Should Muslim Clerics be more vocal

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Logo Hater, Jul 13, 2005.

  1. Logo Hater

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    I am sure that most people on these Forums would agree that the vast majority of Muslims in this country are like most of the rest of us, just trying to live their lives in peace and harmony with everyone else and doing the best for their families.

    It is only a very small minority who wish to cause disruption by the taking of innocent lives.

    I feel that it would be helpful if some of the more prominent Muslim Clerics would be more vocal in condemning them. Preferably explaining more forcefully that they will not be going to paradise, but that the taking of life is prohibited by every religion and people who do are to be punished, not praised.

    These people claim to do this in the name of religion, however, if they are truly religious they must believe in God or Allah. Whatever they choose to call their God they must know that he disapproves of murder.

    When did the Koran get rewritten to say it's OK.
     
  2. Miyazaki

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    Maybe if they did, they would become a target for other extremists such as the BNP and their members.

    Why should they condemn the terrorists further than any other sector of our community? In doing so, it could appear to some that they felt some degree of guilt through association.
     
  3. Logo Hater

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    I don't see why they should become targets for the BNP any more than they already are.

    Do we feel responsible by association when young thugs attack innocent victims, I certainly don't. I don't see why they would either.

    The perpetrators however may listen to them, when they would certainly not feel any obligation to listen to us.
     
  4. Mep

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    i think its a perfectly valid point.....who better to counter the brainwashing they must get with a true interpretation of the Koran.....
     
  5. hornydragon

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    unfortunately its only the extremists of any religious incarnation that are deemed news worthy you can preach good ethics and a life of peace and harmony 30 years but only make the news for being Gay, abusing kids, having a sex change, etc etc etc the teachings of al major religions run on very simialr principles, rules for a good life and sensible ideas, protecting society yet still they are the cause of more killings and murders and the legitimisation of violence the owrld over, i persoanally think every Mosque in britain should open its dorrs and invite everyone in that way we can see that a mosque, is no more a breeding ground top terrorism than a PUB, snooker hall or synagog. Young men are often at the centre of this problems be it tribal war in africa or Gang culture in the bronx, but there is always and older more manipulative force directing and coaching them..................
     
  6. John

    John
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    Well , its only in the last 24 - 36 hours that its has been confirmed that it was Islamic Terrorists , and , they have come out and condemed the attack , How many times do they have to repeat themselves ? The same sound bites are repeated over and over again on every news channel / bulletin .
    It is after all , only a few "bad apples" that bring a bad name to Muslims / Islam
    JS
     
  7. overkill

    overkill
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    Exactly. They've condemned these attacks since it was revealed that Muslim extremists might be involved.
     
  8. Mep

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    hopefully no sane person disputes that.
     
  9. Logo Hater

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    I appreciate that if our Clerics were to condemn the perpetrators of violence from within the ranks of mainstream protestants, it would fall on very deaf ears. We protestants do not usually live our lives by the edicts of our Bible.

    Muslims are somewhat different, they do try to live their lives by the teachings of their religious leaders, and the Koran, it is very important to them, therefore they should be in a better position to influence the followers of that religion.
     
  10. Squiffy

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    The Koran has never been re-written. THAT is the problem!

    They've never had to go through a reformation. The Koran is the word of God and cannot be changed.

    Simply criticising Islam is enough to warrant a Fatwa. Under those circumstances, how can the religion ever evolve to deal with the modern world?

    So even though (like any other book written by a committee of men) it contains inconsistencies, it is also inviolate. Some sections will condemn murder, others will condone it.

    And I have to say, Islam itself was born out of war. Mohammed was a great and ruthless war leader who used the device of religion to attract and motivate his followers.
     
  11. Logo Hater

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    I have always believed though that when the IRA were carrying out their bombing campaign on the mainland, although it was claimed to be carried out in the name of religion. In fact it was just an excuse for people of violence to kill and maim because that's what they wanted to do.

    Religion didn't really have a lot to do with it.
     
  12. chard

    chard
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    Guys, sorry but apparently I am to be banned from the forum, one particular poster has been stirring this up for some time.

    If this is the last post - best regards and someone keep the 'Right' flag flying.....it was fun. :)
     
  13. Ed Selley

    Ed Selley
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    Before I write anything I need to stress that I'm not a muslim and not a very keen Christian either.

    As I see it, every religion can be interpreted in such a way as to the believers can justify violence. Islam is no better or worse in this respect. Whilst a normal cleric can (and usually does) condemn acts of violence- and genuinely believe what he is saying, to the people that have already been converted to a more radical path, the effect must surely be similar to watching those who have already "sold out." The condemnation serves only to strengthen this belief.
    If we compare in the eyes of the impressionable and young, the words of the cleric of my local mosque for example (who is an amiable man of about 55 who participates in the local fete, usually alongside his C of E counterpart) with a firebrand who may have spent some time at one of these semi legendary training camps, those that are sensitive and open to change are inevitably going to be drawn towards the words of action. The same thing can be seen in the swelling congregations of the "super churches" of the midwestern US who are drawing huge amounts of people off more conventional churches.
    I'm not sure that I really have a yes/no answer to the thread. I guess what I am trying to say is that some people will always be drawn to the extreme end of any belief and I do not believe that there is much that the mainstream of religions can do about it. I suspect that individual treatment of the worst offenders (with the acceptance that this will often strengthen their cause initially) will probably be the best course of action. I would encourage this to be done in a secular fashion.
     
  14. overkill

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    Thank you Tons!

    Again, spot on.

    Sadly I have to report our nearest Muslim centre was set on fire this week. Luckily the damage was minimal. These morons are just playing into the terrorists hands, as division is what they want. It also makes those more susceptible to the extremists views even more likely to join the them.

    The BNP and other racist groups however, are clearly trying to exploit this situation to further their own twisted agenda.......
     
  15. mrtbag

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    I am not aware of any part of the Koran that condones murder. Anybody that says it's there, is twisting and misinterpreting the part they are quoting.
     
  16. PoochJD

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    Morning,

    I should just pre-warn people, that my views expressed herein, are only of my own thoughts and feelings, and you may feel they are extremely contentious! Proceed at your own peril!




    I personally believe that all religion is dangerous! :eek: What bothers me, is not the fact that people choose to side with one faith over another, or they believe that their religion is more accurate than another one, but that these people believe in their chosen religion period, and then accuse the fundamentalists of having been brain-washed! Isn't that kind of hypocritical?!

    Also, religious people believe in God, Buddha, Jehova, Mohammed or whoever else, yet they can't see how outdated their religion is, and refuse to move with the times.

    The Bible, the Koran, and all the other religious tomes of the world, each have their own teachings, yet they are so out-of-touch with the modern and real world in which we all live in.

    I'm certain I'm liable to be slated for my views, but any religion that demands that women must be clothed in black gowns and veils, except for a tiny gap for them to see through, is on very shaky ground already! :lesson: Religion helps breed intolerance. Intolerance breeds bigotry. Bigotry breeds hate. Hate fuels religion. And so, the circle continues ever onward!

    Any why is it, you don't get Christian suicide bombers, Jewish suicide bombers, or any other form of religious suicide bombers... only Islamic ones?! I think it is religion that is the cause of so many problems in society, and not the "unbelievers" or non-religious types!

    I think the whole Muslim religion needs to radically rethink what and who it wants to be! It's one thing to say that "Oh, I'm a follower of Islam, and a real follower condemns the bombings in London", but the people that did the bombings did it, in the name of the very religion you follow and devote your life too! Sorry, but that's :censored:-up in my opinion!


    Pooch
    (Happy to be a non-believer!)

    P.S> I hope everyone will do their best to observe today's 2-minute silence, starting at Midday, BST! For all those who lost their lives in London, we will never forget you! :(
     
  17. Nick_UK

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    That is total rubbish ! There have been just as many protestant extremists as those from Islam. What about all the attrocities surrounding Northern Ireland ? They weren't all Catholics, you know. It takes two to tango.

    I agree that the majority of Muslims take their religion a lot more seriously than the majority of Christians, but that doesn't make them any more prone to extremism.

    I do agree with the previous poster. Religion should be banned from public places. People should be free to practice their religion in their homes or designated places of worship, but mention of religion outside of this should be banned.
     
  18. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    Are you so young that you don't remember the IRA & the protestants ?

    Many of those died for their beliefs.

    They weren't Muslims, were they ?
     
  19. Mep

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    but they still didn't use suicide bombers did they, as fanatical as both sides undoubtedly were /are
     
  20. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
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    Christians have been known to use suicide tactics in the past, as this web site suggests.

    However, many prisoners in the Maze prison committed suicide for their beliefs.
     
  21. Nobber22

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    Sure they did, but they didn't

    A) take a number of innocent civilians with them

    B) think they were going to the glory of heaven, with 70 virgins waiting for them, etc :rolleyes:

    IRA prisoners died on hunger strikes, but these don't effect innocent lives. They were also not (mind) controlled by powerful, influencial leaders like today's extremists are.
     
  22. General Skanky

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    A very tricky topic this one, and one I do my best to avoid as it's so inflammatory.

    I can only think that the 'implementation' of Islam by the 'bad element' is the root problem.

    I cast my mind back to when Salman Rushdie became target No. 1 because of his book.

    The leaders then weren't too keen on any form of criticism of their Islamic faith. They whipped up a storm to have him killed. How inhuman is that?

    Surely modern day muslims with any form of reason would have looked at it in a totally different way?

    No definitive point to make, just my views, until corrected. :rolleyes:
     
  23. overkill

    overkill
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    I quite agree. However, I would hope that no-one would see Iran as a "moderate" example of Islam. Just as the US is hardly an example of moderate christianity.

    There:-

    A) The KKK have, and still do murder people in the name of 'God'.
    B) At various times, and increasingly so again, have banned the teaching of evolution.
    C) As a nation they claim to be acting on behalf of God. Ie the invasion of Iraq etc.
    D) The US is a hive of extreme Christian groups many of whom sponsor the current regime, and expect therefore, a say in policy (see 'teaching' above).
    E) As such, although not as directly as Iran, the US has a powerful 'Christian voice' guiding policies that are directly impacting on the rest of the World.

    No, the US does not have sucide bombers, but they do have soldiers quite prepared to do 'whatever it takes', fired up by their education in the 'bible belt'. As we've seen (a new report has condemned the activities at guatanamo bay) 'whatever it takes' is not quite what a true Christian would hopefully accept.

    As before this has nothing to do with religion. The European terror groups of the 70's had nothing to with religion but 'fought' in the same way and were equally brainwashed.

    There are extremes on all sides, in all areas of the World.
     
  24. Nick_UK

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    Yes, well said ! America is becoming more and more fanatic in its religious fervour.

    That website I mentioned earlier - the last few sentences were the most telling.....

    "So, in my opinion, it is useless to concentrate solely on the ideological differences between Islamists and the western democracies when really the underlying problem is one of ingrained poverty and denial to many muslims of any real benefits of modern economies.

    The sooner the poor of the Muslim nations are treated fairly by the economic giants of the G8 the sooner the fertile breeding grounds of self murder will become fallow.

    In the immortal words of Bob Dylan,

    "When you ain't got nothin' you got nothin' to lose" "


    When human life is cheap, you get people willing to sacrifice it.
     
  25. PoochJD

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    Hi,

    I understand what both Nick and others say about "other" suicide bombers, but when was the last time you heard or read about one of these "other" suicide-bombers taking innocent lives? I can't! It's always Islamic suicide-bombers - always! I know that's a potentially dangerous comment to make, but it's true.

    (Warning - a rant coming up! :clap: )


    For some reason, the Islamic faith seems to attract a lot of people who are willing to do absolutely anything to get people to follow them, or convert to their religion, and I don't understand how anyone could be that nieve or stupid? Is the Islamic religion so all-powerful?!

    And why does their faith divide the people so much - into those who follow it faithfully, but within the realms of the real world, and the other, smaller group, who take it to extremes that it involves killing people?! :confused:

    This is why I feel that religion, in any form, is dangerous! :lesson:

    There is no such thing as God, Allah, Jehovah or any other immortal and omniscent being! No almighty deity, who gave himself up for everyone else!

    There isn't a Heaven, nor a Hell! You are not an evil person, if you do bad things. (Though you may certainly be pretty :censored:-up! :D !) The world was not created in six days, and we did not stem from a bloody rib! Allah, God and all the other deity's do not love you more, or any less, than anyone else! In all honesty, if they existed in the first place, they probably couldn't give a rat's ass about you! Jesus didn't weep on the Cross! He didn't die and then return to save mankind!

    In fact, the Koan, the Bible, the Torah, and the Satanists Bible are all complete rubbish!! They are full of hypocritical lies, inconsequential guff, and are probably mostly fiction!

    Religion = Control

    Human beings shouldn't be controlled by anything other than simple law! Right and wrong. Good and bad! Religion tries to make you appear better than others, because it says so in your particular faith's book! It tries to say that by following what the book says, you will be loved and cherished and be seen as a good, wholesome person!

    Utter B******s!

    You are, whoever you choose to be! No one made you, in the form of themselves, okay! You were created through two people having sex, and being born - or possibly via a test-tube, but that's another issue altogether! ;)

    Being baptised, or christened, or being circumcised will not make you any better or worse a human being! So please, can someone explain to me, why religion is so important, when it's based on such complete bull****?!

    What is the point of committing suicide, in the name of religion?! You are just as likely to go to Heaven, if you walked into the high street with a bomb, and said: "Praise be, to the almighty Garfield! He is the cat, who will save mankind! Death to all orange-coloured, fat-cat disbelievers!"

    I know this is a rant, and I'll probably get shot for saying all of this, but a suicide-bomber must be the dumbest person in the world! So why does Islam produce so many of this idiots?!

    Would the world not be a better place, if religion wasn't in existance?! Would society not be more loving and tolerant, if we just accepted one another as people, rather than as people who subscribe to a specific set of (religious) rules? If you're going to commit suicide, at least make it have some kind of reasonable and worthwhile cause. Blow yourself up, in the name of curing cancer! Commit suicide, for the sake of saving the planet! But not in the name of religion, and don't involve other, innocent people in your intentions!

    The vast majority of people don't care about your crummy religious beliefs! We don't give a :censored: why your deity is better than another! All we care about, is making society a better place to live in... for everyone, regardless of their differences. But when d***-wads like the four suicide-bombers of London, blow themselves up, in the name of Islam, I laugh at their pitiful religion, and hate them, for their selfish murdering of innocent bystanders.


    (Rant over with - honest!)

    If it weren't for religion, society might be a much better place! I don't actually hate anyone who is religious - regardless of what that religion is. I simply question why you have to believe in something, that is so fanciful, and causes so much tension in the world.

    I apologise sincerely if I have caused offence. This is not my aim or intention. I am solely trying to understand why innocent people should die, in the name of something like religion, when it isn't necessary; and when that religion is actually a less-than-worthwhile cause.


    Pooch
    (Getting into his Biohazard suit, in case he gets flamed! :eek: )
     
  26. Logo Hater

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    Nick, also taken from the linked site.

    Muslims always condemned suicide with the utmost severity, for one of the cardinal teachings of Mohammed was that man must submit himself at all times to the will of Allah and not take matters into his own hands. .

    However, this is not the whole story, for Islamists also considered suicide as not just legitimate but praiseworthy when undertaken for reasons of jihad (sacred war). Going into war knowing with certainty that one will die, they argued, was not suicide but martyrdom, a much-praised form of self-sacrifice and a way to the hearts of the Houris in paradise .


    The rest of it is reporting Christian suicides, the difference being that they were not commited to murder people from other religions.

    There is a mention of Japanese kamikazie pilots, that again was different, they had declared war, and were acting against military personel, not civilians.

    The main point of what I was trying to say earlier is that because of the nature of their religion, Muslim youths are more likely to be influenced by their Religious leaders than Christians are. So if they were to pronounce loudly and clearly that it is not Paradise that awaits suicide bombers and that suicide is wrong, that may reverse some of the brain washing that appears to be behind these campaigns. Even if it only stops some, that is surely worth working towards.
     
  27. Logo Hater

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    Pooch,

    How can you be so certain that there is no God (I'll use the term God, because it's quick to type and we all know what is meant by the word)

    I honestly believe that it is of no consequence which religion a person is supposed to be a member of, the reality is that although they all have different names for this Superior being. All of them are the same Deity/Person.

    I am not what would be termed a religious person, I never go to a place of worship other than for Funerals and Weddings. However I do believe that there is a God somewhere. I personally have experienced things which have convinced me that there is something else after the life on this planet.

    Throughout every Continent on the Planet, even before intercontinental travel was possible, every tribe, every group had a belief in a creator. Or so the evidence would suggest. Without contact between these groups, why would they all form the same opinion about where they came from, unless they knew something which you appear to want to deny.
     
  28. Mep

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    but they also had sun gods, wind gods, rain gods....basically a god to explain everything they couldn't explain or understand.......you can't say their isn't a God with any more accuracy than you can say there is one.........but with our understanding of science and nature you have to say it's pretty unlikely that "a creator" exists. But each to their own.
     
  29. Ian J

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    I think that you are generalising far too much as for every fundamentalist lunatic there are billions of ordinary Muslims that respect life and fellow people in the same way that Christians, Jews and Atheists do and the vast majority of Mulsims are more interested in what's for dinner, whether or not they will pull at the weekend and what a boring day they had at work than anything else.

    It isn't difficult to wind up impressionable young people and many will recall a certain Austrian having some success doing exactly the same thing but on a much larger scale some 60 years ago and they were certainly not Muslims that he persuaded should embark upon the mass slaughter of his fellow man.
     
  30. overkill

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    I think 'generalise' doesn't really do it justice Ian. But you're absolutely right. However, this has been made clear many times on here, and not least by the Muslims themsleves, yet people seem disinterested.

    He also claimed to be acting in 'Gods name', and every German soldier had 'Gott mit uns' on their belt. They were doing 'Gods work' by killing off the 'lesser races'. I don't think...........

    Mans capacity to act in appalying ways inspired by 'God' has been amply displayed by all creeds and colours for over a thousand years. It's not going to get any better anytime soon.
     

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