Should I have a power conditioner

Filipedine

Active Member
Hi All,

This probably is again one of does difficult subject, but I am trying to set my mind on power conditioners, like the KECES BP-2400, and wether or not I should buy one. On one hand I read people saying you should not use them because you lose dynamic, on the other I can still see people using them when doing audio reviews.

Does anyone have any experience with power conditioners and if, at the current time they are a good investment?

Thanks

Filipe
 

mushii

Distinguished Member
Do you have really dirty power to your premises? Does it fluctuate dramatically? If the answer to these two questions is NO then ask why you would want / need a power conditioner?
 

larkone

Member
If you are UK based then it is highly unlikely that your power supply requires a power conditioner unless you live somewhere very remote with a flaky supply.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Power conditioners, especially in the UK, is one of the myths put forward by the audio industry in order to shift units. There is simply no need in UK properties unless, as has been pointed out, that you live in a remote rural area. If you live in a city or urban area fluctuation in your home could be more to do with the age of the wiring in the property and that should be addressed.
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
It depends on what you mean by "Power Conditioner"? That can mean a variety of things.

Do you want noise filtering?

Does that mean Transient Suppression?

Does it mean Line Voltage Regulation?

Do you want Ride-Through? That is, do you want the power to the device to stay on when the house power goes off?


The device you suggested cost US$1400 or €1700.

Keces Audio - USA - Power Supply

Keces Audio | BP2400 Balanced Isolation Power Conditioner - Keces Audio - Brands

Transcient Suppression and Noise Filtering are good options. Line Regulation general is not a problem unless you have very old and generally terrible power. This usually happens in areas with old wiring, or at the farthest end of a Power Transmission Line.

So, what is it you want done? What is it you actually need? And what does the device you are looking at do relative to your needs?

When need match device, then you have what you need, and it is then just a matter of how much you are willing to pay.

Steve/bluewizard
 

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
I agree with Steve. I'm under the impression that may people tend to use various terms interchangeably - e.g. conditioning, D-C offset elimination, filtering, regeneration, etc. In regard to noise filtering, the other day I came across a relatively cheap little device called a 'noise sniffer' (made by Belkin, selling for about £20, but sold out it seems). You plug it into the mains and if there is any 'noise' on the line then it is audible from the speaker of the 'sniffer' - then you can swap to different sockets, plug various electric appliances, etc. to see what's causing the 'noise'.
 

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
But an AC ReGenerator is still susceptible to digital noise on the mains, isn't it, along with RF and wireless noise? A filter on the other hand is based on the philosophy that the UK mains supply is okay, and it's noisy appliances plugged into the mains that are the problem.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
I’m not certain of this, but so far as I can tell without the service manual, all of the mains crud that there may or may not be on the input side is excluded from the output on the regenerator.

So assuming you have nothing other than your hifi plugged into it then any noise flung backwards can only come from the hifi equipment.

And as that is, or should be, minimal indeed, mains noise cannot be a problem.

However, as I said, I’m not certain so I’ve sent them a request for more info on that possible problem.

I’ve had mine for about five years and it’s worked flawlessly since day one.
 

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
Thanks Paul.

I'm not at all sure either - I'm just going on what I've tried to piece together from bits I've heard and read here and there, based on a bit of logic and intuition rather than any meaningful understanding of electricity. What I do know for sure is that Mark Grant used to sell your regenerator and when I enquired about purchasing one he recommended me a filter instead. Having said that, I also seem to recall reading somewhere that your unit isn't very popular with many dealers because the RRP doesn't offer them a very generous mark up from the manufacturer's cost - in other words, relatively good value for money to the end customer.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
That would be my guess. The PowerInspired stuff is sold direct.

And some of the more ‘optimistic’ conditioners cost thousands of pounds for a fistful of components costing a couple of fivers.
 

High Fidelity

Active Member
Hi All,

This probably is again one of does difficult subject, but I am trying to set my mind on power conditioners, like the KECES BP-2400, and wether or not I should buy one. On one hand I read people saying you should not use them because you lose dynamic, on the other I can still see people using them when doing audio reviews.

Does anyone have any experience with power conditioners and if, at the current time they are a good investment?

Thanks

Filipe
I have found so-called power conditioners to be a total rip-off ,destroy SQ.
 

Abacus

Banned
A connector strip with surge suppression is all you need, (It stops any pops and cracks if you have older white goods) just make sure it is of decent quality as very cheap ones usually become loose after a time.

If you do need to get clean energy then use a quality mains regenerator, (Expensive) but for most people they are complete overkill.

Don’t be taken in by Hi-Fi gobbledegook which some manufactures use to sell their products as it is usually complete nonsense.

A regenerator isolates the input from the output and adds power regulation to make sure the output is as clean as it can be. (NOTE: You must make sure that the regenerator has enough power for your needs (Better to have more than not enough) or you are defeating the object)

Bill
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
An Uninterruptible Power Supply doesn't have to cost a fortune, and these usually have Surge Suppression and Noise Filtering -

APC Backup UPS ES - 700VA (watts more or less) Uninterruptible Power Supply - £82 -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/APC-Back-UPS-BE700G-UK-Uninterruptible-protected/dp/B002RXED6A/

These are primarily made for computers, so if the power goes out, you have time to shutdown without losing Data. But they can be used for AV purposes. How big it needs to be depends on how much power you system draws. But, like a computer, if the power goes out, it can give you time to shut equipment down in an orderly fashion. It also provides (I think) power grid isolation.

Though of course, there are models that have much more power reserve, but they cost more money.

Steve/bluewizard
 

dazed&confused

Well-known Member
An Uninterruptible Power Supply doesn't have to cost a fortune, and these usually have Surge Suppression and Noise Filtering -

APC Backup UPS ES - 700VA (watts more or less) Uninterruptible Power Supply - £82 -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/APC-Back-UPS-BE700G-UK-Uninterruptible-protected/dp/B002RXED6A/

These are primarily made for computers, so if the power goes out, you have time to shutdown without losing Data. But they can be used for AV purposes. How big it needs to be depends on how much power you system draws. But, like a computer, if the power goes out, it can give you time to shut equipment down in an orderly fashion. It also provides (I think) power grid isolation.

Though of course, there are models that have much more power reserve, but they cost more money.

Steve/bluewizard

Hi Steve

Shouldn't any decent hifi component be designed in such a way that it isn't going to be harmed if there's a power cut? Where I live the power got cut one evening in the summer when all of my AV was turned on and nothing got harmed.
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
Hi Steve

Shouldn't any decent hifi component be designed in such a way that it isn't going to be harmed if there's a power cut? Where I live the power got cut one evening in the summer when all of my AV was turned on and nothing got harmed.

Generally correct, but not necessarily always true. But I concede most often true.

To some extent it depends on the complexity of the system.

But to the subject, Uninteruptable Power Supplies (UPS) are regulated so you get a rock solid unwavering line voltage. No brown outs or low voltage situation. So they have that advantage.

There are other way of regulating the line voltage. Ferro-Resonant Transformers will hold line voltage on the output even with fluctuation of about ±20% on the input, but they tend to operate best when operating at about 80% of full power.

So the UPS does provide feature beyond simple Ride-Through.

Steve/bluewizard
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Hi Steve

Shouldn't any decent hifi component be designed in such a way that it isn't going to be harmed if there's a power cut? Where I live the power got cut one evening in the summer when all of my AV was turned on and nothing got harmed.
There are so many safety features built into the main supply that power surges are very few and far between. If I get a powercut I do switch off all my kit until it comes back on. In the middle of the night when I dreaming of Wales winning the World Cup later this year and there is a power cut then almost all my kit is in standby and in that case I've never encountered a problem. The only time you know there's been a night time powercut is that the cooker's clock needs resetting.

I've got a lot of stuff running through the night with my wife's aquarium plus the AV kit on standby.
 

dannnielll

Well-known Member
Generally correct, but not necessarily always true. But I concede most often true.

To some extent it depends on the complexity of the system.

But to the subject, Uninteruptable Power Supplies (UPS) are regulated so you get a rock solid unwavering line voltage. No brown outs or low voltage situation. So they have that advantage.

There are other way of regulating the line voltage. Ferro-Resonant Transformers will hold line voltage on the output even with fluctuation of about ±20% on the input, but they tend to operate best when operating at about 80% of full power.

So the UPS does provide feature beyond simple Ride-Through.

Steve/bluewizard
The Ferroresonant transformer, has the additional benefit that it will also suppress transient pops and clicks .The company I worked with would have had them installed in hospital grade medical diagnostic machines,where material cost, and weight was irrelevant.
I would reiterate my previous comments that the domestic electrical supply in Western Europe is such that this type of kit is redundant. If you live next dior to an arc welder, or a steelworks, or a shoddy lift in a block of flats maybe
 

dannnielll

Well-known Member
There are so many safety features built into the main supply that power surges are very few and far between. If I get a powercut I do switch off all my kit until it comes back on. In the middle of the night when I dreaming of Wales winning the World Cup later this year and there is a power cut then almost all my kit is in standby and in that case I've never encountered a problem. The only time you know there's been a night time powercut is that the cooker's clock needs resetting.

I've got a lot of stuff running through the night with my wife's aquarium plus the AV kit on standby.
... That dream, (or perhaps from my perspective ,nightmare), came a lot closer by 18:30 last night.
 

BlueWizard

Distinguished Member
... In the middle of the night when I dreaming of Wales winning the World Cup later this year and there is a power cut then almost all my kit is in standby and in that case I've never encountered a problem. ...

I live in an area where the power drops out all the time. And I have never had a problem. However, though I'm dragging this from my very poor memory, there was a guy on the forum who had had two complete disasters due to Power Line Lightning Strikes. Just because it doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it is impossible for that to happen.

Though I suspect the person in question had other problems. Perhaps he was deep in the country with low voltage or other problems. Perhaps on a very old section of the Grid. Perhaps he had poor house wiring. Or other unspecified problems.

Myself I just use common filtering and surge suppression Power Strips, and in my lifetime I have never had a problem. But ...that said... there are people who do have Power Line Problems.

Steve/bluewizard
 

gibbsy

Moderator
I live in an area where the power drops out all the time. And I have never had a problem. However, though I'm dragging this from my very poor memory, there was a guy on the forum who had had two complete disasters due to Power Line Lightning Strikes. Just because it doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it is impossible for that to happen.

Though I suspect the person in question had other problems. Perhaps he was deep in the country with low voltage or other problems. Perhaps on a very old section of the Grid. Perhaps he had poor house wiring. Or other unspecified problems.

Myself I just use common filtering and surge suppression Power Strips, and in my lifetime I have never had a problem. But ...that said... there are people who do have Power Line Problems.

Steve/bluewizard
I remember the double lightning strike. I have been to one fire that was caused by a mains power overload which set fire to the first floor of an old terraced house. It was the only house in the street to be affected as all the others had up to date wiring and RCD boards. So yes it does and can happen.

All my kit and the aquarium filters and heaters are plugged into standard surge protectors. Most power problems, certainly in domestic properties, are caused by faulty equipment or wiring within the property and upon my retirement were the third biggest cause of domestic fires.

I don't anything will defend your equipment or property against a lightning strike.
 

larkone

Member
I don't anything will defend your equipment or property against a lightning strike.

Certainly not the tiny devices fitted to provide surge protection in most power strips.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I think power conditioners are a waste of money.

Take a look at this new amplifier with a S/N ratio of 130db. This is unprecedented and it needs no add on widgets to achieve it, its simply a better design than traditional amplifiers can achieve.

Widescreen Review Webzine | News | Lyngdorf To Launch The New MXA-8400 Amplifier At ISE 2019

If you want to hear stereo and surround systems that are totally silent from regular mains supply, you are welcome to visit.
 

Filipedine

Active Member
Hi All,

I can understand why one would need one of this devices, but still not shore if I need one.

In my case the wall power seems to be very stable. However this "seems to be", is just an empiric one or a gut feeling, based on the fact that the light does not go down often, and lights don't blink, and probably it is not the right approach to know if I need one or not.

I may be wrong on this, but based on what i have read and from a Sound perspective (so no experience what so ever), power conditioners, power regenerators, AC filters, and so on... will have some impact to the delivery of power to the HiFi gear, with the potencial to cause/or not changes the sound that the gear produces.

In my case it is clear that I do not know if I need any type of gear until I do some real measurements, and even after doing so, that would only give me some indication of how the energy behaved during that period.

Just out of curiosity, between power conditioner a power regulator, which one is better?

Thanks in avance

Filipe
 

larkone

Member
Just out of curiosity, between power conditioner a power regulator, which one is better?

Thanks in avance

Filipe

Depends on the problem you are trying to solve. If you do not have a problem then neither is better.
 

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