ed..i`ll get it all done for you. :smashin:

    Now of course even with an install ,this is more cost effective than it used to be..and as such not quite so painful..I mean a top 8" with a scaler & install-in some case for less that 3k..

    Thats a different scenario for someone who is considering a mid range dlp..

    Something that also happened was that some crt sellers wouldnt do PX UNLESS they had sold that crt in the first place,so a lot of guys were stuck and had difficulty upgrading to that ultimate crt..
    As an example,I will take ANY good nick crt in PX.

    I have tried to address a lot of the "objections" with crt ,I have tried not to sing an elitist song.

    What Home Cinema should be about is the individual aiming to get the best picture they can-however, if they cant consider crt it shouldnt really because because of any of the above-these can be overcome.

    What of course is more difficult to overcome is a small room that just wont..whatever..accomodate the extra bulk of crt.
    With the exception noted above though,in the main- if crt has been difficult for someone that is because someone has not made it easy for them(helped them)-one way or the other! :)


    In an ideal world we would just say;-"I want the best picture for my budget of "x".."the technology used to produce it wouldnt be important-why would it..why would it be important if it was a 2ft..or a 5ft box..as long as it could be accomodated...5 years ago unless your budget was 15-20k this could not have been achieved.
    Now it can,now the consumer has the choice of ANY technology within their budget..its great to finally have that choice after all these years! :thumbsup:
     
  13. cosaw

    cosaw
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    Amen to that!

    It was only 24 months ago that I got interested in crt and couldn't envisage being able to afford such a pojector but decided that I would aim for one. Well I now own a modest crt pj (with small problems that I hope to fix) and feel privaledged to be able to do so on my budget. My aim is to extract the best I can from the unit and aim for 576p for dvd. The picture is cracking! If you are willing to take a real interest in the technology and do your own setup then this is where you can save the money - as I did. If you are on a modest budget but you have the inclination to do the work yourself and have the room space then now is a far better time to get yourself a crt pj than it was say 10 years ago purely on the basis of cost.

    It is the size (usually a WAF/SAF problem) and relative complexity in comparison to LCD/DLP which obviously makes LCD/DLP units favourable to many. CRTs are in no way obsolete when it comes to performance and in many ways have always been a technology ahead of their time. To reiterate if you're willing to get to know crt technology then why not take advantage of the current situation and also help extend the life of crt technology while it can still offer us such good results? The same argument could in many ways be directed to CRT TVs (even while still interlaced) versus plasma and lcd units. I can't see myself enjoying a plasma picture any time soon certainly not on my budget.

    Simon
     
  14. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Excellent post Simon! :smashin:
     
  15. crteaman

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    Hi Vince,

    Those qtr's you refer to wouldnt be aimed at me would they perchance? strange really that my previous unit for the six month period prior to aquiring the 9500 was a 12000 hour barco D808 s.
    As far as snobbery is concerned I would like to point out that the first piece of kit I bought years ago which led me into this hobby was an Akai vcr with dolby surround built into it.
    My point is, it has taken me years and years to build my kit to the level its currently at, my penalty for this is, I dont live in a big fancy house or drive a flash car, home cinema is not only my hobby its also my work.
    Eight inch Lc units were not popular here in blighty because of cost thats all, they alway's commanded a large premium over their non LC bretheren.

    james
     
  16. Vince M

    Vince M
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    James,
    Under no circumstances is this aimed at you,I have heard through the grapevine you are a perfectionist-certainly not an elitist.I have only heard top things about you and have HUGE respect for how you are trying to push the bar on picture quality with crt. :smashin:
    I think you are a top example of how someone can build a stunning system over time.
    I spoke generally about big companies etc..and the huge costs one had to face a few years ago. :thumbsup:
    Rgds,
    Vince
     
  17. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Forgot to mention,yes this is a good point,nevertheless we didnt even have the choice-I remember about 10 years ago,spending all day trying to track down a Marquee for a demo-the only company I could find that had one was REFLEX-remember them? and the ones they had were all installed in corporate boardrooms.
    But yes,they were a load of dough then!!..couldn`t have afforded one if I had of seen one!! :)
    The great thing is ,that now 8 LC IS affordable-and I think currently the greatest bargain in AVDOM..in fact, ALL quality 8" crt`s are one heck of a bargain now for ther quality on offer.
    ..Of course so are 9" in comparison to their original costs,I mean you think of these 30k+ giants from 5/6 years ago available for a fifth of the cost!!..Awesome. :smashin:
     
  18. sbowler

    sbowler
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    yes crt quality cant be beat but for the cost and convenience budget dlp and lcd will always win out.
    i am not a fan of dlp, rainbows to noticable to me. and the latest crop of lcds have come a long way now. just got the pannie 700e running with pioneer 668i via HDNI, onto 5ft screen, and more than happy with the resuflts also the price of th pj is now very low bringing quality to the masses thats why CRTs are dying out
     
  19. Vince M

    Vince M
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    I agree on the convenience front,but cost wise there are still some great bargains to be had with crt..especially crts like the Sony D50-WHICH i.m.h.o. has the beating pic wise of something like the Infocus 7200-by way of comparison...The NEC PG range as well are cracking crt`s for the money!
    I totally dont agree though that crt`s are dying out-in fact the opposite is true especially with regards 8" and 9" crt-which owing to their reduced cost now has made them awesome bargains in the Home Cinema world.
    As such, more and more consumers are embracing ,whereas in the past-owing to the high cost-crts were only in the domain of the rich and the corporate.
    Certainly,speaking for myself ,I cant buy `em fast enough..I have back orders waiting for various models and definately busier than last year. :thumbsup:
    I think with all respect that in a lot of ways it pays to stick with the acknowledged picture champ for a few years more UNTIL there is something in the digital world that can at least equal the top crt`s.
    As you know with digital projectors they are superceded so fast..every year a new model coming out -effectively devaluing your purchase significantly.
    In my view,it makes sense to purchase a 20k(originally) crt for a couple of grand as opposed to a 2k digital that only has 800 quids of stuff inside..and in fact winds up being sold 18months later for a few hundred quid.

    I had a Sony VPL 12HT that cost me 6k..that I sold 18 months later for 2.8k!!

    Having said this,I think the Panny AE 700 one of the very few LCD purchases that makes sense,it doesn`t cost a lot to start with-so you wont take a massive hit when you sell it.. :smashin:
     
  20. BenC

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    My Seleco SVP-400 Plus (with glass lenses and Iscan and less than 1500 hours) will be up for sale in the next month or so. Not sure if it would be small enough though...
     
  21. Mad Mr H

    Mad Mr H
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    HI,

    Im looking for an 801s data or graphics (see my blending post)

    I can offer you a deal on a number of NEW dlp projectors (admin - remove this if im not allowed to offer that!)

    If you watch close up then you will hate the dlp picture to start with, as time goes on you will forget the crt days (SHAME ON YOU)

    If you sit a reasonable distance away then picture is better (NO - not like in the next room!)

    Many of my customers these days want DLP - its easy to use, does not need to pay me to set it up! small.....blah blah blah etc.

    For those who have crt, they all know the picture is better, but needs must and usually the decision to leave crt is a question of "cant we get rid of that ugly thing yet" (dont all point at me)
     
  22. gazzzman

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    don't want to be too controversial
    you have owned a crt right?
    RIGHT NOW THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A DLP AS GOOD!!!
    don't believe the hype!
    and the lamp cost will cripple you!!!
    should I mention there is no such thing as a good plasma either?
    (life expectancy 2 years use loads of electricity poor motion poor dynamic range etc!)
    sorry I have to say these things and eventually when the dlps are lit by organic led's or something then they may get to be really good but having installed literally hundreds of projectors there is still NOTHING at reasonable money and running costs to touch a even reasonable crt unit!
     
  23. crteaman

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    Ah ha, a man who clearly knows his onions.


    james
     
  24. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Guy Kuo (Ovation, Avia fame) has a CRT and bought an NEC HT1000 for watching tv on (CRT for movies). By using an fl-day filter to tweak the image and increase the contrast ratio, he got the little NEC to be 90% as good as he CRT, and in some cases he preffered it. That's his opinion of course, but he does know something about video and he isn't biased so I would suggest that someone who is thinking of digital should try to get a decent demo and make up their own minds. :)

    Gary.
     
  25. Vince M

    Vince M
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    The same Guy Kuo I might point out for those that dont know that took a NEC 135 to a shootout with a Sharp Z-1200 dlp and then discovered during the shootout that there was problems with the NEC..on a subsequent shootout with a perfectly performing G70,the Sharp came second.
    Now one may query why the NEC 135 wasnt thoroughly gone over before the shootout?
    This points out what we all of course know,no matter how venerable and knowledgable someone is -they are not infallible :smashin:
    Im not big on this trend of putting someones name in the frame as an example of;-"It must be good because so and so said so.."
    Now of course I dont say this to demean Guy,what he has done with AVIA and notably his focus guide to crt is excellent-only that he is human and would be the first to say;-"find out for yourself..take no-ones word for it"..go and have a demo of all the technologies and make your own mind up. :thumbsup:
     
  26. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    My point exactly. :)

    Forgot to add - Guy now owns an Optoma H79. :D

    Gary.
     
  27. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Blimey? I guess we had all better sell our crt`s and go and get the Optoma if GUYS got one? :eek: :eek:

    ..I hope to christ Guy never sticks his head in the gas oven the AVS membership will drop by 50%!!! :D :rotfl:

    ..Seriously though-(only kiddin Guy! :smashin:),saw an Optoma myself last week(well the H78) ,nice little unit and could give non LC 8" crt units and 7" crt a bit of a run for their money ignoring of course the poorer black performance of the optoma and the lack of depth..Nevertheless,Its the first dlp ive seen for sensible money that looks nice.
    But after I had a look the wife said(having lived with a 8"LC model recently..well the milkmans not interested!! :) )..quote;-"Not as good as crt yet are they".
    Now i`m not putting the missus up as competition to the venerable opinion of Guy Kuo :eek: :eek: ..but her view was without all the pretensions of various judgements/recommendations that influence, that us av nuts can get caught up in.
    Now me? well I was spoilt having looked at a Cine 9 the week before..THATS a picture. :smashin:
     
  28. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Guy is actualy a late-comer to avs so I doubt his lack of membership would make any difference. :) The point is that if digitals are so bad, why are videophiles like him buying them? I only mentioned Guy because he is someone of some renown and is well qualified, but if I'd said that a mate threw out his CRT to buy a digital it wouldn't have had the same weight of example. ;)

    I don't think lamp projectors will ever achieve the true blacks that CRTs can achieve unless the dynamic iris's that are now becoming available can do it well enough. If you think DLP is bad you aught to see the black (really grey) level at the cinema! Add any ambient light at all to a room and the contrast ratio drops like a stone - and that's what we have at cinemas these days, with exit lights and some dim spot lights left on for 'safety' purposes. If you aim is to replicate the cinema you can do it better with ease at home provided you have a light controlled room of course. Any ambient light and your CR will be maybe 100:1 at best, regardless of the technology and your ANSI will suffer too. Any light walls in your room and your ANSI will be reduced as well, so for the best image reproduction people must consider the room as part of the viewing environment and not just the display.

    You can always add lens filters to digitals to increase the contrast ratio (after RGB recalibration) as well as reduce the black level, but despite their comparatively reduced CR, digitals do excel in ANSI contrast which is when you have both bright and dark scenes in the same frame. As you say, non LC CRTs struggle here and this aspect of image reproduction is quite important because you get more scenes of light and dark then you do just pure black. Funny you should mention 7" and 8" non LC CRT like that - I've seen similar comments to yours reiterated over on avs that good digitals are now the equivalent of 7" and possibly 8" CRT in many respects so they've definitely come a long way in a few short years. Whether or not they will match the good 9" beasts (and I've seen one too at Event II) is another thing though.

    Gary.
     
  29. crteaman

    crteaman
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    He he, joel silver has a cine 9 on a 72" screen..............


    james
     
  30. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Gary,
    35mm has an equivalent of about 4,000 lines-though of course this is an estimate as film is "grain" not lines...Now agreed that a lot of cinemas dont have the light too well controlled-because they cant ..they have to cater for the fact that at any point someone may want to buy a hot dog or go to the loo.
    But I have watched movies in the Empire Leicester square..and the Odeon where its been fairly close to blackout with a pristine print and the pic has been awesome..I have also watched IMAX on 70mm-which is the ultimate..3d presentations as well.
    In these setups the black level presentation is not too shoddy :smashin:
    Now I would love to have a 35mm setup..though of course the movies are pricey and though its not illegal to watch them in the home..strictly speaking its illegal to buy/sell them...This is why its "underground"....mind you,last week I was offered a superb print of Spiderman for £100 :)..I was tempted for this to be the first movie of my planned 35mm setup-one day :)

    But for now,the closest you can get and arguably better in some areas-is 9" crt.
    But thats the two choices..35mm and 9" crt..for the ultimate pic at the `mo.
    One is unaffordable(unless you source lots of s/hand stuff-and thats not easy)..the other is ..now ..affordable.

    Now,lets examine one area that is seldom spoken of with regards to crt..one great advantage it has over digitals..
    Continuity..by that I mean continuance of production of a certain crt..once it was good enough,you could be certain that the model you had purchased would NOT be superceeded the following year...you always had ..on average with crt ,3 or 4 years of the same model..sure on some models you could buy upgrades...but the base model was the same.
    VDC are still producing Marquee`s essentially the same as Electrohome were 10 years ago.
    If it aint broke why fix it? and still when you look at the Marquee 9500LC for example-pic quality wise it may be edged by the Cine 9..but that it.
    Soon i` will be having a real modded up Marquee 9500LC..with every conceivable mod known to man..I have a feeling it will be a slither away from a Cine 9..if it is..
    But anyway,you could have bought a Marquee 9500LC- 8 years ago and NEVER needed to upgrade..
    You could buy a marquee now..keep it for another 5 years..let the digital projectors with their monthly supercedences wash over your head..save yourself a bundle of money ..and still in 5 years from now have a projector that may not be beaten..equalled possibly..beaten?..personally I doubt it..

    5 years ago us crt`ers were told that crt is dead..its still recognised as the best medium for the projected image 5 years later.

    I think it will be in 5 years time...and if the new phospher coating happens? dont be surprised to see a massive resurrgence of crt owners.

    With this phospher there is talk of 10 times the contrast and brightess levels available to crt now..can you imagine(based on William Phelps calibrated CR for a G90..another venerable chappy for those that dont know :) ..) a crt with a contrast ratio of 90,000:1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Who then gives a monkeys about ANSI CR..and on/off..(Which is frankly a very shaky argument by digital owners to justify an improvement in the way a digital may handle..)

    ..and remember as well,the top crt`s that are sill iceing the best digitals are technology 8-10 years old..can you imagine what will happen if someone decides to manufacture a new top crt..can you imagine how stunning it could be?..and dont be too surprised to see this happen.

    Yes digitals are a lot better than they were..and they will get better ..every few months..a purchasers nightmare because no sooner have you bought the HD+ CHIP DLP..then theres the HD+ DARK CHIP ..Then there will be the HD+ "NEGRO" CHIP..then the HD+ 3..Then the HD+3 "AS DARK AS THE DARKEST PIT IN CALCUTTA" chip..then the HD4+"fudge ME,I CANT SEE A THING" chip.. :rotfl: :rotfl:

    No sooner has a digital purchasor put there hand in their pocket and the bloody things devalued.. :eek:

    There will be stiff challenge for crt..but I think it may come via GLV...dlp and lcd are products for the masses true-and as such most have not been designed or produced from a "money no object" standpoint as the top crt`s were.

    Heres the answer,buy a top crt..use for the next 5 years and then look around and take a view-then if there is something better,guess what? you will have saved enough money by NOT jumping on the dlp/lcd bandwagon now,to buy it :thumbsup: (Here I am talking of folk who have the room)

    We all "know this makes sense" as that other very venerable member of society- Derek "dim the lights" Trotter has advised us many times.

    He is not at present an AVS forum member I must point out,though the word spreads and Bill Cushman(famed reviewer) has now changed his name to Bill Cushtyman. :rotfl:
     
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