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Sim2 300 Plus V`s Sony Vpl Vw12ht-big Surprise!!!

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by cine king, Dec 22, 2002.

  1. cine king

    cine king
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    Today I went projector buying,it was time for me to upgrade-and having had the Sony 11ht-I wanted to step up.

    I pretty much had my heart set on the Sim2 ht300+-I had read great things of it and having seen the 300-and liked the picture-thought the 300+ could only be better.

    I had a long demo of a carefully setup 300+ fed by the new Arcam dvd player via some mega expensive component leads.

    The guy taking the demo knew his stuff and had tweaked the picture a bit.

    I looked at Fifth Element and Gladiator-two discs where I am very familiar with how the picture should look!!

    Yep.the 300+ had a very smooth picture-not particularly bright-but great blacks and shadow details.
    The colours looked a little lukewarm-but reds were fabulous!
    Couldnt see any artifacts in the picture,no jaggies-nothing-

    I liked this projector very much.

    But then whilst coming to the end of the demo and having pretty much made up my mind to buy,I had an idea....

    I had been talking about shootouts in another thread -specifically how the new Sony 12ht would shape up against the Sim.

    I had seen a 12ht a couple of months back-liked it-but didnt feel there was enough of a significant improvement over the 11ht I had.

    Really I wanted to gloat on how much better the 300+ I was going to buy was over the Sony.

    ..So I asked the salesman if he carried the Sony?

    Yes he did. Could I have a quick look?

    He took a brand new Sony 12ht out of the box in front of me-disconnected the Sim-and put the component leads into the Sony.

    He did not put the cinema filter on.

    I watched the same scenes on the Sony and could not believe what I was seeing??????????

    The Sony was brighter,sharper,better saturated colours,better fine detail-and smooth.
    The blacks looked blacker than the Sim?!!!!!!!!!

    The picture looked real-whereas the Sim looked flat-I couldnt believe it!!!!!

    This was the Sony out of the box-on Low temp-no filter -no tweaking?????????

    I was gutted ...I went back to the Sim and tried to match the Sonys picture for dynamics and vibrance-I could not.

    Even the salesman looked stunned-he started to say ...well the Sim`s more natural with colours-but it was half hearted.

    We started chatting-and he conceeded that the Sony was better-and believe me -neither of us wanted to admit that!!!!!!!!!

    Having taken the missus with me-I asked for her opinions-she didnt know the prices of either projector-but again she preferred the Sony-and actually asked if that was the more expensive one!

    Well,though I had no intention of doing so-I bought the Sony.

    Why did it impress me this much when I wasnt overawed before?

    A couple of reasons;-

    (1) My 11ht was extensively picture tweaked over a period of time.The source my p.c.- running Sonic Cineplayer with a Gforce ti200 and Powerstrip outputting via vga out to component in.

    I had performed tweaks using Avia and adjusted the RGB in the service menus.
    In short-this was much improved to an out of the box 11ht.

    (2) When I saw the 12ht for the first time it was at a different dealers and was a demo model-and had been played about with.
    Sometimes dealer setup models are set for effect-the brightness and contrast overcooked.
    Plus at the time,I had no point of comparison other than my souped up 11ht.
    I must add that even this 12ht had a better picture than my 11ht.


    So this time,the 12ht has had a chance to show what it can do.

    I know people will think-well the Sim2 could not have been set-up properly.

    I can assure you it was.

    An out of the box 12ht has seen off a Sim2 300plus-three of us in the demo-three of us agreed.

    Im still stunned-but VERY happy with the Sony.

    Im also pleased because this confirms to myself what i believed.

    You cannot go by the specs-or the inflated contrast ratio figures-or the dealers who sing the praises of the dearer p.j.`s because they stand to make more dough!.....or the AVS "gurus" who fickly proclaim a new projector king every week-and who have practically written off the 12ht-because one of them saw it at an exhibition -and thought the Nec ht1000 he saw was better!!

    Hell,I saw Bose at an exhibition once and thought they were great!

    What was even more interesting,was the salesman had seen the Marantz s2(reckoned to be the 300+ killer)-and thought the Sim better!

    Ill tell you what though,ill lay money he never does that shootout for a customer again!
    :) :)
     
  2. BadAss

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    So how much was the Sony and how much more was you prepared to pay for the Sim300+?
     
  3. Kavin_Andi

    Kavin_Andi
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    This is VERY interesting.

    The HT1000 is obviously recieving a lot of hype at the moment particularly from our US colleagues.

    A word of warning to those who had this PJ on their short list: PAL tearing @ refresh rates other than 60Hz is still and issue.
    To date I have heard of no definitive response from NEC.

    The VPLW12HT, Yamaha DPX1000, PLV60 and ZV9000 are currently on my shortlist.

    I'm upgrading from a fabulous XGA DLP and ulitimately want a smooth, natural, well balanced image from a quiet PJ. (I rarely see rainbows).

    If I went for the Sony as my frist LCD there are three things which I need to put my mind at rest:

    1. DEAD PIXELS. Do you have any? Can they appear de-novo after a period of time?

    2. NOISE: what is the dB rating?

    3. SCREENDOOR: Is this a non-issue with WXGA?

    I hope to see one for myself in the near future.


    Thanks.

    KA.
     
  4. MarkHudds

    MarkHudds
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    I'd also be interested to hear if you had any problems with your 12HT purchase, as I've had a nightmare with my 11HT :eek: :eek:

    Cheers
     
  5. coolhand101

    coolhand101
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    Just what i wanted to hear.
    i was going for the 12ht but on the avs forum they were slagging it down. Now the 300+ is 3-4000 pounds more, elsewere the 12ht was 5000 pounds cheaper than the 300+. my main concern with the 12ht was dead pixels but this has MUCH improved with the 12ht.
    i was going for the sharp z10000 which ive seen for 1500-2000 pounds more but i cant get the manual for it anywhere(the z9000 manual i got was helpful but the z9000 had a few flaws, no dvi, 4x3 pc output, not many screen aspects) So i always read the user manual first then a demo of a projector.

    for me its a toss up between the sony vw-12ht or the sharp zv-x10000.

    any opinons on these too?

    thanks
     
  6. Tinus

    Tinus
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    How about the Toshiba MT8 it's about 7000 Euro's (4500 Pounds) inc vat.

    Regards,

    Thijs Post
     
  7. coolhand101

    coolhand101
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    Yes, when i heard that tosh were doing a 16x9 dlp pj a smile came on my face. I do like toshiba gear also there prices are not that high and they do come down in price quick. Cant remember why i didnt choose it though, i got a few spec details on it also i need to download the user manual on it. Has anyone seen a detail review on the mt8 yet? also im trying to download the user manual for the-

    1.sharp xv-z10000

    2.sony vpl-vw12ht

    (and tosh,s mt8)

    I know there quite new but they must be on the net somewhere(done some searching last week but nothing, just links to the vw11ht and x9000 user manuals which i got already)

    im concern why AVS forums are not excited about it, although most of the reviews were at shows and exibs(perhaps a AV shop or a home setup will change that).

    any more detail info or links or anyone thats got one PLEASE give us more details.

    Thanks
     
  8. cine king

    cine king
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    I was prepared to pay 8 grand for the Sim.(I didnt pay that for the Sony-suffice it to say-a few grand less!!).

    I have seen the Infocus 7200-and though good,it is not in the same league as the Sim or the Sony.I cant see the MT8 clone being any different.

    At the end of the day,I will view comments/read reviews/look at specs the same as all of you-because its my hobby.

    But I would NEVER buy a projector unless I had seen it in action-and had a point of comparison.

    With the money I saved on NOT buying the Sim,I bought a Panasonic th-42pw5 plasma and tuner box..

    I think now,anyone that spends 8 or 9 grand on the Sim-seriously needs their head examined!!!
    CK
     
  9. Paul Hayward

    Paul Hayward
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    Hi Cine,

    I'm glad to hear that you are enjoying your new pj and believe it to be a bargain. However, I think your last comment about Sim2 purchasers 'needing their heads examined' is beneath the quality and spirit of your original review. Sim2 have been manufacturing CRT's for many years now and they deliberately manufacture and balance out the HT300/300+ to show colours and black level closest to the CRT standard with minimum artifacts but with a consequently lower light output than some competitors. Your review and opinions demonstrate that you prefer the kind of image and colours projected by an LCD projector. I seriously doubt that the blacks of the Sim2 are worse than the Sony 12HT. The Sony may look a little blacker in bright scenes in comparison due to its higher lumen output. But in low contrast scenes, the blacks and shadow detail of the Sim2's are much more more likely to excel. This kind of comparison between HT300 and Sony 11HT has been discussed before. I believe the poster was a member called Doug. The point is that these comparisons are SUBJECTIVE and very much a matter of taste. You review did not measure colour relative to simpte colour standard, check for accurate gray scale tracking or re-calibrate each pj to the D65 colour standard, measure accurate lumen output ect. The conclusions I draw from your review, which was well conducted, are that you prefer a bolder, brighter image with a more intensely saturated colour balance. I, on the other hand, cannot get on with LCD. I find the image too artificial for my taste and prefer the natural and 'to my eye' more filmic rendition of the Sim2 range and am prepared to pay top dollar for it. One could argue that all us HT enthusiasts are 'out of our minds' in our obsessive quest for the very best in image quality. But to single out one group who may disagree with you by voting to pay extra for the Sim2's and judging the expense to be worthwhile, does seem to lower the value of the debate in my view.

    Best Wishes,

    Paul H
     
  10. cine king

    cine king
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    Hi Paul,
    Thanks for your reply.
    May I start by stating that I meant no offence to 300+ owners-it is a great projector!

    I was saying that from my point of view and after extensive comparison,I did not feel the extra expense to be justified.

    But to answer some of your points.

    I believe the 300+ I saw was calibrated to 6500k,whereas the Sony was out of the box with NO TWEAKING.

    The more"filmic" picture attributed to the 300+ is I think now a myth and more because of the slight defocusing of the image and reduced lumens.

    It is true that the 300+ colours are more muted-more natural?..This is subjective-the only area where I thought the 300+ knicked it from the Sony was in the reds-and that was very slight.

    Otherwise,there was no real difference in the colours other than the Sony having more punch to the colours.

    It may well be true that the 300+ has better shadow detail on paper but in reality the better dynamic range of the Sony and the increased lumens gave a bolder more distinct seperation to blacks and whites.

    I think the trouble is now-and I have mentioned this before-is that people are too guided by specs and sometimes by calibrations.

    I have seen some projectors calibrated to 6500k that have looked very dim and muted-and worse to how they have looked out of the box.

    The japanese calibrate to 9300k -which is correct? again this is a question of personal opinion.

    All of our aims is to get the picture the way we envision it best-the way in which it works for us.

    Many times I have tweaked to 6500k -then adjusted slightly afterwards by eye.

    Side by side,I preferred the Sony-and remember I went to buy a 300+.

    When you factor in the economics of the situation,it made no sense to me to spend a lot of extra money by deceiving myself that the lesser picture was more filmic ..more natural..when my eyes told me different.

    If you want to believe this is the case,good luck to you and I wish you many happy hours viewing with the 300+-as I said,its a great projector.

    For me,I made the right decision and can only hope my comments can assist in pointing people towards similar comparisons where they can judge for themselves without the pre-conceptions of the hype ruling sound judgements.
    CK.
     
  11. Paul Hayward

    Paul Hayward
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    Hi Cine,

    No offence taken and in truth I have not been able to compare these pj's in the way you have. I have, however, AB'ed the Sony 11HT and the Sim2 HT300 and I prefered the Sim2 image by a large margin. You have peeked my curiosity and I will endeavour to get a demo of this new pj shortly. I would make one correction to your reply. It is highly doubtful that the Sim2 HT300+ was D65 calibrated when you saw it, unless you can confirm that the dealer had used a colour analyser to reset the high and low gains in the service menu. This issue has been extensively discussed in the AVSForum and those who do calibrate the Sim2 HT300 range professionally have never found a true D65 calibration out of box on any of the factory set colour temps. However, I do agree with your thought about the results of such a calibration being something some people like while others may prefer a bluer of greener shift to the picture.

    Anyway, I do hope you are enjoying your new pj. After all, this is really what it is all about.

    Best Wishes,

    Paul H
     
  12. cine king

    cine king
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    Hi Paul,
    Thanks again for your reply,I might add that it was in reading some of your posts on AVS that contributed towards my heading towards the 300+.

    I really wanted the 300+ to be my fave-and as such was biased going into the demo.

    As I said earlier.I was stunned at the result of the shootout-I had heard the 12ht almost dismissed as a contender on AVS.

    Had I not seen the 12ht,I would have bought the 300+.

    ..And lets be fair,any one of the hd2 projectors-or the Sony is going to give great results-we will always be splitting hairs to a certain extent-thats the fun of this game!

    But when you get into the economics of the situation and think that you can pick up a 12ht for 3k ish from Japan-though your heading towards the 9k mark with the 300+-it makes the buying decision a bit of a no brainer.

    You are left with two scenarios;-

    Either Sim have overpriced the 300+-or Sony have underpriced the 12ht ?

    Because when you see them in a shootout-whichever side you come down on,theres nothing in it to justify such a price difference!

    You may be right about the 300+ not having been calibrated to d65(..but then neither was the Sony..)-but it tracked pretty accurately to my eyes-I would hazard a guess that its fairly close to d65 out of the box-maybe thats the problem?= d65 accurate is not always the best?

    Anyway,I would be really interested in your further opinions if you can arrange your own shootout.
    Best Regards,
    CK.
     

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