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'Slow Motion' Effect on Pioneer 43" and 50"

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by Dr Pete, Mar 21, 2005.

  1. Dr Pete

    Dr Pete
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    I'm about to buy a Pioneer PDP505HD plasma. In the broadcast TV realm I'll be watching a fair amout of "Aussie Rules" footy. A dealer here has tried to steer me clear of the Pioneers because of shudder of fast moving images, which he called a framing effect, particularly of sports such as cricket and football. This has also been echoed by member superpixel:

    "With DVDs on the HDMI it is a great screen, BUT with other sources/connections it is so hopeless that i wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
    There is motion pixellation, judder and a 'slow-motion' effect that is virtually, if not completely, absent with the DVD-HDMI feed. Its not a slight effect, it plagues the picture - and disabling noise-reduction features and changing the settings does virtually nothing to help. I think it has nothing to do with the Pioneer panel and everything to do with the media box electronics..."

    in the Pioneer PDP-505XDE worth it? thread.
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198122

    My questions to other Pio owners out there (and superpixel) are:

    1) Do you notice this 'slow-motion' effect? (I didn't in the store but I suspect I would given time; if it is there)

    2) Does anyone know what its root cause is?

    3) If its almost absent on the HDMI feed, would you expect it to be reduced coming from a digital set-top box with DVI? (you need a separate digital tuner here in Aus)

    4) Can the effect be reduced?

    5) Could it be that the screen refresh rate (72hz I beleive) is a resonant frequency of some fluro lights, creating a slight stroboscopic effect? I imagine this would be evident in stores rather in most homes as homes generally have incandescent lights.

    6) If the situation is pretty bad as superpixel suggests and sports fans should consider another screen, which screen does sports best?

    Thanks for any thoughts
    P.
     
  2. danny daniell

    danny daniell
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    I do occasionally experience that effect,but to me it is mild & I dont really find it detrimental to the overall viewing experience....as i said in my contribution to that thread, once Sky hops over to HD & signals are viewed via the HDMI connection,i expect this minor anomalie to all but disappear.

    Dan :)
     
  3. mikeycrawford

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    Can't say I've noticed this slo-mo effect myself on a 504HDE. How does it manifest itself? What should I be looking for? I watch a fair bit of footy on Sky Sports/BBC/ITV and Setanta and it looks fine to me (even the grass looks OK with all the image enhancements stuff turned off)

    On an old Sony 32" CRT I used to see problems when credits ran at the end of programs, a certain jerkiness making them hard to read, and the Pioneer exhibits this to a lesser extent (nowhere near as bad). Something to do with the 100Hz of the Sony I believe. Is this what would be referred to as judder.

    Some have mentioned a jerkiness to the ticker on things like Sky Sports and Sky News, but again I don't see it ... maybe I'm just blocking these things out because the screen cost £4.5K :)
     
  4. Dr Pete

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    It was described to me as normal speed motion but looking as if it were slow motion. Thus I suspect it appears as jerkiness as if jumping from frame to frame but in reality perhaps missing real frames or strobing such that every nth frame is more distinct.

    Remember that I have not seen it as yet but the sales rep was so adamant it that it was blatently obvious that I wondered if we were looking at the same screen. He said he would find it tiring to watch sport with this defect! Obviously superpixel think so as well.
     
  5. mikeycrawford

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    hmmm, the only other "effect" I have noticed is that if there is a (extreme) close up of a player as he runs along past the advertising hoardings sometimes I see dark patches/flashes appear in the hoarding signs, particularly against any white, but only for a moment ... not quite a strobe effect and not really off putting, but noticeable. The player looks fine (unless he plays for Rangers of course :) ). Long shots look fine

    I have SKY+ and can recreate the effect. It is quite consisent. It doesn't appear on the CRT though.

    Does anyone have a name for this effect ... or is it just PIOs?
     
  6. Dr Pete

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    The sales rep was attempting to point it out as the Aussies whacked NZ to another (!)boundary in the cricket and the camera followed the happy path of the ball.

    Maybe its something to do with a continuous background and the processor box not picking up which parts of the screen to update...
     
  7. oliverlim

    oliverlim
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    Basically look at a object that is panning with a very bright background. you will notice that the object top half seems to move a fraction before the bottom half. I believe the effect is called tearing.....

    I believe the reason this happens is because the PIO plasma convert all signals 50 or 60hz to 70hz internally.

    Oliver
     
  8. MR ETOME

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    I get this juddering effect if watching sky with pure cinema set to advanced.
    With pure cinema set to off, the picture pans smoothly.
     
  9. superpixel

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    sorry, my decscriptions and choices of phrase aren't up to much!

    there's a few issues with the Pioneer's handling of motion, but what i call the 'slow-motion' one is not something you have to spot for or wait once in a blue moon for the right pan or something. it is on EVERYTHING. it is very obvious, especially if you relax and stop concentrating on analysing the picture...and if you have any other TV next to it, then it is blindingly obvious..youd think the Pioneer had some strange cheap video effect running.

    the best way i can describe it (and i struggle for the right word, its bugging me)...is as follows:

    almost all video is shot/produced to look live.
    sometimes you get programmes deliberately produced to look non-live..im sure theres a word for it, but i cant recall it...the Pioneer makes everything look like this

    another way to describe is imagine everything running at half frame rate...

    a simple thing like a newsreader's movements are ideal for showing this up...fast things like sport etc, if anything are more favourable as they mask it
     
  10. Dr Pete

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    I know the effect you mean, although I don't know the name for it either. I'll look for it next time I'm in a store. I think its like a lot of these defects, once you notice it and it annoys you, it really gets to you. While I think the prozac class of drugs may help with this, this solution is a bit drastic!
     
  11. attach

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    Yeah turn pure cinema off and you will be fine m8
     
  12. superpixel

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    doc pete,

    i wouldn't say its one of those minor defects at all, quite the reverse...

    i always do the 'half-hour' test before buying now: sit down and watch half hour of TV on a properly setup screen, with the family/friends if possible, and then decide what you think.

    it took me a few minutes of watching TV on the Pioneer before I put my finger on what was strange about the picture...it took my Mum about 20 seconds to ask 'its nice, but why is everyone in slow-motion?'

    and the phrase stuck, im afraid...maybe a prozac now and again wouldn't do the old dear much harm now you mention it...

    30 minutes should show up a lot of intolerable noise and pixellation on movement too..."and now theyre going blurry" as mrs superpixel said

    if you dont notice anything too bad, then at least youve tried it out good and proper, and can buy with peace of mind! best of luck
     
  13. Leerock

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    I ve noticed this effect too, not only on my pio but on my dad s philips lcd too.
    I supposed that this is an effect caused by all plasma and lcd screens due to the reason that they are progressive.
    It s an effect that you notice only when you are relaxed without examining the picture.
    These were the only 2 tvs that I could watch relaxed. :)
     
  14. mikeycrawford

    mikeycrawford
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    You took the words out of my mouth :) Progressive scan sounds like the most likely explanation of the effect being described.

    I sometimes watch TV on my DELL 19" TFT (through a TV capture card) and notice this same effect. If anything it is more noticeable on the Dell than on the Pioneer, but not really that off putting to me. Maybe this is why some people say that normal TV looks best on an ALIS panel. Possbily that fact the Pio is HD is also a factor.

    I watch TV almost exclusively through SKY, via RGB, and am very hapy with the quality (although as I type this Til Death Us Do Part on UKTV Gold isn't looking so hot ... circa 1960 episode ).
     
  15. pendlebum

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    I noticed the slo mo effect, actually my wife noticed it (typical) as soon as we set it up and started watching the rugby the other week. Anyway, I turned off the cinema processing (or whatever it is) and I haven't noticed anything for the past three weeks - I've got a 435FDE.
     
  16. Moviebuff

    Moviebuff
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    I've set all the picture enhancements on my 504 to low or off -

    Everything OK here.

    But, now that it has been raised, I might when I'm bored, give the pure cinema et al a go, to see if it is detrimental to the overall picture.
     
  17. Dr Pete

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    This is great input. Sounds like there is a consensus of sorts.

    1) Likely to be a result of progressive scan.
    2) Picture Enhancements such as Pure Cinema seem to exaggerate the effect.
    3) Noticed by some and not others. Of those who notice the effect, a few find it annoying. Better not own one if you are one of the few!


    I have to agree with Superpixel, the more I see the Pio (up close), the more defects I'm picking up. Although I still have to detect the shuddering, to me the mosquito noise is really obvious. Footy starts this week and I'll be able to make better judgements on processing errors and shudder using this as a reference as I'm familiar with it on my CRT. Also its SD, often played at night (high contrast) and fast moving. This purchase will be a lot of dosh to dish out so I want to make sure I'm happy with my choice.

    Believe it or not, the other screen I'm considering now is the Sharp LC-45G1. I haven't seen footy on this either but I've had very good and long demos (DVD, HD, SD) @ 3 stores now. I'm more than happy with everything about the screen (except the price). It has double the pixel count of the Pio505 and I haven't seen any mosquito noise or blurring etc. Skin colour is the best I've seen yet. Colours and pixel boundaries are muted (Euro style) rather than garish (Japanese style). Importantly, as yet there seems to be no list of known problems such as buzzing (which would really p*$$ me off), burn-in, fan noise etc. It runs cool. Oh no, could my first plasma be an LCD?

    The Pio still in contention but losing ground....
     
  18. superpixel

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    pete,

    that may be the majority view of this thread, but its certainly not mine! my dad has a Pioneer 434, so I know it well and have tried everything to solve the problems (yeh, he made the fatal mistake of buying blind based on Pioneer's old models which were excellent, that's progress for you)

    1) i haven't seen the problem on any other progressive set, including Pioneer's old models (433, 503)
    2) Switching PureCinema off makes no difference whatsoever that I can see
    3) Everybody who has seen it has noticed it....

    I would avoid LCDs completely - showroom grabbers, but when you get them home, the poor contrast and motion lag plain irritates...

    pete - if i were you i would DEFINITELY wait and buy the forthcoming Panasonic 50" TV. Sport in a dark room...its where the Pannies come into their own. What do you think of the current Panasonics?
     
  19. Dr Pete

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    Superpixel,

    I'll have to check the pannies out better I think. I'm also going to look more carefully at the 40 series Fujitsu.

    On the LCD front, I haven't been impressed with any except the Sharp 45G1. Have you seen one of these? Good size, resolution and excellent skin tones. Don't use any other LCD as a point of reference. I think it blows them away. The 800:1 contrast ratio is not bad. Motion lag could well be an issue but Sharp claim to have that licked. We'll see with further demo-ing. I would find this annoying but perhaps not as much a constant slow-mo effect, mosquito noise or worse, buzzing. Yes I'm picky, but I suppose everyone on this forum is.

    What I do like most about the Sharp is that its easy on the eyes whereas I find many plasmas harsh. Monet rather than Picasso. I know many stores crank the Plasmas up to the max to suck people in. It doesn't work for me. I don't mind the Sharp's slightly lower brightness. I need to keep assessing the contrast levels though. I am a resolution freak and this is a screen you could sit 3 feet away from!

    Oh, and another BIG advantage of the LCD, I would definitely write it off as a computer screen for my company, in which case the taxman effectively pays half :clap: He may however, frown at a plasma :nono:
     
  20. MokerJoker

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    Pete, I agree with you on the Pio. I've seen it side-by-side with a Panasonic 50-PV30, both showing the same HD satellite feed. There were a lot of slow pans and the judder was clearly visible on the Pio, whereas the Panny was supersmooth. I've also noticed it on other occasions: A plane taking off, a space shuttle launch, it looked bad on the Pio. So the Pioneer is out. There are two other contenders for me: The Philips 37PF9986 LCD (reportedly the same panel as Sharp, but it has some connectivity issues) and the new Panasonic PV500 (not available yet). Guess I'll have to wait another few months...

    - Jerry
     
  21. MAW

    MAW
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    You've certainly hit the nail on the head, it's the internal frame rate. NEC do this too, and MXE pioneers, but both of these have a facility in the service menu to switch to 50Hz modes, to prevent it. It's the same effect you see on a Pansonic panel with a digital HD or native res connection. I only notice it with scrolling text on the pannys, that's how I run mine, but some folks are very sensitive to it. The tiny little jerks it does on Pioneers irritate me much more than the bigger, but lower frequency jerks on the Panasonic, Pioneers make me think of being strapped to a pneumatic drill whilst watching, it's so regular. It shows on the 19" dell cos he's using 60Hz refresh. If it supports 75Hz, use it, the problem will go away.

    BTW Pete, loads of folks write off their plasmas against tax, but aren't the rules changing a bit on 1st April? Not rushing you or anything! :D
     
  22. Bernard Barnett

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    That's the second time recently I've seen someone boasting about a tax fiddle. Quite apart from the morality question, doesn't it occur to anyone that the ranks of the Inland Revenue might include members of these forums and that one or more of them might start taking a more professional interest? And they have ways of finding people's identities...
     
  23. superpixel

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    i've seen the Sharp 45" LCD...you're right pete, it is in a different league to other LCDs...but still not good enough for me - though of course it matters only what you think, I'm not going to be watching your TV, so you've got the right idea with being patient and demoing well.

    the LCD still displayed obvious lag (IMO), but even worse, the contrast was...frankly rubbish, despite pretending otherwise with an impressive stab at producing a black. only bright scenes, bright studio shots or overlays on dark backgrounds (eg concert footage) looked good to me...as soon as a 'normal' scenes came on the picture was far too washed out to look believable. it looked good to begin with, but failed the half-hour test royally..

    the forthcoming high-resolution Panasonic 42" should look excellent close-up if you're willing to downsize from 50". it should...fingers-crossed..be the best plasma TV out there in fact. The 50" does need more viewing distance, no-one can pretend otherwise. How close would you be sitting when watching?

    Sport in a dark-room though...its a Panasonic's dream. (and I am definitely NOT an obsessed panny-phile, as my other posts may reveal...)

    Surely the plasma can be claimed back as a monitor too, if the LCD can? What does that mean...a 42" Panasonic PV500 for just over £1000? wow. id buy 5 of them!
     
  24. Dr Pete

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    As a consulting scientist and a software engineer working almost exclusively with GIS (maps and satellite imagery), and with 2 rooms of my 4 bedroom house fitted out as offices, one would wonder it I can't claim a big screen, who can? I need to asses and present my results.

    Its just as much a case that I wouldn't want to use the plasma for static computer images. Therefore I wouldn't bother hooking up my PCs. Whereas with an LCD I would most likely use it (sometimes) as a computer display.

    Besides, I've never given the Inland Revenue a single cent, never have and never will. I believe Australia is no longer under thier juristiction.
     
  25. Mep

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    :rotfl: :rotfl:
     
  26. danny daniell

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    I tried turning off the "Pro Cinema" setting as recommended earlier in this thread & voila! images do pan much more smoothly......cheers for that!
     
  27. John_N

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    On the subject of taxes - this is the second time online recently I've seen people mention the 'morality' of tax avoidance.

    In the past, legal rulings have stated that you are under no obligation; legal, moral or otherwise, to pay the maximum tax that you have to.

    As a vanilla PAYE taxpayer and not running my own firm, I pay extremely high taxes every month. However, I'm afraid that's life and were I to open my own business I would attempt every avenue possible to minimise my tax bill. I try to minimise my tax bill on investments and why not?

    All the garbage about 'morality' of paying taxes is usually supressed envy I feel. If you don't like other people trying to reduce their tax bill, then do something to put yourself in that position. If you want to be just another soldier in the grey downtrodden army that pays its taxes, has 2.5 children and catches the 8:15 every day then that's your choice but you can't criticise anyone who has tried a different path. Higher risk = higher return and deservedly so. This country needs more businesses. It doesn't need the revenue to try and bleed them dry.
     
  28. Dr Pete

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    I'm pleased we're helping someone!

    I still like the look of the Pio, I like the idea of the media box and its colour rendition. I worry that, being a reasonably uptight guy, I would find picture errors nagging this would mount until it diminished my enjoyment. Hence my posts.

    Spent 15 min with the series 40 Fujitsu and yes it has less noise than the Pio. Colours as a slight bit harsher I think, but it may have been the setup. I reckon the Pio has slightly better skin tones.


    Still impressed with the Sharp LCD, see
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197330&page=2

    P
     
  29. oliverlim

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    I have been using the 4340 for just over a year. And I can tell you that the judder effect was really a sore point. Actually it should be called tearing. If you use the juddertest software into the HDMI input, you can see very clearly that the top half of the picture moves before the bottom half. With my Lumagen HDP, nothing I could do to improve it at all.

    I finally traded in to the 43MXE1 and it arrived yesterday. This unit has 3 Frame Rate Conversion settings. FRC 1 basically converts all signals to 70hz. So on my Pal SDTV, the tickers on the news is clearly not smooth clear. On DVDs, the tearing effect is clear. It is as like the 4340.

    With FRC 2, it leaves 60hz at 60hz and 50hz to 100hz. On Pal SDTV, the tickers are clear and smooth as hell. Just like a CRT. On DVDs the pans are smooth and no tearing at all.

    With FRC 3, it accepts only 48hz. So could be the best with NTSC DVD with 2:2 deinterlacing. I tried this with 48hz output from the Lumagen HDP. It is really smooth perhaps smoother by a little but as Genlocking is not implemented yet on the HDP, the pans seems to slow down and speed up at times. When that does not happen it is really smooth. But can't say for sure till I can do Genlocking.

    I have seen the new 435 and the tearing effect is still there. If you can swing it, get a 43MXE1 without the boards and get a Lumagen DVI and at native rate, with no double conversion, you get smooth pans, and a lack of noise in the background and yet sharp picture without using things like MNR/DNR. Best of both worlds I should say. How do I know? I've been there! and happy that I got there! :)

    Oliver
     
  30. attach

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    Set PureCinema to STANDARD so all signals is 75hz. If PureCinema is off its 100hz and can produce a staggering effect.
     

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