Sky HDTV only via HDMI/DVI

Discussion in 'Sky Digital TV Forum' started by phil5743, Dec 25, 2004.

  1. phil5743

    phil5743
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    http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=7231
    I was very concerned to read this , having just bought a high res plasma with
    forthcoming HDTV in mind. The salesperson was very persuasive that a higher resolution screen was more future-proof. My screen lacks digital inputs but I only thought this would limit DVD playback quality if I ever upgraded my DVD player, not make it totally incompatible with HDTV broadcasts. Surely Sky will be severely limiting their market buy going down this path and does anyone think a way of getting round this using a component connection will be devised? (for example a conversion box). I'm trying to put this all to the back of my mind but feel a bit sick as I've only had my new plasma for a few weeks and thought it would serve me well for years to come!
     
  2. grahamtriggs

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    This has already been covered.

    Firstly, the announcement does not say that Sky HDTV will be *only* via HDMI/DVI - but if the broadcast is set to be protected, then it will only be via the digital interfaces, and that means most of the content.

    Secondly, whether they are limiting their market or not, it simply isn't viable for them to have analogue outputs for all content. There is no way they would be able to get/afford most of the content if they didn't enforce copy protection, and that means HDMI / DVI-HDCP.

    There is already a DVI -> VGA adaptor, but it may not be suitable for the UK market (ie. it may only deal with 60hz signals). It's possible that someone may try to produce a DVI -> component adaptor, but you are bypassing the copy protection, and so the big studios may try and come down hard on anyone producing such a device. Most of the existing scalers that could do such a conversion, don't allow analogue output for copy protected content.
     
  3. phil5743

    phil5743
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    In my experience someone always manages to circumvent such restrictions and I only hope that this will be no exception! Sorry if this is an old topic but I was unable to find it.
     
  4. grahamtriggs

    grahamtriggs
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    Technically, there is nothing to prevent someone making such a device. As I said, the real question mark is whether the studios try to shut them down if they did - they may do, or they may not. But they could try, and there are laws that could be used in there favour if they wanted to.

    There is no technical reason why the existing scalers shut down analogue outputs for protected content - it's something they choose to do, to comply with the HDCP specifications,
     
  5. Evil Engineer

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    I'm fairly certain that selling devices that defeat copy protection such as Macrovision (and HDCP) is illegal in the EU and I'd imagine that it's a similar situation in the US.

    What I can't work out is why people seem so suprised by Sky's HDMI/DVI(HDCP) announcement. Surely it's obvious that if Sky wanted to do HD movie channels that they would have to use copy protected HDMI/DVI(HDCP). Hollywood would never allow it's movies to come out the back of a set top box in unprotected HD-component where it can easily be used to produce excellent quality pirates.

    And it's not just movies. Sky want complete control over what you can and can't record onto DVD (or Blue Ray etc.) and HDMI/DVI(HDCP) gives them this control. There is a massive market these days for complete season box sets of TV shows and there is no way any TV company is going to let you make your own when they can flog you one instead.

    Sky will let you record whatever you like onto a Sky+ style hard drive but will choose very carefully what you can record onto optical disc.

    I also think that component output will not be available at all. Sky will not want the hassle of explaining to people why they can't get a picture on their plasma whenever a movie or "premium" show starts. You may get a down-scaled scart output (with added macrovision) to feed a second TV but that will probably be it.
     
  6. phil5743

    phil5743
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    I just wish that copy prevention could be implemented post viewing on the screen - then HDTV could be viewed regardless of connection but not copied thereafter. Will Sky be the only short-term viable HDTV source or will there be other ways I will be able to utilize the extra resolution of my screen in the future? A lot of people have been sold screens labelled as "HDTV ready" and this appears to be totally false if Sky is the only way to get it.
     
  7. Lizzard

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    HDCP is very easy to crack, after reading a paper from a University where they have analyzed the HDCP protocol they said it's very easy to bypass and trick the protocol to behave in certain ways.
     
  8. Lizzard

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  9. grahamtriggs

    grahamtriggs
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    No sign of other broadcast services as yet. Even if they were, they would almost certainly employ the same encryption / restrictions - as I keep pointing out, this isn't Sky choosing to be b******* because they can, it is something that is going to be driven by the providers of the content - ie. the US studios and networks that Sky buy so much in from. And any other broadcast scheme will have channels that buy their content from the same sources, and will have to implement the same schemes.

    There is HD-DVD / Blu-Ray coming soon - but again, this will have copy protection.

    You are right that no TV should be sold today as HDTV ready if it doesn't support DVI-HDCP or HDMI. And this should have been the case ever since HDCP was standardised, and DVD players started implementing DVI-HDCP / HDMI interfaces. Even then, it's not that simple, as some work with high def signals @ 60 hz, but not 50 - technically it's HDTV ready, just not that useful for European services!!
     
  10. phil5743

    phil5743
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  11. cucuz

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    I wouldn't have thought so due to the fact that they are actually Hd compatible it's just the fact that they don't appear to be compatible with Sky HD ( this is yet to be confirmed in anything more than a press release ).
     
  12. phil5743

    phil5743
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    How can it be compatible when it appears that all significant future sources of HD material will have to be copy-protected and therefore delivered via a digital feed. Sony even talk about Blue Ray which will almost certainly be heavily copy-protected and require an HDMI or DVI output.
     
  13. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    Phil what plasma (model no please) have you bought?
    KDE-P42MRX1 has very odd connections for a HD TV......... Connectors
    Memory Stick Slot Rec:JPEG/MPEG4 Playback:JPEG/MPEG4,1
    PCMCIA Card Slot YES
    RCA Audio Out YES
    RCA AV Input YES
    Scart 1 RGB
    Scart 2 RGB, Smartlink
    Scart 3 RGB, Smartlink

    no mention of component or VGAA let alone DVi/HDMI so i would rate that as ZERO for HD compatibilty as there is no way to HD into the damn thing..... (unless RGBS can be used.....on a technical level it can but not seen any news on it being used in Devices....)

    KDL-L42MRX1 same connectivity (media box would need to be upgraded for HD) USELESS I reeally hope the website is wrong...... In fact all SONY falt panel TV's 37" and above seem equally useless.....
     
  14. grahamtriggs

    grahamtriggs
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    According to Empire Direct, it has component inputs. But even so, with the major studios so focused on copy protection, what good is that?
     
  15. hornydragon

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    well i took the info from www.sony.co.uk so if they cant get it right on the website god help them.......
    PS Merry Xmas Graham
     
  16. phil5743

    phil5743
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    My Sony KE-P37XS1 was bought as a result of my being told by the Sony Centre (and their website) that it was HDTV ready due to its higher resolution. I know purists will question my decision but its fantastic looks gave it instant spouse approval and the picture in the shop looked good too (the hi-fi press seem to agree). The point is though that the only way to get HD into it would be via component and this seems to be a non-starter. Unless someone can devise a box of tricks to overcome this (I would have thought Sony and Sky would both gain something from this if copy-protection could be preserved somehow) I feel I have been totally mis-informed by Sony. I'm also surprised they haven't amended their website by now.
     
  17. cucuz

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    Does it have a media box? If so how is it connected ( Usually by DVI ) . Could you bypass the media box altogether and go DVI into the screen direct ?
     
  18. grahamtriggs

    grahamtriggs
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    AVLand also lists component, and PC inputs http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/kdep42mrx1/kdep42mrx1.htm

    I suppose you could argue that if it has RCA component connectors, it is covered by the 'RCA AV inputs' (although you would expect that to just mean composite / stereo).

    Bit late now, so happy boxing day!!
     
  19. grahamtriggs

    grahamtriggs
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    Can is easy. It's selling it without incurring the wrath of the movie studios that's the tricky part.

    You (likely) can't preserve copy protection on analogue inputs without requiring that the receiving device is modified to accept the input.
     
  20. rags

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    TBH the Sony UK website is a real shocker from the way it is designed to the information it provides. Absolutely crap.
     
  21. phil5743

    phil5743
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    I totally agree but in this case the information is untrue as well which is even more worrying.
     

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