Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Stuart Wright, Mar 9, 2017.
How is that linked 2015 Leaf Tekna only £8k?!?
And 'professionals' like car journalists are never biased, they never care about upsetting companies who have paid to put adverts in their magazine/on website
Doing your own research is key, go and look into the actual energy costs of producing fossil fuel, how much electricity is needed to refine one litre of petrol, changes in how electricity is now generated in the UK/Norway/Germany, look at the real life research into battery cell life as well as manufacturing.
I have looked at all the above, and once you put all the pieces together the answer is pretty obvious.
Our current status quo of using energy like its unlimited is simply unsustainable, but we are on the edge of huge energy revolution, transitioning away from generating electricity using different ways to make steam is paramount. Renewable electricity generation and EVs are only part of the answer to a much bigger issue.
The only real question in my mind is can we get there before it's too late....
I don't think many people buy them. I certainly didn't. Lease all the way. Too new and volatile a market as the price of that Leaf shows.
The enthusiasm comes from the fact that we are trying to counter the default assumptions people have about how you use a car. Seriously there is no way I could ever go back. Yes we have two cars but I use my wife's ICE car for maybr 1 or 2 journeys a year. The challenge with extra long journeys, for most people, is easily solved and the rest of the time the whole experience is so much better.
For balance, I was dangerously overtaken by a **** driving a Merc (P11 MAS if he's listening) on our small village high street yesterday because he thought my car was slow. You get that a lot. People trying to set themselves up to overtake if you have the audacity to do something near the speed limit. They're usually bitterly disappointed. Actually I was trying not to accelerate too hard and throw our guinea pigs around after we turned out of the vet car park.
Edit: wow the sweary filter on here is pretty puritanical. Looks worse as asterisks.
This is a 'flex' car so you don't own the battery. You have to pay Nissan around £80/month indefinitely otherwise they will disable the battery remotely.
I agree. The most valuable advice comes from the most balanced experience. I can only speak about the Ioniq because I researched online and decided that was the best car for us (other cars being out of our budget or having lower range). I've test driven it for 20 minutes, but that's it so far. Haven't even sat in any other EV. So my advice is very biased and unbalanced from the broader EV perspective.
Which is why my vlog #1 is about the decision making process which changed from used diesel SUV to new EV.
And vlog #2 is about the installation of the home charging Pod Point.
Further vlogs will be my experiences of owning an EV for the first time.
I admit that I am an EV advocate and I want everyone to have one. And I acknowledge that technology hasn't reached the point where an EV is more convenient for everyone than an ICE car. We'd need a 300 mile range as standard, 10 minutes to 80% charging network as common as petrol stations and charge points where people have on-road parking.
When advocating for EV, at no point will I state something without the experience to back it up. I wouldn't ever, for example, state that the Ioniq has the best comfort of comparable EVs because I'm not qualified to state that.
I can, on the other hand, compare it, when it arrives, to what I *have* experienced, which is our current Audi A4 Avant and former cars like the Lotus Elise.
Just as with televisions, there is no perfect product. While they are all built to a price, there will always be compromises. And when price is no object, it's cost is prohibitive to most people.
I'd like a Tesla, but can't afford one.
So yes there are drawbacks with owning EVs as have previously been mentioned.
I think, though, that any arguments against them such as suggestions that their production has a larger carbon footprint than ICE cars needs to be backed up with sources. Don't like fake news or arguments based on misinformation.
Ok this one then...
Nissan Leaf Visia+ 5Dr Auto Electric Hatchback 1.0
Still, the point was, a 1-2 year old £30k car can be had for around £8k. That is crazy depreciation.
Very very few people paid £30K for a Leaf if ANY.
The deal I had included £5K 'contribution' from Nissan, less £5K from the 'EV grant', it took the actual price down from £26K (list price at the time) to £16K.
Nissan than gave me a true '0%' APR PCP offer, which meant £0 deposit. I than paid £200/month for 2 years, and if I wanted to I could have bought if I paid the final payment.
I should point out you cannot get a battery owned 1-2 year old Leaf for £8K, the car you point to in the advert is the base spec Visa which from memory was £24K before incentives. So after incentives it's probably lost about 50% value in 2 years, which is bad, but nothing unusual for a mass produced family hatch back.
Nissan/Renault shot themselves in the foot with residuals on the Leaf/Zoe by offering their unbelievable 0% PCP deals over the last few years.
Opposite to Nissan, Tesla don't do any discounts, not a single penny off even their top spec £150K+ cars apart from the government EV grant. Their PCP deals are also sustainable, so non of this 0% rubbish. The result is deprecation that better that of even the Porsche Macan!!!
I was all ready to buy a used 2-3 year old Tesla, but used prices are simply holding firm. £50K will buy you a used 3 year old car with 30-40K on the clock when £60K will buy you a brand new one. Personally I think you have to be a bit mad to buy a used Tesla when prices are still so close to new, but not everyone want to wait 6-8 months for their new car.
Slowest-depreciating cars on sale
10 grand is a lot of money if you are trying to get a Tesla and 50K is the top of your budget. They also hold value well because people may see second hand as being the only way to get to get one as they can't wait the long delivery periods. If Tesla started producing more cars the used price would fall.
The 3 is going to spend a long time with used prices buoyed by people trying to get around the dpelivery times which seem more ludicrous than the mode on the cars.
Heres the opinion of a 'professional' car journalist about EVs...
Opinion: Why gas-powered cars make sense | Autocar
`Audi says a gas-powered A5 will cost the same as the diesel but needs far less in the way of exhaust after-treatment. Compared with an electric car, it is lighter, is much less expensive and isn’t full of complex battery technology. For the next 10-15 years, gas makes more sense and is arguably greener than battery power.'
So they have given up doing any back research and now directly quoting manufacturers claims......
This also appeared in my inbox yesterday, Toyota/Lexus still perusing a marketing strategy aimed at trying to discredit battery EVs.
The amount of fake news/misinformation produced by established companies about EVs is simply staggering. But its all starting to feel a bit desperate, and we are only just about to see affordable EVs hit the mass market......
Cannot wait to see how things play out .
Personally I can't see the fake news in those things. LPG was and is an alternative to petrol and diesel as fuel and it is greener in emissions. Hybrid manufacturers pointing out advantages of their technology are not exactly providing misinformation about EVs either.
For a while all the technologies will have to exist together while people work out what is wanted.
EVs do have a carbon footprint and there have been huge steps to reduce that so the technology can make headway against the existing ICE vehicles that dominate the people's lives and minds. If every car made tomorrow onwards was an EV the problems mentioned will exist. There has to be a period where things change over and there is little to be gained IMO in sides being formed about who is right and wrong about things.
I declined their offer and they rang back today with a price of £210 per month. Would that be a good deal? Guaranteed at least £11k minimum trade in, in 3 years.
Seems pricey with that big deposit. Are you specifying a lot of miles?
Isn't the deposit just £2k though?
Even so, there are loads of PCP deals about for less than £2k deposit.
Yes, a £2k deposit as there is £3k finance to clear. Specified 11,000 miles per year.
2nd hand Leaf PCP deals seem to be similar or even more than that:
Used Nissan Leaf For Sale | Electric Car | Lookers Nissan
It's the extras they try and convince you to have that can bump it up. GAP Insurance (that we took) Body Care, Wheel Care and the now infamous SupaGuard
They didn't mention any extras except the gap insurance which I declined.
I like EVs and it's great to see how rapidly the technology is improving now the market is there.
That said there must be a train of thought that hopes they don't become too successful. Fuel duties and VAT on fuel currently brings in around £40bn per annum of tax revenue for the government. Forgetting the power infrastructure issue for a moment, if everyone switched to EVs how is this revenue replaced?
At the same time, tobacco tax revenue has declined in real terms since 2012 and alcohol duty revenue stagnated.
These are the 3 "biggies" as far as duties are concerned and the future is bleak for all of them! At the moment EV use is subsidised by tax payers, I can't see that lasting for long. Is there an ethical argument not to go electric?
They'll just start to tax EVs. Has to happen at some point. Hopefully they will have the wisdom to wait until the price has come down enough to compensate.
With the increasing use of EVs, emissions are moved from cars to power station plants. Note: emissions are not being reduced - they are being moved.
In addition, solar panels do not work in the dark and windmills stop spinning if there’s no wind. So the big major power stations - coal, gas and nuclear - remain to carry the load. That load will increase hugely if all electric cars, lorries and buses replace ICE vehicles.
There is also the problem of the use and advertising of "zero emissions" claim. There is some argument with experts if EVs are actually more environmentally friendly than ICE vehicles, bearing in mind the manufacturing process for EVs and their battery packs are taken into account, as well as battery disposal.
Have you not looked into a single article/link on energy production people have posted on here??
Uk energy demand is DROPPING due to more efficient appliances, increasing local grid generation. Most people will also charge their EVs overnight, where currently huge amounts of electricity is wasted because no one uses it.
Than you have to account for electricity/energy used to refine/transport petrol, if we stop refining the stuff therw would be massive amounts of grid capacity freeded up!!
As for the well to wheel argument as I've said before just Google it and you can read all the literature, simple summary, the electric motor is 80-90% efficient at converting energy to motion compared to <50% even for a Toyota Prius. You can do your own maths for there
@Alan CD You have previously claimed your not 'anti EV' but wanted to see evidence before making up your mind. But it seems you are choosing not to looke at or understand the evidence presented instead choosing to stick to prior ideology. The more research I do into renewable power generation the more shocked I am why we are still building massive power stations. Virtually every life form on this planet exist because of photosynthesis, the fact our species are on the cusp of switching from burning fossil fuel to harnessing the power of sun/wind/tides fills me with excitement. Change is coming, change is needed, and change is good .
What energy source do they use to refine oil? And to refine the oil to fuel the transportation of petrol and diesel? And power oil rigs? And to power the military needed to secure sources of oil in the Middle East?
And we don't really use coal any more.
There is no question that even if you use the current UK energy mix and don't go fully renewable, EVs are cleaner even with the long tailpipe. Plus gas power stations are way cleaner in terms of NOX and particulates than millions of tiny engines, which just happen to be right in city centres, anyway.
BMW's manufacturing process for the i3 is considerably more environmentally sound than anything else.
@gangzoom I don't believe lots of electricity is wasted overnight at the moment. Lots of capacity goes unused. The grid is still balanced.
This is a very important point given how many of our city centres are choked with smog from ICE powered vehicles.
Moved to the General Chat forum for a while to put it infront of a broader audience.
Had a laugh yesterday. Went on a 60 mile journey, picking up some friends for a party. Had to nip out for 30 minutes to rapid charge to get home they would have been ok and I could have charged after that on the way home but didn't fancy siting around at 1am.
Good excuse for a break from the non-drinking and grab a coffee instead though to be honest!
An article in an Irish paper this week claimed that 30% of those polled claimed they would consider an EV for their next car.
Highly sceptical of those numbers mind you. There are definitely more on the road over here especially since the Ioniq surpassed all expectations but still a very niche market.
The new Zoe and Leaf should definitely make things interesting though.
Been talking to a few people at work they usually change their cars every 3to4 years,they say they can see maybe not their next car but the one after that will be electric so 6to7 years time.
Well one of my mates husband, who has a BMW M4, is going to see his dealer to trade it on for an i3 after seeing me go on about Ioniq. He has realised he doesn't actually need or use any of the stuff it does.
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