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SIM2 HT200 vs Sony VW10HT

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by mart.stokes, Mar 16, 2001.

  1. mart.stokes

    mart.stokes
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    I'm starting to think about a projector, I reckon I am still 6 months away from purchasing but I want to do the selection carefully because of the cost involved.

    My heart and eyes say HT200.

    My brain says VW10HT.

    Why does my brain say this, I suspect because I don't have all of the facts. Will somebody please put my reasoning to right;

    1) The VW10HT is true anamorphic.
    2) The HT200 is DLP therefore can still suffer from "burn in" from station identifiers, LCD can not.
    3) The VW10HT offers a greater number of pixels and is HDTV capable.
    4) The VW10HT uses this fancy Sony processing that exists on their latest TVs.

    So, I admit the SIM2 looks better but my brain wants a Sony!!!

    Can either of these accept progressive scan input?

    Will somebody give me a damn good kicking over my logic please?
     
  2. Jenz

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    MAtt, sorry to rain on your parade but now that the HT250 is appearing in the USA perhaps you should wait?
     
  3. LV426

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    My brain (and my wallet) both said VW10HT so that's what I did. It was before the SIM HT200 appeared. Now I've had a demo of the SIM I would......


    buy the Sony.


    Dingy dark 4X3 pictures bear no comparison to the bright, sharp (and, admittedly rather grey) experience I currently enjoy.

    Even if the SIM was brighter, I'd still choose the Sony because of its true 16X9 aspect ratio. This is not simply a matter of extracting and displaying the most information from a DVD, it's also about screen shape. I use a 16X9 screen. If I has the SIM, I'd need a 4X3 one. That would make it either narrower or taller.

    The perception of image "size" is more governed by its height than by its width. That's how our brains and eyes work. So, by having a 16X9 device, the perceived "size" of 4X3 and 16X9 images is the same (ie same height, but wider).

    Any 4X3 device will show 16X9 images less tall (therefore, "smaller").

    AND the other thing about the SIM is the famous DLP rainbow. My visual acuity makes this obvious and intrusive.

    That is MY opinion. However, when you're spending £4k or more, you really have to check out the alternatives for yourself. Spend a good deal of time auditioning (at least 2 hours of continuous viewing) the choices. Try to imagine what you'll feel about the thing after you've got it home and installed it, and the newness has worn off. At this point, any shortcomings you have begin to annoy you more, than when you were just awe-struck by the size of the picture. That's why you need to sit there, in the shop, in the dark, for a couple of hours.

    [This message has been edited by nigel (edited 16-03-2001).]
     
  4. tiberious

    tiberious
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    Hi Mart,

    I went through the same stage as you - viewed the sony 3 times, and thought it was great.....Then I saw the HT200.

    You can find my extensive thoughts on the comparisons if you run a search on HT200 here, but for now I would just say this

    The Sony is MUCH cheaper (for sure less than £4000 against around £6000 rrp for the HT200)

    The HT200 has blacker blacks,richer colours and gives a drop dead gorgeous picture (IMHO)

    I don`t buy into this 4:3 screen necessity for the HT200. I run a HT200 onto a 100" diagonal 16:9 ratio screen.The projector is run with contrast and brightness at around 52-57 (100 =max).The picture is PLENTY bright enough - after all,Grey screens have been designed for dlps as well as lcd, so dont be fooled by the lower lamp rating "its not how big it is, its how you use it"

    The HT200 has pre sets for 16:9 anamorphic as well as letterbox and 4:3.It also has 3 user definable aspect ratios (I guess you mean the Sony is "true anamorphic" because it uses 16:9 native panels?).

    Sure, when displaying 16:9 images, it only uses part of the native 800x600 panel,but this in no way compromises the picture - if you have seen it, you already know this yourself.If concerned here, the use of an anamorphic lens (ISCO or Panamorph)would allow full panel usage for 16:9 images(at further cost of course.)

    Nige - I don`t understand why you say all 4x3 projectors will show 16:9 images "less tall".Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but the "image size" of a 16:9 picture from the HT200 is exactly the same as the sony (given the same screen size).

    I have never suffered from Rainbow, and no one (so far)who has seen my set up has seen it either - so if you`re not prone, don`t worry.

    So, if you want true reds and black blacks (and you have a wallet that needs to go on a diet !!)I would go for the HT200 every time.

    The other nifty thing is that the software is upgradeable via the net - so any improvements the engineers come up with are yours at the grand cost of....nothing.It`s free.

    Finally - dlps suffering "burn in" ?, I`m no expert here, but I`ve never heard that - as DLP uses mirrors to produce the image,I don`t see what can be "burnt in"(I stand ready to be corrected here).
    More pixels don`t necesarrily mean better picture (and HDTV - we`re not going to get it here for years- if ever, and,trust me, you`ll have upgraded by then anyway !)and the HT200 is hdtv compatible.

    That`s the advert - as always you must do what you think is best for you, given your own circumstances - and the Sony is a fine machine.

    If you want good reaons not to but the HT200
    - Some would say the Halo effect is distracting, and some say it is noisy (it has a variable pitch fan, which is louder than the Sony - but not by much).

    If you can`t` justify the HT200,I guess you would can the HT250 for the same reasons (it is still a 4:3 native)

    Good luck mate.

     
  5. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    Nigel posted
    "If I has the SIM, I'd need a 4X3 one (screen). That would make it either narrower or taller."

    Actually, as Tiberious correctly points out, the Sim2 HT200 will work perfectly with a 16x9 screen.

    Most DLP/LCD projectors work best with a 4:3 screen. The Sony is designed to work best with a 16:9 screen and can’t fill the height of a normal 4:3 screen.

    Thanks to its intelligent scaler, the HT200 will work happily with either. I believe it is the only stand-alone single lens projector that will do this.

    We also have three adjustable aspect ratios. The user can set the height and width of the picture as they wish. These can be used to accommodate unusual film formats such as 1.66:1 without cropping or distorting the image.

    Regards


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    Chris Frost
    Regional Sales Manager-N.England & Scotland
    Owl Video Systems Ltd
    www.owl-video.co.uk
     
  6. mart.stokes

    mart.stokes
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    Thanks for the very valuable information. There is still some nagging doubt at the back of my mind that DLP can suffer "burn in", although logic dictates that they should not.
     
  7. mart.stokes

    mart.stokes
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    With regards to the cost, don't you find that with HC equipment there is a pain barrier? After you go through that barrier it just can't hurt any more! £4000 or £6000, it's still bl**dy expensive!
     
  8. meva

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    If you're 6 months away I bet you'll buy neither.The Sony is now pretty old technology(comparatively)and new LCD projectors coming from Sharp and Sanyo(and possibly Sony)willl probably render it obsolete.The Sim2 is currently hideously overpriced IMHO and also Infocus(definitely,see www.infocushome.com ) and Plus(rumoured)are working on new Home cinema projectors that should,hopefully,seriously undercut the Sim2's price.



    [This message has been edited by meva (edited 16-03-2001).]
     
  9. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    mart.stokes

    DLP is probably the least likely to suffer from burn in. Poorly set-up CRT the most likely.

    LCD can be affected by burn in, but the chances are pretty slim. You are more likely to see damage to the LCD panels due to infra red (from the lamp)rather than image burn, but again this is a very long term phenomenon.

    Regards


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    Chris Frost
    Regional Sales Manager-N.England & Scotland
    Owl Video Systems Ltd
    www.owl-video.co.uk
     
  10. LV426

    LV426
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    OK - the responses to my post were predictable. But, some of the responses mean that, clearly, I, and the dealers who have shown me the SIM, don't fully understand something, which is:

    How "tall" is the picture it produces from a 4X3 source, compared with the height of a picture produced from a 16X9 source?
     
  11. LV426

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    Gordon - thanks - NOW I understand......
     
  12. Richard Harnwell

    Richard Harnwell
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    Something not mentioned above that I found very distracting with the HT200 was stairstepping. I reviewed the HT200 and 10HT using the same width screen (6'), same source (Arcam DV88), and same disks.

    On a number of DVDs, and Bugs Life (R2) and Dark City (R2) in particular, I found that the HT200 rendered moving diagonal lines with a very obvious jagged look. A swinging lamp at the start of Dark City, and the limbs of the creatures in Bugs Life were particular problems. This stairstepping was nowhere near as distracting with the Sony, and completely eliminated the Seleco from my shortlist.

    I have spoken to a couple of other people who have noticed this, but can never understand why no-one complains about this more.

     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Richard,

    People may not mention it as they don't see it or associate it with being a problem. The other issue is that, as the HT200 is software updateable, some may on dem in shops may have superior scaling than others.

    Liam and Nic who came to me for a dem of these two did comment on how the HT200, VPL10 and PLV30 coped with stairstepping I think in their short reviews. Titanic (the scene where the ship leaves port) shows this up well on these units.

    Gordon

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  14. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    Yes, I commented on the stair-stepping on the opening scene of The Thing when the dog is being chased across the snow. The Sony looked best, followed by the Sanyo, but the Sim2 was quit noticably worse.

    Cheers,
    Liam


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    "Do you hear that, Mr. Anderson? That is the sound of inevitability."
     
  15. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Nigel,

    It can either be larger( using the full height of the panel) or the same size (using a limited height of the native panel)

    The HT200 has the ability to re-size a 4:3 image to fit within a 16:9 screen just as the VPL10 does. The difference between the two is that the Sony is always using more pixels, although that doesn't necessarily mean it will be better.

    Gordon

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  16. LV426

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    Ahhh, yes. So, when you are only using two-thirds of a 800X600 display to show your widescreen images, you get jagged diagonals.

    There's a surprise.....

    Or am I missing something again?
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Actually you may be missing soemthing.

    The Sony, with it's 768 vertical pixels was best although there was still stair stepping. The Sanyo was next best, followed by the HT200. Both these units have 800 x 600 panels. Yet there was considerable difference between them.

    I think that perhaps the distance between each pixel may have a contributing effect as well..... I haven't checked though.

    Gordon

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  18. mart.stokes

    mart.stokes
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    Thanks to everybody for their contrbutions again, I guess the answer is a Sim2 DLP machine with the "resolution" of the Sony!!!
     
  19. tryingtimes

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    Exactly, that's where your 6 months comes in! [​IMG]
     
  20. LV426

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    Once I upgraded by DVD player to a Pioneer 737 and started driving my VW10HT with component/progressive scan (from NTSC sources) all residual traces of stair-stepping have disappeared. It still get a little on PAL sources where there is some movement in the image. But, no longer visible at all on NTSC sources.
     
  21. tiberious

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    ....and the new Dwin DLP is currently getting rave reviews on AVS - an XGA machine, and so even more than the HT200 pricewise - but this and the HT250 seem to be the new cutting edge toys in DLP.

    Although I love the HT200 , I remember saying in one of my first posts , that I was sure I would have "upgraded" within 3 years.I still think that is true.

    The stairstepping issue is interesting - it was far more noticeable on the earlier software , I think it has improved a lot with version 1.15 (or I`m getting used to it!) - but is certainly much better when fed a progressive picture via component.

    Hey Mart - I`m with you on the cost thing !
    One minute you "can`t afford £1/-" for a new tv , then you`re paying out £1/- for a DVD player and multiples more on the rest of the system !!.My idea - take all the pain at once and it doesn`t hurt so much !(okay , that`s not true - but you only have to hide one ccard statement from `er indoors!).
     
  22. mart.stokes

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    Tiberious, the projector idea may be sold to the wife as a "project" including whatever alterations she wants to the living room also thrown in so I MIGHT get away with it!
     
  23. Jenz

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    Yes Matt, I normally find the suggestion of a New Suite Dear? works wonders.
     

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