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Slain by the rainbow... Gladiator style :(

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Neelix, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. Neelix

    Neelix
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    I have just comeback from a PJ demonstration of the 4805, H57 and H77. Up to this point I had never seen a rainbow on any DLP including many RPTVs and a previous demo of the 4805 and 5700. I just couldn't believe it when they fired up the 4805 with Gladiator via component. Straight away it hit me... and also my girlfriend as I wanted to know whether she would be happy with DLP as I am very close to buying. I was sooooo dissapointed as I thought I was immune to this effect but it was there flashing before my eyes every other scene! What I don't understand is that I never saw a rainbow when viewing the 4805 before with T3 and Kill Bill... but The Gladiator was relentless :( We watched the same scenes on the H57 which was no better (PQ perhaps worse!!) with the best of the bunch being the H77 as you would expect although the rainbows were still visible just not as frequent. Eventually we connected a DVD player via DVI and surprisingly this helped to reduce the rainbow effect maybe due to better contrast levels.

    After this I was pretty fed up but decided to hook up my laptop via vga to see how it fared as a monitor and also for high definition viewing. Well the H77 was perfect as a monitor with the H57 and 4805 acceptable but you wouldn't want to browse the net a lot on these models. The HD content was good on all, but the H77 really benefited from the extra pixels. What was most noticeable was the near enough total abscence of rainbow effect. I tried many WMV HD 720p samples including the new Alexander trailer and many other IMAX samples. The only HD to produce a rainbow was the Ray trailer although it was barely noticeable and only happened a couple of times.

    So, this has confused me. I will be using a HCPC via DVI so this seems to be a good start at combatting the rainbow effect. Furthermore it appears to be very film dependant with the Gladiator being borderline unwatchable. The problem is how do you know which films will be effected and to be honest when you are paying this much why should I have to think or worry about this phenomenon. I am now drawn to the prospect of LCD projectors as I cannot bear the thought of suffering these rainbows and my girlfriend was equally put off with the added effect of a headache after 2 hrs intermittent viewing. There are obvious drawbacks of the LCD technology but none so troublesome as the rainbow. The problem is I have never seen a home theatre LCD projector so I have no idea of the image to expect. It is very hard to get a demo of LCDs as very few outlets stock or sell this technology for HC. So what would the good people of AVForums suggest for those that suffer rainbows? From my general reading on here it would appear that the Panny AE700, Sanyo Z3 and Sony HS50 would be a good bet for the LCD technology... but which one gives the most cinematic feel as this is very important to me? Any advice on all of the above is greatly appreciated :lease:
     
  2. Gary Lightfoot

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    What gain was the screen? High gain screens can make rainbows worse in some cases, as can a lack of ambient light IIRC, so maybe that's why all the projectors you'd seen before were showing rainbows.

    If you have to go the LCD route, look at the Sony HS50, as that gets good reviews and doesn't seem to suffer from vertical banding like many LCDs do. Good value too.

    Gary.
     
  3. Neelix

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    The screen was 1.3 gain with a near enough dark room. When I previously demo'd the 4805 and 5700 it was under very similar conditions... but no rainbows. That's why i believe it to be very film dependant.

    The HS50 looks good for contrast with it's variable iris. I am also drawn by the high resolution and the obvious price factor over DLPs. Is there anything else I should be concerned about with LCD? I am a little perturbed by the notion that LCD doesn't produce a cinematic look and also the more obvious screen door effect. Would LCD owners of the the Z3, AE700, HS50 or any others care to comment on this?
     
  4. UrbanT

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    Neelix, like you I suffer rainbows badly, so had to tread the LCD route.

    You will find owners of projectors will always defend their own choice. I have the HS50, and have been amazed at the quality. Extremely quiet, great colours, best contrast, and to date no dust (I haven't found any reports of dust in the Sony yet).

    If you are at all local, you are more than welcome to have a look. :)
     
  5. Neelix

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    UrbanT, the pictures from your site look absolutely stunning! :eek: :cool: :thumbsup:

    Do you notice any screen door or vertical banding with the HS50. I think I am pretty much sold on this model having read up on in it all night and for the price who can argue with the PQ and true HD capability. Cheapest I have found it is £1,499 @ Gultronics and £1588 @ Unbeatable. That's less than half the price of the H77 I demo'd this afternoon!!!!!
     
  6. UrbanT

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    Neelix, the screenshots look great, but are absolutely no substitute for a proper demo, and are therefore of no value. They do brighten the site up though, and have been the subject of fraud claims from both the US and France :laugh:

    Anyway, I personally don't see any VB or SDE on mine, whereas I have seen it on my past projectors. I've also had a couple of members over to demo the projector, who I had never met before, and they couldn't see any either. This is from a 1.5x viewing distance.

    To be fair,. this could be due to the settings I use, or some inputs being better than others. I haven't tested them extensively to know. But feeding it through VGA from an HCPC gives great results, so I'm sure you will be happy if you buy one. Do try and get a demo first though :thumbsup:
     
  7. Neelix

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    Just reading up on your thread UrbanT, what is this problem with 720p being blanked? :confused: I will be wanting to output via this resolution over HDMI to DVI especially where HDCP is concerned. Does the HS50 not support 720p via HDMI and therefore unable to display HDCP content? This would be a big concern... why can't the manufacturers seem to get it right?! :rolleyes:
     
  8. maj74

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    Sony HS-50 feed component Via VGA, no overscan / blanking issues.

    surprisingly very able internal scaling, very smooth images / motion.

    Shoot and Show (Horsham) £1399 + £25 for a dead pixel check.

    It really, really, really, really is a simply stunning machine. (As long as you feed via VGA or aren't bothered by the overscan issue...
     
  9. Neelix

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    Maj74, thanks for the price although that is actually excluding VAT so really £1644 ;)

    What is this blanking issue? Does it mean the HS50 cannot accept a native 720p signal at all? The problem if it just blanks 720p via HDMI means any HD content that is protected via HDCP i.e. BluRay, HD-DVD, Sky HD... would not be viewable on the HS50 which really is a big problem over the next 12-18 months as HD content is released/broadcast.
     
  10. Neelix

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    Ahhh, finally found a definition of the 720p "blanking" which in simple terms is where it cuts the edges of the image by a few pixels i.e. adds black borders. This is of course why you use vga instead of HDMI UrbanT :oops: :blush: I could live with this just as long as the HS50 is future proof with HDCP etc. Hopefully Sony will produce a fix as has been commented by an AVS forum user. :)
     
  11. UrbanT

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    Yep, I use the VGA connection to give me perfect 1:1 pixel mapping. I could use HDMI easily (and did to start with), but went to VGA because trying to read slightly blurred text was getting on my goat :)
     
  12. nwgarratt

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    Has anyone managed to photograph a rainbow, or is it something that can't be done?

    I have never seen what they look like.
     
  13. UrbanT

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    Here is a link to a piece of film where the guy is showing the rainbow effect

    ftp://ftp.extremetech.com/pub/extremetech/displays/SamsungHLN4365WRainbowClip.wmv

    Its not how I actually see them, they appear more like mult-coloured flashgun firing very quickly, but hopefully will give you an idea
     
  14. GLADIATOR

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    Neelix

    I have a Sony HS50 fed with 1080i via HDMI. I too suffered from rainbows on DLP's but was blown away by how good this LCD is, but go check one out for yourself before you buy. I see no VB and sit x2 screen width away.
     
  15. nwgarratt

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    Thanks for that. However, I am none the wiser as it just looks like someone waving the camera in front of a monitor with a circle. How can they look like a rainbow effect?

    Has anyone done it with actual film footage?
     
  16. monopole

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  17. Gary Lightfoot

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    As the white circle flashes past, you should see red green and blue circles trailing it. What you're actualy seeing is the red green and blue that make up the white circle being seperated by the camera shutter speed and is similar to what rainbows look like to some people.

    Gary.
     
  18. MaJong

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    If you have a THX disk, look at the 16:9 monitor test on optimode. It's a large nearly white circle on a black background. Almost everybody sees 'rainbows' or 'something wierd'.

    I think it's the visual breakup you see on this section as your eye scans for the relationships in the image which give rise to the eyestrain some people complain of with DLP.

    Personally I do see them but I find complete darkness increases the propensity, so a litle ambient light can help!

    Of course your milage may vary. Still v. pleased with 4805 fed good material, but do find I succumb to 'spreadsheet eye' at 3hr's + but this may not just be DLP (have had lower spec LCD over the years).

    If you do need more than DVD and monitor duties Sony sounds right onthe money, I figured this would hold me for 2 years :rolleyes: ...
     
  19. nwgarratt

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    Thanks for that.

    I just realised reading that why I might not see what others see. I am slightly red and green colour blind. I can normally see red and green just fine but sometimes I don't see some shades of red/green.
     
  20. jonny m

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    Neelix
    Can't use DLP's either - I never see rainbows but I get eye strain.

    I have a sanyo z3 and think its amazing.

    good luck

    j
     
  21. Oakleyspatz

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    The Gladiator movie is just one such movie that shows up the rainbow problem more than others. It is the sepia type colours of mostly browns and creams that highlight the brighter reds and greens and blues. The same would be true of a black & white movie viewed on a DLP projector. Animation movies such as Monsters Inc or Toy Story hide the rainbow effect as the picture already has vivid colours and masks any rainbows you may see.
    So it's not so much HOW you connect your DLP but WHAT you watch on it that can show up the rainbows.
     
  22. martian1

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    Well i am worried reading this ...still got time to cancel order and go with lcd !
    I viewed i infocus 4805 [i think ] a 5700 and a sim DLP projector i watched various material including x-men2, lord of the rings and a animated movie. All seemed fine but this thread got me worried now, watched rainbow clips and can see problem..arggg..swap to a hs50 or not, i still think dlp more cinematic better colours blacks etc..and yes i have seen a sony.
     
  23. Oakleyspatz

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    .
     
  24. Neelix

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    Oakleyspatz, I agree that the Gladiator has a lot of scenes with strong light shifts with dark sepia tones and contrasts. However, you mentioned black and white films causing this effect however I watched Kill Bill (the black & white scenes at the start in the chapel) and didn't see one rainbow on the 4805 or 5700! In fact I didn't see any rainbows that day when watching T3, Kill Bill or Monsters Inc, but they are very apparent (unwatchable for me) on the Gladiator, a few flashes on LOTR 2 (Helms Deep battle) and on the Ray Charles new trailer. I am really p*ssed off as I thought I was definately immune to this effect but alas no. When spending £1500+ you need to be sure that you won't suffer any problems regardless of film content... so, looks like LCD for me and probably the HS50.
     
  25. Gillmonster

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    what does more cinematic mean. LCD has better colors ie more realistic tones etc so does cinematic mean duller colours

    I have seen both the 5700 and HS50 and instinctively preferred the 5700 for colours. Was the HS50 not configutared properly (nottingham hifi, salesman didnt seem to know much) or do we just prefer duller colours!
     
  26. SimonInd

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    I've always thought DLP provided better colours and better blacks. This along with the lack of chickenwire tends to give a more film-ic presentation. LCD has always been better in terms of cost and lack of rainbows. When 3 chip DLPs are affordable, and the rainbow effect goes away, it will be interesting to see how well LCD competes with DLP?

    Cheers

    Simon
     
  27. Craig Armstrong

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    I felt sick for a second, I thought I had not got the best price, but that's a VAT-exclusive price you are quoting. Gultronics at £1,499 still seems to be the best price. :)
     
  28. SanPedro

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    I've just had an H57 on loan for a week. And I do get the rainbow effect.

    The H57 is such a huge improvement over my AE100 that i can put up with it quite easily. Sometimes the thing is not to look out for these effects too much and just sit back and enjoy the movie. But I appreciate that I may not suffer as much as some people.

    I also think that sitting further back from the screen mitigates the effect, as your eye is not having to scan across the screen as much. It only effects me a lot if I flick my eyes back and forth across the screen - thats also how I would sugegst you test to see if you are susceptible to this effect.

    BTW neither my wife or kids have made any comment about rainbow effects whatsoever.

    Chris
     
  29. Neelix

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    The rainbows are a real shame given the PQ of many DLP projectors but I also think DLP creates more eye strain although why I don't know. My girlfriend suffered for a few hours after with eye strain and headache as well as seeing the rainbows. I was all set to get a DLP until I watched Gladiator which was awful, you just couldn't sit back and enjoy the film as it was every other scene jumping out of the picture.

    The reason for being put off LCD originally was the more apparent SDE, greater chance of dead pixels and also that many have observed colours to be more cartoony and the general PQ more digital. However, the latest LCDs seem to have gone a long way to counter these problems and I guess as long as they are set-up and calibrated correctly then they should be able to provide a film like feel and look. Either way, anything is better than suffering the rainbows :(
     
  30. Supersonic

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    I've watched a couple of different DLP pjs and while I see a few rainbows, I always get a bad headache after watching a movie, so am also looking at going the LCD route. I was *almost* certain about buying a Z3, but if the HS50 is way better, I might have to re-think. Either way, I couldn't put up with the rainbow/DLP-induced headache!

    (PS - sorry if off-topic - is the HS51 a different PJ or just a US model number?)
     

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