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Sim2 Domino 20H Pricing Policy

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by foghorn, Mar 13, 2004.

  1. foghorn

    foghorn
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    In recent weeks I have been looking into replacing my current DLP projector. Having taken in a demo of a few projectors, the best projector to date has been the Domino 20.

    When the rumours of a the 20H became a reality, it seemed certain that the addition of HDMI to the Sim2 range would result in an increase in price to all of the projectors in the range.

    The Sim2 range now consists of a Domino 20 and a Domino 20H. Why is there not a Domino 30 and Domino 30H.

    How can the Domino 20H be more expensive than the Domino 20, when all other projectors in range have had the addition of HDMI with no change to their prices?
     
  2. KraGorn

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    Wasn't the D20 the same price as the 20H is now? I'm sure Projectorsareus had them at £3995, or was it £3775, whatever it was still more than the £3495 they want for the D20 now.
     
  3. foghorn

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    Thanks for the reply.

    The Domino 20 to the best of my knowledge was sold for £3750 (£3595 in some retailers).

    Based on the logic that no other Sim2 models have increased in price due to the addition of HDMI then the Domino 20H should be retailing for £3750.

    In addition if Sim felt the need to continue to market the Domino 20 then applying the current price differential of £500 then the Domino 20 should be retailing for £3250
     
  4. KraGorn

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    That's Capitalism for you. :D

    I want a D30 .. don't have the funds .. but one day. ;)
     
  5. RTFM

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    The Domino 20 was £3750 when first launched last autumn.
    With the arrival of HDMI the price for the standard 20 was reduced to £3500 whilst the 20H was set at £3999.

    I personally think the increase in picture quality with HDMI is well worth the extra.
     
  6. rozel

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    Not at all - see last sction of the following thread: -

    http://www.avforums.com/frame.html?.../forums/register.php?a=act&u=24174&i=56918959

    Must admit in view of what's been said above I am becoming very sceptical now at the way pricing is allocated by these specialist manufacturers. Hopefully in a few years time when demand increases, we will see prices drop but until then they can rip us off.

    Just my tuppence worth

    Paul
     
  7. rozel

    rozel
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    Sorry the url didn't show properly it's the thread entitled InFocus ScreenPlay 5700 in the DLP section

    Paul
     
  8. RTFM

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    Guys,

    I was hoping this new Sim2 forum area that I started would be used for discussions on how to get the best performance and most enjoyment out of these superb Italian projectors.

    All things considered I think the pricing of Sim2 projectors is in line with the build quality, versatility, styling and performance of these units.

    I get many reps. coming to see me with similarly priced DLP projectors and not one has matched the performance and picture quality of an equivalent Sim2 model.

    If it's all about price then maybe Sim2 is not the right choice for you.

    However if you value Sim2 UK's outstanding backup and after sales service to their dealers and end users then their range of projectors should be high up on your list.
     
  9. rozel

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    Jeff - you make a fair point. And I value my Sim2 Domino 20 very much relatively to what is available right now. I was certainly not criticising the build quality and I don't think any one is on here.

    But pricing policy is quite a different matter. It's obvious to me and a whole new generation of people who can now afford projection and home cinema systems that with more competition, prices are bound to tumble as demand rockets. You only have to look at the cost of wide-screen TV's, Plasma and other digital screen products, DLP, CRT and LCD etal that as new technology develops quality rises and prices fall.

    In a few years the cost of a Sim2 pj will be substantially less, I will not accept that it will retain or increase in price.

    So if you accept that then you may be challenged as to why you maintain high costs along with other specialist manufacturers. You may get away with it with Dealers who supply businesses, indeed the projection market has traditionally been financed on the back of this - the percentage of private enthusiasts has been until recently very small indeed. However the market is changing and with ever more people searching to improve on their traditional telly's quality, prices must drop if these people are not to be driven away. The home market is rapidly expanding and it ocurrs to me at any rate that prices are over-inflated, notwithstanding the desire to own a particular product.

    I know it's not Sim2's domain but how can the price of a motorised screen with a projector interface command a price of over £1000? How can the cost of a 1 meter 15-pin plug to Scart plug cable, cost a discounted £80 (from£135)? It really is not on. It is the accessories that bug me really.

    So having done a Component Input v's HDMI Input test with a dealer, comparing like for like, I can: -

    1. No way accept that HDMI is an improvement on normal component - just too soft/blurred and fuzzy - indeed it is a retro-grade step.
    2. Consider the price of Sim's "H" models be worthwhile as compared with the non-"H" models.
    3. Think that a retro-fit "H" module at the price Sim2 are considering putting this on to the market at, be reasonable.

    Just another tanner's worth :)

    Paul

    ps The AV forum is the best around and the Sim2 forum is a very worthy addition
     
  10. Parmenion

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    Jeff, are you in a position to demonstrate two side by side Domino 20's, one showing HDMI and the other component.

    I've read so much on the various descriptions/merits of each resulting picture, that I would love to know for sure which really gives the best picture.

    regards

    Parmenion
     
  11. RTFM

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    Parmenion,

    I can demonstrate both HDMI and component simultaneously. I will be glad to show you this.

    Paul,

    I have to go out now but will reply to your comments tomorrow, but all I will say at this point is that if you think component is giving a better picture than HDMI then something is very wrong with the setup you have seen.
     
  12. Gary Lightfoot

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    I've seen HDMI from a pioneer 868ai into a Sim2 Link, and the picture was noticably better than than anything else - including DVI from HTPC. Though in that case I feel that calibrating the Sim2 to the HTPC would have evened up the comparison. Even so, I never thought I'd see a standalone player equal an HTPC, let alone better it - calibration notwithstanding

    I also recently saw a Pioneer 668 feeding a Domino 20H via HDMI, and when closely looking at the component image, it was noticably noisier than the HDMI image, which was much cleaner and sharper looking - just switching between the two sources easily revealed the differences. A huge improvement IMHO.

    So for me, that's two different set-ups on two different occasions, and both revealed the same improvements with HDMI.

    Gary.
     
  13. VUDSM

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    Paul,

    All consumers have choice as to whether to buy a product or not buy a product. If you think something is overpriced, don't buy it.

    Sim2 are like the high-end audio companies. You are paying a premium for the level of quality, performance, backup etc with the product. Unfortunately, like high-end audio there is no simple cost\performance relationship, ie. X might be twice the price of Y but it is not necessarily twice as good. You pay your money and make your choice. If you look at cables, some people pay US$2000 for a 1 metre power cord for one of their audio components. (I certainly wouldn't!)

    In relation to HDMI, I'm not sure what source and PJ you were using, but if HDMI looked soft\blurred\fuzzy when compared to component then something was faulty. I have not read anywhere that someone has preferred component to HDMI on a digital PJ.

    I have both a HDMI DVD player and a DVD player with component and VGA hooked up to my HT300 Link and the HDMI connection is better. But the VGA connection also looks very good (as does the component).

    If you a very happy with your current set-up, stick with it.

    Derek
     
  14. rozel

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    Then of course there is the fact that people who do spend loads of dosh on equipment/components, without fully researching first, go to extrordinary lengths to justify why they paid so much for a product in the first place!

    I accept the freedom of choice argument fully - I'm not arguing that point, just that prices in the Home Entertainment "Projection" industry are still at inflated prices that business can afford and who don't usually quibble about, but as more home-use customers join in the market, then prices should not be sustained at what can easily be argued to be at inflated levels.

    I am not necessarily looking soley to Sim2 - I am being general and probably detracting from the thrust of this thread, for which I apologise. However this has to taken into account when considering whether the price for Sim2's "H" models are worth the additional costs, particularly when a a well set up demo has taken place at a very reputable dealership and which unreservedly confirms that the HDMI input was very much inferior.

    I must speak as I find.

    Paul
     
  15. Gary Lightfoot

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    I have to agree with Derek that if the HDMI was inferior, then there was definately something wrong somewhere.

    When I went for an HT1000 demo about a year ago, I saw it against an Infocus X1, a Sharp Z90e and a Sim2 HT200DMF.

    The better picture came from the lower res Sim2 IMHO. It wasn't a huge leap in performance, but the colours (especialy skin tones)and smoothness of the image were apparent to me. The price difference and throw/resolution for seating distance meant that I went for the HT1000, but a year later, and things seemed to have moved forward with the Sim2s, so despite the price tag, I think they're worth that little extra.

    Of course, not everyone can afford the extra, and the cost of diminishing returns is always a factor to consider.

    Where are you located Rozel? I thnk if you could get down to RTFMs place for a demo, you'll see what everyone else seems to be seeing re HDMIs image superiority.

    Gary.
     
  16. RTFM

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    Paul,

    It goes without saying that as technology marches on, pricing of electronic equipment will continue to fall relative to your earnings.
    The computer industry is a classic example of this.
    I can remember paying nearly £3k for my first laptop, a 486/66.
    Look what you can buy for under £1k these days.

    I was just sent a magazine called Hi-Fi+. In this mag they reviewed some mains cables from Nordost. They have a 2m cable called the Valhalla. It retails for £1750. You could buy two of them for the price of a Domino 20.

    Paul, you are entitled to your own opinions on your observations regarding YUV vs. HDMI but I think you could be alone on this one.
    Look at Gary's post above. He is a well respected contributor to this and the US forums and runs a NEC HT1000 so his opinions are unbiased.

    Finally a recent UK magazine review of the Domino 20 said: "If we had not known the price of this projector we would have thought we were reviewing a £6000 unit"
     
  17. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
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    Err, excuse me Jeff, but you did not start this forum.
     
  18. VUDSM

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    Well, the other side of the coin is that people will argue that something is no good to justify why they don't buy it or don't have it!

    Anyway, why are you concerned about the price of the HDMI upgrade if you believe (based on what you viewed) that HDMI is worse than component. Surely it's not an issue then, don't upgrade. I wouldn't either. But maybe it's worth having another demo (somewhere else maybe) just to be sure.

    Derek
     
  19. KraGorn

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    Er, just how many new 6K 1024x576 projectors are there for them to make such a vacuous comment? With which said projector did they compare the D20? With which 3K did they compare? Was it worth double the price?
     
  20. RTFM

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    OK Stuart, let me put it another way.
    I suggested a Sim2 forum area to Alan Roser MD of Sim2 UK who endorsed the idea and you set it up. ;) :) ;)

    Regards

    Jeff
     
  21. Gary Lightfoot

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    Resolution aside, image quality has many other aspects to consider, and as I said before, the little HT200DMF produced a better image than the HT1000, but with only 848 x 480 resolution.

    Sit too close and the res will become an issue, but from further back where the res is not apparent, the other image factors come into play. I'm guessing it was those qualities that the reviewers were refering too.

    Just my 2p. :)

    Gary.
     
  22. RTFM

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    As Gary rightly says there's more to producing a good image than just resolution.
    The magazine review of the Domino 20 was not comparing the projector with any particular brand, model, or resolution.
    Their comment which I did not find expressionless, unintelligent or empty was based on what they would have expected to pay to acheive this quality of picture.
     
  23. KraGorn

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    We differ in our opinion of the worth of that phrase, I still consider it devoid of qualitative or quantitative meaning in isolation of any arguments justifying them.
     
  24. Paul Hayward

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    Hi KraGorn,

    I must say that I have seen many projectors side by side and one after the other. It is my opinion that the SIM2 D20 is one class, quality act. It is very close in image fidelity to the more expensive 720p models and it has wonderful colour, depth and transparency. As such it does indeed ooze class. At its current price it is a terrific bargain. You are quite right to point out that the mag does not make the neccessary comparisons, (which British magazine does?). However, I have done many comparisons myself and come to a similar conclusion that the D20 is competetive with many 6K projectors. In particular I have calibrated both the Domino 20, the Infocus 5700 and the NEC1000 to D65. I found the Domino 20 to be superior in many departments compared to the Infocus 5700 including black level, colour fidelity, depth etc. I also prefer the overall colour balance of the Domono 20 to the NEC1000. With HDMI, the image of the D20 just gets even better. Which brings me to my next point.

    Hi Paul,

    QUOTE from pauls post.

    1. No way accept that HDMI is an improvement on normal component - just too soft/blurred and fuzzy - indeed it is a retro-grade step.
    2. Consider the price of Sim's "H" models be worthwhile as compared with the non-"H" models.
    3. Think that a retro-fit "H" module at the price Sim2 are considering putting this on to the market at, be reasonable

    I really think you need a 'second opinion' on this demonstration of HDMI. I have seen HDMI on several occassions. The first was when I went on a visit to the SIM2 factory in Italy in my capacity as an HTProjectors.com journalist. In spite of some ambient light on that occssion, the Super Speedway clip we saw was quite simply as clean as a whistle. This promising start has been confirmed several times now both at RTFM's and at SIM2 UK using different HT300link projectors. HDMI is very noticably cleaner, more transparent and less noisy than component. It even seems to outperform DVI as well and I have no idea why this should be. You will notice than NONE of the magazines support the view that HDMI is inferior and why would the likes of Pioneer and Meridian hitch there DVD video wagon to an inferior medium? In my view HDMI is worth its weight in gold as a digital video medium. I just wish my old HT300 had HDMI and I would willingly pay a good £700 for the privilage let alone the £250 for the D20H. But alas I am left out in the cold.

    Best Wishes,

    Paul H
     
  25. Steve Stifler

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    Hi Paul and KraGorn
    I spent plenty of time sitting on the fence waiting to upgrade my old Sony LCD. So long in fact that the HT300 was introduced and then upgraded and then along came the Domino range. I bought a D20 from RTFM, having had the opportunity to demo a range of PJs with him and elsewhere. I thought the Infocus 5700 was OK, but I always preferred the SIM2 range. Its a bit like computers, if you keep waiting for the next processor upgrade, you could end up never buying anything.

    I'm not disappointed with my SIM2 at all. It gave the picture I preferred to the competition I saw. In any case I think the extra cost of the SIM2 PJ might be offset by much greater longevity of the lamp, as I've heard of the 6000 hour life being exceeded in some cases. Other PJs seem to get through bulbs quicker IMHO - the old Sony seemed to be going dimmer after 1500 hours, and that with out high contrasts settings. Perhaps I'm biased, but I do like SIM2's products.
    Regards
    Jezz
     
  26. foghorn

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    Having raised the original post I feel it necessary to clarify a few points.

    Firstly I never suggested that the original price of the Domino 20 was inflated. In fact for the original price of £3750, this projector provides excellent value and picture quality.

    For anyone who is in the market for a projector and is considering spending £4000 or more, I believe you will be doing yourself an injustice if you do not put the domino 20 on your shortlist.

    I agree with the point that people who decide to buy a more expensive projector may have to justify to themselves the reason for doing so. I believe this projector reaches a level of performance where you start to see diminishing returns in more expensive models.

    Secondly with regard to the Domino 20H I will once again make the point that the increase of £250 does not seem justified. If you can accept the fact that HDMI adds to the production cost of the Sim2 range then all projectors should have been subject to an increase in price, not just one model.

    This may seem like a small quibble to some people and I agree that if you are prepared to spend £3750 then a further £250 is neither here nor there, but it is the justification and the principle, which is important.

    Perhaps Alan from Sim2 could provide the answer I am looking for.

    When I get the opportunity to demo the Domino20H then I will make my decision, however if I was to chose the 20H it will be a future proofing feature the current price of HDMI Cables (especially 10m lengths) and HDMI dvd players are at the moment to expensive and subject to a limited choice.
     
  27. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Foghorn

    Whilst one piece HDMI cables over 5m are all but non existent we now have Gefen in-line adapters to join HDMI to HDMI and HDMI to DVI - two 5m HDMI cables plus an adapter can be had for under £125 from Molex and under £170 from BetterCables.

    Best regards

    Joe Fernand
     
  28. Dak

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    My tuppence worth...:

    On the cost front, as sales of projectors increase then so will costs and purchase prices drop.

    This is simple economics:
    1. The more units that a manufacturer makes the greater its purchasing power when buying components. This is one of the reasons some manufacturers (none suggested or alluded to here by me) continue to use outdated components on new models: they have a supply deal going or stocks to use up.

    2. After / when a product is developed the overall cost includes the R&D, production line set up, components, manuals, advertising etc etc. In my industry (film and music) we work out how many we are likely to sell and set the price to cover the R&D etc investment. This means that a certain number must be sold to break even. As interest and then sales projections increase then these projections can be recalculated and the R&D etc cost spread between more customers which results in cheaper prices (and this follows down to the components on the same basis so it is circular).

    On the performance front, I have a Dom20 HDMI and Pio 868 and no HDMI link yet: Joe and I need to talk again after I have got the 15-17m measuring tape out. I look forward to the upgrade in picture which I have witnessed on short lengths of HDMI...:cool:
     
  29. foghorn

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    On the AVS Forum over the past couple of weeks, members interested in Sim2 projectors have been getting quite excited in fact doubly excited.

    First came the news that Sim2USA was to introduce HDMI to the Sim2 Range and secondly the even better news that there was to be no increase in price, and yes that includes the Domino 20.

    So there you have it the domino 20H will retail for the same recommended price, as did the Sim2 domino 20.

    So if anyone from Sim2USA is viewing this great AV Forum, well done for a sensible pricing policy when adding HDMI to the whole projector range.

    Lets hope its not to long before Sim2UK can receive a similar pat on the back, for what is a great range in projectors.
     
  30. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    Just been reading through the posts and a few points - as ever:

    rozel (Paul) - do keep in mind the manufacturers have to pay a licence for HDCP chip sets so HDMI or DVI with HDCP is likely to cost more than non HDCP DVI inputs.

    Don't start a business selling presentation kit if you think the corporate market will happily accept high priced projectors - 5% profit on a sub £1k LCD projector is the norm these days (and then you get into the Education market).

    Jeff - you have to be having a laugh if you think you'll have a Forum that's not price sensitive :) go to the Projector or Plasma forum and count the percentage of posts that start with - 'where is the cheapest' and have a look at the majority of banner adds on the Forums they all shout out about product X being discounted.

    If you want no talk of pricing rename the Forum to the SIM2 Owners club.

    KraGorn - like you I hate it when magazine reviews throw in the old ' its as good as an £x product - does that imply all £x products are created equal.

    PaulH - HDMI is a Video interconnect DVI is (in the main) a PC (data video) interconnect - done correctly DVI inputs should have the ability to switch from Data to Video mode otherwise Video can look washed out as the Black levels on a DVI for PC input are wrong for Video over DVI.

    HDMI (the connector) - please keep in mind HDMI is not a video standard its an interconnect standard; there are/will be good and bad HDMI equipped bits of kit and currently there are plenty of non HDMI sources that can outperform HDMI equipped sources.

    HDMI has one purpose in life - Encryption, that's it pure and simple its not about better image quality its about copy protection; if you want best image quality do what the professionals do and go SDI.

    Steve - lamps may 'last' a long time but picture quality definitely drops off big time; 1500 on a Sony LCD is about right after that you get horrid colour casts.

    Best regards

    Joe
     

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