Should there be vaccine passports?

Should there be vaccine passports?

  • Yes

    Votes: 100 41.2%
  • No

    Votes: 100 41.2%
  • Yes for only for big crowd functions (like holidays + festivals)

    Votes: 43 17.7%

  • Total voters
    243

tapzilla2k

Distinguished Member
Given the vast majority of adults are happy to have the vaccine, I don't see how it do any harm. If vaccination rates were less than 20% then I would understand, but 88% of the adult population have had their first dose.

There is still a ways to go before every adult has had two doses of vaccine, which is what gives you the best protection against the delta variant. I've seen people kicking off on facebook about vaccine passports and blabbing on about having sovereignty over their bodies. I don't think many realise the delta variant is much nastier than previous strains. If it's what's going on in America is anything to go by...
 

Apocalyptic Monk

Active Member
If anyone does that on this thread then let us know.

The point is that if activities that people are used to doing, and expect to do, are contingent on taking the vaccine, then where is the choice? It becomes de facto mandatory. It is coercive at the very least, and as I posted in the other thread, if the govt cannot win the argument without resorting to such tactics then they should accept the loss.
 

inkinoo

Distinguished Member
The point is that if activities that people are used to doing, and expect to do, are contingent on taking the vaccine, then where is the choice? It becomes de facto mandatory. It is coercive at the very least, and as I posted in the other thread, if the govt cannot win the argument without resorting to such tactics then they should accept the loss.
Accepting the loss as you put it places us all in jeopardy.

The sad truth is you can’t reason anti vax nutters out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

There are many things you can’t do in society without meeting a certain level or requirement. This is no different.
 

Apocalyptic Monk

Active Member
Accepting the loss as you put it places us all in jeopardy.

The sad truth is you can’t reason anti vax nutters out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

There are many things you can’t do in society without meeting a certain level or requirement. This is no different.

A large part of the problem is people using abusive language like 'anti vax nutters' to describe young people who have decided that they don't need the vaccine, or would prefer not to have it.

While the risk posed by the vaccine is shown to be lower than that of having the disease (based on what we currently know), both risks are extremely low for the average young person so the decision to choose a statistically higher risk that is still extremely low is perfectly reasonable.
 

inkinoo

Distinguished Member
A large part of the problem is people using abusive language like 'anti vax nutters' to describe young people who have decided that they don't need the vaccine, or would prefer not to have it.

While the risk posed by the vaccine is shown to be lower than that of having the disease (based on what we currently know), both risks are extremely low for the average young person so the decision to choose a statistically higher risk that is still extremely low is perfectly reasonable.
I use the term anti vax nutters to describe anti vax nutters. The people you describe above are not anti vax nutters. I don’t agree with their position but they are different to the nutters.
 

TimCypher

Standard Member
The Times is reporting a YouGov poll gauging young people’s reaction to the concept of vaccine passports for nightclubs.

And it shows a majority supporting the plan!

Must admit, I was quite surprised by that. I know vaccine passports enjoy support amongst older people. Didn’t expect youngsters to go for it.

But there ya go!

 

jurassicmark

Well-known Member
The point is that if activities that people are used to doing, and expect to do, are contingent on taking the vaccine, then where is the choice? It becomes de facto mandatory. It is coercive at the very least, and as I posted in the other thread, if the govt cannot win the argument without resorting to such tactics then they should accept the loss.
People are used to doing lots of things but this pandemic has changed that in various ways. Perhaps the government is trying to coerce young club-goers into having the vaccine but what's the alternative? Should the government let unvaccinated people into clubs and spread Covid like wildfire among themselves and then among the general population? Like many other measures that I endorse for limiting the virus spreading and hopefully bringing this pandemic to an end, vaccine passports are perfectly reasonable in the current circumstances.

Just about everyone wants to get back to normal but there seems to be a neverending stifling of that progress in certain quarters. Some are anti-lockdown, some are anti-vaxxers, some are ant-maskers and others are against any other reasonable measures to help bring this pandemic to an end. We should all be playing our part and having the vaccine is one of the most important things so if any person can't get into a club because they can't be arsed to have the vaccine then tough sh*t. I'm not going to say that they may have a good reason for not having the vaccine as there are no good reasons, besides genuine medical concerns.
 

Lyricalis

Well-known Member
The Times is reporting a YouGov poll gauging young people’s reaction to the concept of vaccine passports for nightclubs.

And it shows a majority supporting the plan!

Must admit, I was quite surprised by that. I know vaccine passports enjoy support amongst older people. Didn’t expect youngsters to go for it.

But there ya go!

I guess if you're at an age (and appearance) where you get asked to show ID all the time anyway, then being asked for a vaccine passport too is hardly going to upset you.
 

Saul Goodman

Distinguished Member
The Times is reporting a YouGov poll gauging young people’s reaction to the concept of vaccine passports for nightclubs.

And it shows a majority supporting the plan!

Must admit, I was quite surprised by that. I know vaccine passports enjoy support amongst older people. Didn’t expect youngsters to go for it.

But there ya go!

Yougov :D they always agree with government plans shortly after announcement.
 

Apocalyptic Monk

Active Member
The Times is reporting a YouGov poll gauging young people’s reaction to the concept of vaccine passports for nightclubs.

And it shows a majority supporting the plan!

Must admit, I was quite surprised by that. I know vaccine passports enjoy support amongst older people. Didn’t expect youngsters to go for it.

But there ya go!


According to the piece, 57% support it (which is a questionable basis for the headline "Young back vaccine check for nightclubs"), but in any case, the other 43% probably include the 35% who are currently not taking up the vaccine, which makes the point made by the piece somewhat moot.
 

Apocalyptic Monk

Active Member
Labour have come out against the 'vaxports for clubbers' scheme which, along with opposition from the LDs and Tory rebels, could scupper the plans.

One of their arguments is that there is a very large number and proportion of Covid cases who are vaxxed, so it makes little sense to not allow unvaxxed whether tested or not, while allowing the vaxxed without any test. I wonder where I have seen that point being made before..

 

inkinoo

Distinguished Member
Labour have come out against the 'vaxports for clubbers' scheme which, along with opposition from the LDs and Tory rebels, could scupper the plans.

One of their arguments is that there is a very large number and proportion of Covid cases who are vaxxed, so it makes little sense to not allow unvaxxed whether tested or not, while allowing the vaxxed without any test. I wonder where I have seen that point being made before..

If testing were added as an option to gain access, would you then support the scheme?
 

worsh71

Novice Member
I'm desperate to be protected but my medical situation is complex and currently precludes me from doing so, so I am not in any way anti-vax, but I am anti-insanity.

I'm naïve,; is legalised, encouraged and now mandatory discrimination against any individual citizen a very dangerous precedent and divisive? Is it promoting/forcing a tribal situation between friend and foe alike, which we have lobbied against for years and fight to improve still? Doesn't this belongs in a much more brutal place in the past? Is it not a bit effortless to say that these are desperate times requiring totalitarian measures 'taken with a heavy heart'?

It does seem to me that anti-vaxxers may be misguided, but I respect their notion of body-sovereignty whether I agree with vaccination or not. Is mandating a vaccine which has only been granted an 'emergency' licence, which the NHS insist is a matter of personal choice, a strong ethical platform from which to exclude/criminalise others, and although I would be granted exemption for medical reasons, why would I be be deemed clean in still potentially being a carrier? Considering the actions of our cabinet ministers and aids, does the notion of 'legal' hold sway over common sense?

'Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe passed Resolution number 2361 of 2021 on 27 January 2021i, in which it was stated that:

6.1 Paragraph 7.3.1 - ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

6.2 Paragraph 7.3.2 - ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated.'

I must be missing something but hasn't slavery been legal and promoted in less-informed times? Antisemitism? Apartheid? Is this situation potentially more incendiary because it has morphed into a question of morality, self-policed?

I'm just asking questions, but regarding smallpox/ebola, would not such measures be much more proportionate ergo justifiable? As someone who's contracted and beaten a disease which kills 1 in 5, I'm no stranger to the ICU and feeling fear in a hospital bed. What are mortality rates of people in different age-groups dying of Covid rather than with?

Totally naïve on this one too; Is herd immunity reached by allowing the body to contract SARSCoV2 while fighting the infection it promotes, and in what way is being unvaccinated damaging if vaccination does nothing to stop its spread, as it seems that there is now more division between loved ones, friends, enemies, manifested tribally?
 

ostewart

Well-known Member
If testing were added as an option to gain access, would you then support the scheme?

I support showing negative test results over compulsory vaccination. It should be either - no one should be forced to have it just to go to events. Otherwise it opens up a whole other can of worms, where else will non-vaccinated people be excluded from next? Shops, travelling etc...

Excluding people just because they don't want this specific vaccine is not right.

I understand polio has been mostly eradicated due to vaccines (vaccines tend to work against polio mutations - edited post), but this is a very, very different thing.

We have already seen that the Pfizer vaccine is more effective against the Delta variant compared to the AstraZeneca vaccine - this will need to be monitored when other variants arise (Two doses of Pfizer, AstraZeneca shots effective against Delta variant: study)

We do still see hospitalisations in those vaccinated (40%) - we need more clarity in to these statistics to get a better idea of the efficacy of the current vaccines.

(post edited slightly)
 
Last edited:

The Thorne

Well-known Member
The problem is I think vaccine passports are being viewed by the government as a way they can keep nightclubs and venues open even if we slip back into level 3 but in the new level 3, vaccine passport events will be exempt but they will reimpose masks and maybe SD in other places.

it’s flawed but it certainly better than shutting them all again or making them non profitable with strict number limits.

of course I hope the above doesn’t happen but. I think we may have a mini light lockdown possibly before even the schools go back, certainly before students go back.
 

acatweasel

Distinguished Member
I'm desperate to be protected but my medical situation is complex and currently precludes me from doing so, so I am not in any way anti-vax, but I am anti-insanity.

I'm naïve,; is legalised, encouraged and now mandatory discrimination against any individual citizen a very dangerous precedent and divisive? Is it promoting/forcing a tribal situation between friend and foe alike, which we have lobbied against for years and fight to improve still? Doesn't this belongs in a much more brutal place in the past? Is it not a bit effortless to say that these are desperate times requiring totalitarian measures 'taken with a heavy heart'?

It does seem to me that anti-vaxxers may be misguided, but I respect their notion of body-sovereignty whether I agree with vaccination or not. Is mandating a vaccine which has only been granted an 'emergency' licence, which the NHS insist is a matter of personal choice, a strong ethical platform from which to exclude/criminalise others, and although I would be granted exemption for medical reasons, why would I be be deemed clean in still potentially being a carrier? Considering the actions of our cabinet ministers and aids, does the notion of 'legal' hold sway over common sense?

'Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe passed Resolution number 2361 of 2021 on 27 January 2021i, in which it was stated that:

6.1 Paragraph 7.3.1 - ensure that citizens are informed that the vaccination is NOT mandatory and that no one is politically, socially, or otherwise pressured to get themselves vaccinated, if they do not wish to do so themselves;

6.2 Paragraph 7.3.2 - ensure that no one is discriminated against for not having been vaccinated, due to possible health risks or not wanting to be vaccinated.'

I must be missing something but hasn't slavery been legal and promoted in less-informed times? Antisemitism? Apartheid? Is this situation potentially more incendiary because it has morphed into a question of morality, self-policed?

I'm just asking questions, but regarding smallpox/ebola, would not such measures be much more proportionate ergo justifiable? As someone who's contracted and beaten a disease which kills 1 in 5, I'm no stranger to the ICU and feeling fear in a hospital bed. What are mortality rates of people in different age-groups dying of Covid rather than with?

Totally naïve on this one too; Is herd immunity reached by allowing the body to contract SARSCoV2 while fighting the infection it promotes, and in what way is being unvaccinated damaging if vaccination does nothing to stop its spread, as it seems that there is now more division between loved ones, friends, enemies, manifested tribally?
Well here’s a couple of counters for you:

There’s no way vaccination will be made compulsory in the UK. Since 1898, there has been legal protection against holding people down and jabbing them. At that time they were noted as conscientious objectors would you believe.

The parliamentary assembly item isn’t law. The French in particular have been taking action against people for not vaccinating for many years. I used to live there for a while. “No jabs, no school” for your kids. They have extended some of that in the last few years, and any challenges have failed at the courts. Article 2 of the European Convention of Human Rights wins every time. That’s my “Right to Life”. Which brings with it the interesting debate.

At what point does your right to decide trump my right to survive? Unvaccinated health workers spreading the disease? Other similar cases where people do not take precautions?The best protection for those who can’t be vaccinated is that the rest of us are. Minimises the chances of meeting the nasties.

Vaccination isn‘t 100% for any disease, but it does slow spread and limit damage.

And one last minor point on herd immunity, I can‘t think of any disease that was eliminated without vaccination.

Food for thought if nothing else.
 

worsh71

Novice Member
Well here’s a couple of counters for you:

There’s no way vaccination will be made compulsory in the UK. Since 1898, there has been legal protection against holding people down and jabbing them. At that time they were noted as conscientious objectors would you believe.

The parliamentary assembly item isn’t law. The French in particular have been taking action against people for not vaccinating for many years. I used to live there for a while. “No jabs, no school” for your kids. They have extended some of that in the last few years, and any challenges have failed at the courts. Article 2 of the European Convention of Human Rights wins every time. That’s my “Right to Life”. Which brings with it the interesting debate.

At what point does your right to decide trump my right to survive? Unvaccinated health workers spreading the disease? Other similar cases where people do not take precautions?The best protection for those who can’t be vaccinated is that the rest of us are. Minimises the chances of meeting the nasties.

Vaccination isn‘t 100% for any disease, but it does slow spread and limit damage.

And one last minor point on herd immunity, I can‘t think of any disease that was eliminated without vaccination.

Food for thought if nothing else.
Hello mate. No I certainly wasn't under the impression it was law, but certainly an affirmation. Just trying to get my bearings, but how does not being vaccinated spread more disease than vaccinated, if vaccination doesn't stop spread, but just makes the host asymptomatic? confused!
 

Maeght

Well-known Member
Hello mate. No I certainly wasn't under the impression it was law, but certainly an affirmation. Just trying to get my bearings, but how does not being vaccinated spread more disease than vaccinated, if vaccination doesn't stop spread, but just makes the host asymptomatic? confused!
There is data to show that vaccinated people are less likely to pass on the virus to others.
 

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