should we get rid of the NHS

Should we get rid of the NHS

  • keep the NHS

    Votes: 84 79.2%
  • get rid of the NHS

    Votes: 22 20.8%

  • Total voters
    106

signs

Banned
If the NHS is as good as they say,how come were one of the few countries to have this system?
should we go down the private route?
i ask this because my elderly next door neighbour went into hospital last week for a hip replacement (after months and months of waiting,the op went well, but she has now contracted MRS) she did consider going private but felt she had paid enough into the NHS

Most dentist are now private so why not the NHS?
 

Ultima

Distinguished Member
I think we should keep it, we pay enough National Insurance towards it. Not sure about privatisation, shareholders always want that little bit more and the only way that can happen is if profits go up.

Lets keep it as a National Service.

Martin
 

pave

Banned
Hi,signs:)

Sorry to hear about your next door neighbour,but in my experience.....

At the moment,i am looking after my mother,she lives in an extension at the back of my house,
She is 87,and needs alot of looking after,the district nurses have been great,any probs and they are there,
looking at private care and can not afford it,private homes e.t.c
i myself could not have afforded any other care,

I also broke my foot a year or so ago and i was treated very well
I think it is all down to your personel experiences on this one,
some people will have bad ones others good,


As for the dentist,i let my teeth go and as a result i had a huge bill
over £2,500,insurance would not touch me as my teeth were bad,ok,my fault

But private dentistry would make people think twice about going ,I was in the position i could pay it.....
well my credit card was:)
 

abraxus

Active Member
I agree that it's far from ideal, but on balance think we should keep it.

The problem is that whilst private care has to be efficient or no-one will pay for it, it also needs to make a profit. Once efficiency has been maximised it can then only increase prices, which takes it out of the range of many people . An NHS provides some benchmark to keep these in check.

The NHS alone, dos not need to make a profit, but to improve services, has little incentive to be more efficient, when it can just ask for more money.

I therefore believe that we should have both, so those who need it, whether they've contributed or not, have access to healthcare, and those who prefer not to use it have a choice, which also reduces the NHS burden.

Getting rid of one or the other would most likley result in the worsening of healthcare provison by whichever type of service is left, in my opinion.
 

Garrett

Moderator
Is it the case of the MRS didn’t they subcontracted the cleaning to private firms?

The trouble with the NHS there are to many pen pushers sitting round on committee meetings and not enough people where it counts. The NHS was someone to go in with a broom and get rid of the top end and start hiring more people that actually work with the patients.

Sort of read this week something that they were subcontracting the suppliers out now. The suppliers worked before on a non profit basis, but now will be a private firm with profits to make so I can see that costing more money or a poorer service.

Mind you the bowfins that come up with these bright ideas will have private care.
 

Mrs AutomanUK

Active Member
There is a lot of hype about MRSA which the media blow out of all proportion, and the facts get thrown out of the window. The fact of the matter is, we all are probably carriers of MRSA. We are fit and healthy though as it just lives dormant in our systems until we have a period of time where our bodies need to deflect the energy to healing of a wound or fighting a stomach or chest infection. MRSA is treatable with the right regime of washes and ointments, and preventable by the use of some lotion which can be obtained at ASDA of all places, called Skin Sure ( I think) which has bee proven to eradicate MRSA.

However, the point you are making is, she caught this infection because she went NHS instead of private. This is a crazy thing to say, because MRSA is just as prevalent in private hospitals as it is in NHS ! Private hospitals keep their figures down though because their patients are all basically there for elective surgery, so they are not walking in the door with a chest infection, or gastric bug in the first place. They are given the same operation as they would get in an NHS hospital, and the infection risks are equal to each other. It's a myth that private hospitals are cleaner. I have worked in one and let me tell you, don't be fooled by the plush carpets and fancy pictures on the walls. Carpets harbor bugs much, much more readily than polishable floors !!

I think you would find that the NHS system we have here is actually the envy of other countries. It is grossly underfunded, however the ethos that everybody can receive medical an nursing care regardless of their financial abilities is one that is to be commended. Yes, there are various waiting lists which also hit the headlines, but there are also many success stories happening on the wards on a daily basis which never get the media's attention.

I was privileged to look after a old guy one time when I was working in London, who had been found looking pretty close to death by a passing ambulance crew. He had been living rough since he had effectively lost his job when he turned 65. The flat he lived in was given to him as part of his job, and when he was no longer in that job, he had to leave. He was not particularly bright but also had no family to help him, or advice about what he should do about somewhere to live. He never knew that he could claim a pension off the government,because he could not read the letters he was sent. He was 74 so had been living rough for 9 years. He was infested with lice, had hair down the length of his back and was thin as a rake. He was not an alcoholic like many of them are, he was just a victim of circumstance. We gave this man the full works. Regardless of who he was, to us he was a man who was in desperate need of our help. We bathed him, De-loused him and got him a hair cut. We fed him 3 good meals a day, and spent time talking to him. This is where we finally found out his story where he found himself homeless because he was no longer working. We got a social worker involved, and when she found out that he had 9 years of pension and social assistance owing to him, she could not wait to tell him the news ! When this man left our care, he was well dressed, he was fed and healthy, he looked weather beaten but he was smiling because we restored his pride in himself. He was also more financially secure than he had been in his whole life, and was on his way to a nice place to live that the social had found him, and he would be followed up in the community by voluntary services as well as social workers to make sure he got a life back which he should never have lost in the first place.

To me, this is the NHS. This is the organization which I am proud to work in, and I just know that in any other country, this guy would be dead on the streets because the ambulance crew would drive on by without a second glance. It's mans inhumanity to man which sickens me. We have a great health service and we should be proud of it, and fight to protect it, if only for the likes of my patient.
 

The Dude

Distinguished Member
If somebody can tell me what % of my income I will need to save in order to have all my (and everybody else's) medical needs attended to (eventually) then I'll gladly vote to scrap the NHS.


The only reason I'm still here*, and still have legs, is due to the unbelievable persistance and professionalism of some of our crappy NHS surgeons & staff. :clap:

While I was in hospital having my leg re-attatched I contracted both septicemia and MRSA, but I for one certainly won't be chasing after any ambulances... (no pun intended :D)


It's a BIG 'keep it' from me. :thumbsup:





* a poor result for the rest of society, admittedly.. :D
 

Mylo

Distinguished Member
Me too:thumbsup: , the NHS have patched me up many times, even though my local hospital is supposed to be a pile of :censored: according to the moaners and the press.

You also get private rooms in the same hospitals as NHS rooms so where the link to MRSA.

I have medical insurance but have only used it once as I pay my national insurance and will get my moneys worth.:lesson:
 

signs

Banned
Mrs AutomanUK said:
There is a lot of hype about MRSA which the media blow out of all proportion, and the facts get thrown out of the window. The fact of the matter is, we all are probably carriers of MRSA. We are fit and healthy though as it just lives dormant in our systems until we have a period of time where our bodies need to deflect the energy to healing of a wound or fighting a stomach or chest infection. MRSA is treatable with the right regime of washes and ointments, and preventable by the use of some lotion which can be obtained at ASDA of all places, called Skin Sure ( I think) which has bee proven to eradicate MRSA.

However, the point you are making is, she caught this infection because she went NHS instead of private. This is a crazy thing to say, because MRSA is just as prevalent in private hospitals as it is in NHS ! Private hospitals keep their figures down though because their patients are all basically there for elective surgery, so they are not walking in the door with a chest infection, or gastric bug in the first place. They are given the same operation as they would get in an NHS hospital, and the infection risks are equal to each other. It's a myth that private hospitals are cleaner. I have worked in one and let me tell you, don't be fooled by the plush carpets and fancy pictures on the walls. Carpets harbor bugs much, much more readily than polishable floors !!

I think you would find that the NHS system we have here is actually the envy of other countries. It is grossly underfunded, however the ethos that everybody can receive medical an nursing care regardless of their financial abilities is one that is to be commended. Yes, there are various waiting lists which also hit the headlines, but there are also many success stories happening on the wards on a daily basis which never get the media's attention.

I was privileged to look after a old guy one time when I was working in London, who had been found looking pretty close to death by a passing ambulance crew. He had been living rough since he had effectively lost his job when he turned 65. The flat he lived in was given to him as part of his job, and when he was no longer in that job, he had to leave. He was not particularly bright but also had no family to help him, or advice about what he should do about somewhere to live. He never knew that he could claim a pension off the government,because he could not read the letters he was sent. He was 74 so had been living rough for 9 years. He was infested with lice, had hair down the length of his back and was thin as a rake. He was not an alcoholic like many of them are, he was just a victim of circumstance. We gave this man the full works. Regardless of who he was, to us he was a man who was in desperate need of our help. We bathed him, De-loused him and got him a hair cut. We fed him 3 good meals a day, and spent time talking to him. This is where we finally found out his story where he found himself homeless because he was no longer working. We got a social worker involved, and when she found out that he had 9 years of pension and social assistance owing to him, she could not wait to tell him the news ! When this man left our care, he was well dressed, he was fed and healthy, he looked weather beaten but he was smiling because we restored his pride in himself. He was also more financially secure than he had been in his whole life, and was on his way to a nice place to live that the social had found him, and he would be followed up in the community by voluntary services as well as social workers to make sure he got a life back which he should never have lost in the first place.

To me, this is the NHS. This is the organization which I am proud to work in, and I just know that in any other country, this guy would be dead on the streets because the ambulance crew would drive on by without a second glance. It's mans inhumanity to man which sickens me. We have a great health service and we should be proud of it, and fight to protect it, if only for the likes of my patient.

mrs automan,
thats a great post, please belive me it's not the nurses i'am directing this post at. they do a fantastic and worthy job
it's the hierarchy the people that run the service
 

Steven

Senior Moderator
The NHS is far from perfect. The suits have said it all. Under management. Over management. Blair recently inferring it's people's fault for getting ill. Can you believe people?! The cheek :rolleyes:

On the other hand the current NHS is still ten times better than 44 million Americans not being able to go to a hospital as they don't have insurance. This last bit is just imo of course

I'm very lucky to have an NHS dentist 10 min down the road. I would not like it if I had to go private like others have had the misfortune to. Doing the same to the NHS would be a disaster. Is that too strong a word?

I got first class treatment when I broke my leg at 15. Sure the 7 hours sitting at the waiting room for each appointment was a pain, but the blameless staff always treated me with a smile

May I ask as to why none of those who voted get rid made a point, even if a quick one?
 

jenic

Well-known Member
If i lived anywhere else i would say get rid but since the new hospital in Calderdale opened we have cancelled our private health cover since it is so good, my mother has had to use the hospital and she got a private room and great service.

On the other hand my grandmother is in Bradford Royal Infirmary and it is awful, cramped rooms and just generally not a nice place to be.
 

shahedz

Distinguished Member
keep it, the NHS in essence is a great service, unfortunatley too many managers and pencil pushers creating conflicting policies to tey and justify thier jobs and this is where money is being wasted in my opinion. So more money where it should be and less in management etc,
 

Gadget Daddy

Well-known Member
i think from personal experience that they do a fantastic job and would hate to loose it, although i cannot understand the need for so many trusts. Why cant they be more "centralised" admin and get rid of all the middle and top management of the individual trusts that alone would save millions.

Mind you the documentary on the NHS
National
Homes
Scandal

Was quite worrying the way the old and infirm are being stripped of their homes to pay for care.

Pete
 

Nick_UK

Banned
They need to split the funding between treatment and research. When the NHS started in 1948, the most expensive piece of equipment you would find in any hospital was an X-ray machine.

Nowadays we have scanners of every description, which cost many millions of pounds each. The NHS also funds teaching hospitals which work in conjunction with universities which train new staff and research into diseases like AIDS.

Obviously, these activities need to continue, but the funding of them needs to be split, because it's this which makes the NHS budget so unwieldy.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
Nick_UK said:
They need to split the funding between treatment and research. When the NHS started in 1948, the most expensive piece of equipment you would find in any hospital was an X-ray machine.

Nowadays we have scanners of every description, which cost many millions of pounds each. The NHS also funds teaching hospitals which work in conjunction with universities which train new staff and research into diseases like AIDS.

Obviously, these activities need to continue, but the funding of them needs to be split, because it's this which makes the NHS budget so unwieldy.
Agreed. They also need to devise a method of making the private sector pay at least some of the costs towards teaching Doctors and nursing staff. At the moment the NHS pays for all initial training then the private sector can just pick them off as they 'leave the Uni's gates'.

It's also a fallacy that we have the 'only' NHS. Many other countries have majority state funded health systems. In fact the US is one of the few Western nations that don't.
 

Cable Monkey

Well-known Member
The NHS is one of the few Socialist post war visions that has turned out to be a real and positive advantage to all in our society. It is the envy of much of the world and is one very good reason why the average life expectancy of UK citizens is as high as it is. In so saying it is far from perfect and I very much doubt it will ever be so and I say this with the experience of my partner, mother, one sister and many friends and relatives who work/have worked within the NHS. signs, it may not be much in the way of consolation but had your friend opted for private care she may well have ended up in the same hospital, under the same surgeon. The only difference would have been waiting times. As Mrs AutomanUK quite eloquently put, Private Care is no guarantee of cleaner hospitals or indeed better medical care. A lot of the paraphinalia associated with private care such as individual rooms and your own TV are paid for and might make you feel well treated but ultimately plays no part in your recovery.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
A big keep it from me as well :thumbsup: I'm not a big believer in Public Services but I honestly consider it to be a moral and social obligation to have a free NHS. Countries which check your insurance cover before scrapping you up after an accident need to redress their priorities IMHO.

That said I am all for modifications to the system. There is a limited amount of cash - and I don't think increasing it is a good thing. Therefore I am all for a system of 'clawback' where a means tested financial recovery programme exists, i.e. someone gets injured due to their own fault and requires a major operation then, provided he is not on the lowest tax bracket, he will end up paying extra tax to cover the costs. I would also apply this to day patients who simply don't turn up for operations (a major waste of cash)!

I would also end some non-critical NHS operations: if someone wants a sex change they should pay for it and not get it free. Likewise operations that border on cosmetic surgery: I know of one person who got a free 'nose job' because a kink in their nose caused them 'mental stress'. Total waste of money!

I would also end the payouts associated with NHS Medicial Negligence. Whilst it is entirely right and proper that people who have suffered at the hands of negligent staff should have a redress this should be limited to having the staff dismissed/barred from working in the medicial field and procedures revised. Payouts of thousands of pounds in compensation just detracts from the Public benefit. In short a policy of use the NHS at your own risk. People who don't agree can always 'go private'.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
Rasczak said:
I would also end the payouts associated with NHS Medicial Negligence. Whilst it is entirely right and proper that people who have suffered at the hands of negligent staff should have a redress this should be limited to having the staff dismissed/barred from working in the medicial field and procedures revised. Payouts of thousands of pounds in compensation just detracts from the Public benefit. In short a policy of use the NHS at your own risk. People who don't agree can always 'go private'.
So if you do use the NHS, and someone does ruin your life it's just tough then eh? :rolleyes: Sorry, but no thanks. I know someone who's life has been altered dramaticaly by medical negligence and every penny of compensation they fought for is well deserved - and all gone on providing for the victim.

I am all for cutting back on the 'compensation culture' but not when the health service, public or private, has caused life altering damage.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
So if you do use the NHS, and someone does ruin your life it's just tough then eh?
With all due respect to your feelings - yes. There are no guarantees in life and I don't see why someone should undergo free treatment which, should it go terribly wrong, you then sue for significant damages. Whatever has gone wrong then the NHS continues to look after the individuals medical needs...and society will always provide disability benefit/basic level of income support to ensure some quality if life is maintained.
 

Cable Monkey

Well-known Member
overkill said:
So if you do use the NHS, and someone does ruin your life it's just tough then eh?
No you don't, but to use the US model, if their system were so much better they would not need as much litigation to obtain compensation when things go wrong. The grass may seem greener on the other side but trust me. It isn't.
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
Rasczak said:
With all due respect to your feelings - yes. There are no guarantees in life and I don't see why someone should undergo free treatment which, should it go terribly wrong, you then sue for significant damages. Whatever has gone wrong then the NHS continues to look after the individuals medical needs...and society will always provide disability benefit/basic level of income support to ensure some quality if life is maintained.
The NHS isn't free, we all pay taxation towards it's upkeep. If you really believe the latter then I suggest you look around a bit. There are carers struggling to keep their heads above water all over this country. Why the hell should they, when some jerk has made a mess of things in a situation they had no control over?

My feelings have nothing to do with it. I suggest you peddle those views to someone who has to care, 365 days a year, 24/7 for another person who's condition is purely down to a hospitals criminal negligence. Or rather I don't.......
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
The NHS isn't free, we all pay taxation towards it's upkeep.
The NHS treats everyone whether they are a tax payer or not (and rightly so IMHO). No account of whether you are a taxpayer is made when you are scraped off the pavement after an accident - ergo the services is free.
 

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