Shootout......SACD v DVD-A

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by uncle eric, May 16, 2002.

  1. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I didn't know of any title that was available in both the SACD and DVD-A formats. That is until Nic Rhodes kindly sent me two discs so as to enable me to compare the same title on both formats. Thanks Nic

    "Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture" may not be for everyone, but I think this is truly the classic of classic's.
    Luckily, I know this title well (I have the two channel version) and concentrated on my favourite pieces for familiarity reasons.

    Up first the Multi Channel SACD. The magnificent opening track is of course the fifteen minute 1812 overture itself. This highly complicated, dense and dynamic piece has everything imaginable. Horns, strings, a childrens choir and even artilery bombard your brain from all sides. From the subtle opening to the dynamic finale, the whole track is recorded superbly with a beguiling smoothness thats hard to describe. Its a little like somebody sweet talking you before they punch your lights out.

    Capriccio Italien is another track that comes over with great aplomb. Horns first followed by strings is the order of the day here and both come across very cleanly with plenty of air (particularly with strings) seperating the instrumnets.

    Lastly on SACD and often one of my demo tracks when testing new gear is the opening of 'The Cossack dance'. If you've not heard this before I urge you to buy it. The opening few minutes of this track is so complex and intricate that it never fails to catch out all but the best equipment around. Amazingly, SACD seems to breathe new life into this, my favourite track of 1812.
    To summarize this SACD version in three words is easy. Smooth, lucid and polite.

    Now, DVD-A. Many folks believe SACD 'should' sound better. I'm one of those that has to see it (or hear it) to believe it. I have no loyalty to either camp.

    The initial surprise was that the DVD-A (at the same reference level) was around 2-3 db's louder!!!!
    In order to be subjective and not catch Placbo or DTS sickness (its louder so must be better), I turned output down to the same level as the SACD disc.

    Now to listen. I went backwards here and played the 'Cossack dance' first.
    What a difference!!! Its not a small difference either.
    There is an old quote by many a 'Golden Ear' reviewer "Its as if a veil has been taken away".
    If ever this quote was apt, its right here. Its as if somebody flicked the sparkle switch on.
    High frequencies suddenly became very refined rather than smoothed out as they were before. What amazed me most was the way the DVD-A version unravelled the fine intricacy of this piece. It was nothing short of astonishing. Something else this track made obvious, was that the slightly harsh mid-range that the SACD had was gone.

    The 1812 overture itself was an entirely different presentation. The thundering dynamics toward the end had taken on a much larger scale which begged emotion from the listener. Thickness in the bass area's had been replaced by tight and fast punch that was 'bigger' sounding than the SACD. In short, the dynamic range had suddenly become huge.

    'Capriccio Itanlien' was now full of attack while at the same time achieving a new subtlety during quieter passages due to new found clarity.

    To sum up. 1812 overture SACD (by Telarc) was indeed smooth, natural sounding and pleasing to the ear. Strangely enough (and this might not make sense) I'd say of the two, the SACD version is an easier listen.

    The DVD-A version is just awsome. It literally had me on the edge of my seat. I found myself grinning from ear to ear while listening to the highly complex and articulate "The cossack dance". It was like pulling the petals away from a delicate flower piece by piece. In a word, Vivid. Absolutley sensational.

    Nic, please PM/email me your address so I can get these back to you. Thanks for sending them. I enjoyed them immensely.

    Eric
     
  2. neilneil

    neilneil
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2002
    Messages:
    720
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Ratings:
    +39
    Ah, very interesting. thankyou to you both for enabeling us to get an unbiased review of both formats. One piece of information is missing however, were the disks two codeings (sacd and dvda) of the same performance? Wouldn't two different performances of the same score of music sound different?

    -Neil
     
  3. Matt F

    Matt F
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    900
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Chester, UK
    Ratings:
    +4
    Very interesting post Uncle E and not the result I was expecting.

    A couple of points though:

    1. Could the difference be down to the two discs being produced/mixed/mastered etc. by different people/companies?

    2. Does the player you used (Pioneer 747-A, I presume) happen to play DVD-As better than it plays SACDs?

    I guess your post also proves another point and that is that the vast majority of titles are available on either DVD-A or SACD, not both and, therefore, if you want to enjoy high quality multi channel music then you have to be able to play both formats which, given that many will not want two separate players, is excellent news for Pioneer (for now).

    By the way, how do you rate the 747-A?

    Matt.
     
  4. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,152
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,276
    Eric

    Thanks for the shoot out very interesting results. If I can put some context behind why I asked Eric for his opinions on this disc.

    I went and did an extensive campaign of listening to DVD A and SACD players. Some of this was done with this 1812 music and some with other discs. The Pioneer 747 player Eric used was included in this.

    What I heard from the 747, I have already posted about, but basically I thought it okay with CDs, poor (for SACD) on SACD and very good DVD / DVD A performance. It is wonderfully convenient however.

    However when I listened to other SACD I found them a real mixed bag of performance. I posted a less than flattering review of most of the players on the market. I bought a Sony 770 but I am far from happy with it’s performance. This was something I did know beforehand but it suited my needs as I didn’t want to spend a fortune at this stage.

    I did like many of the DVD Audio players I heard however. I have not bought one because my beloved Tag will be getting a DVD A update (with digital interface) in the next year. However what I heard was at odds with what many were telling me, that SACD was much better. Technically it is interesting but 20 bit and new digital technology (poorly understood). DVD is PCM based, well understood digital technology, and basic 24 bit resolution. (MLP is just another decoding option like DD / DTS).

    Well I have NOT found SACD the better sounding option. It is however the new system that has the might of Sony behind it. I thought I would ask most of our most respected ‘elders’ (no offence Eric!) to post his thoughts. I was beginning to think I had missed the plot on this one. I think I have a reasonable eye / ear for picking good kit but I was struggling to see people were over the moon with SACD. As I have stated repeatedly in the past, both my DVD player and CD player better these SACD players using hybrid discs. Digital sound quality isn’t about specs but how it is engineered.

    For all intents, these two discs are as close as you are going to get to do a SACD / DVD A shoot out.
     
  5. dave48

    dave48
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2002
    Messages:
    279
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Germany
    Ratings:
    +6
    Chaps,

    can I just check whether you are referring to the Telarc Tchaikovsky 1812 with Erich Kunzel conducting the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra?

    A mate of mine got this CD (back in the very very early 1980's) as a demo disk for his CD player (a Phillips CD-1). He gave me the disk about 15 years ago - he didn't want it any more for some reason.

    It would be fascinating to compare the SACD version with the CD - where can you get this from?

    The CD was famous for the "digital cannons" - completely mad, I nearly destroyed my first hifi loudspeakers with those damn cannons.

    Dave48
     
  6. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Been busy all day.

    Neil,
    Same performance, recording engineers and mixing techs.

    Dave,
    The cold sweat was running down my forehead when the "digital cannons" came into play.

    Matt,
    1) See above.

    2) Note below.

    Regarding my opinion as to the worth of the Pioneer,

    CD) For the princely sum of two to three hundred pounds you can buy a better sounding CD player. (6 out of 10)

    SACD) Competent, the lower priced SACD players out there match the performance of this machine. Once you start hitting the 500 pounds mark. Others forge ahead (6 out of 10)

    DVD-A) Good. (7 out of 10) Not quite as good as the big Toshiba but nearly there.

    Video Quality) Very good interlaced and progressive. It does have the dreaded chroma (mpeg) bug but not as severe as others. Something else this player has is a myriad of Video adjustment parameters. So many in fact that most newbies would be pulling their hair out or calling Eileen, Glen Hoddles fortune teller, to ask her for the best settings.
    I found these adjustments a boon and thought they were very usefull indeed. Newcomers can always leave things in the average setting. Interlacing is done better by others (notably anything with the Silicon Image chip, latest Sil 504 used by TAG and Denon's new 9000 amongst others, or the Faroudja Chip, FLI 2200 as used by Kenwood, Panasonic and many more. 8 out of 10 for the 747's Video performance.

    The one small complaint I do have is Pioneers half hearted attempt at bass management. You have the option to change settings to small surrounds and centre and to feed lower frequencies from those channels to the sub/s. The left and right mains are stuck on large. To me this is daft. Most of us have sub sat systems with crossover points around the 80Hz mark or therabouts. What in the world were Pioneer thinking. Luckily, I have an M&K Bass managment box of tricks that directs bass from all channels to my subs.
    One last word on the Pioneer 747. The fact that this machine gives users the option of buying anything that tickles their fancy (music wise), and is also a very competent DVD Video player, makes it a hit in my book.

    I'm now using this player in all but my highest end installs. A nice all rounder and one that most users would be more than happy with. Yes, buying seperate items for the same amount of money can give better results but for non enthusiasts, read most customers, the convenience of this machine is hard to beat.


    Nic,
    I think that the DVD-A performance of this machine is not miles better than its SACD performance. Just one notch higher. The last word on these formats lies in the software. So far, there have been hits and misses from both parties. Examples below.

    Harry Connick Jr on two channel SACD sounds extraordinary, while the Isley Brothers 3+3 (multi channel SACD) sounds like its been watered down.

    Al Greens greatest hits on DVD-A is the best recording of anything I've heard. Amazing.
    Queens Night at the Opera is a disgrace. (They delayed this by 2-3 weeks to improve it. Apparently it was even worse)

    Thanks again for loaning the discs.



    Eric
     
  7. Stuart M. Robinson

    Stuart M. Robinson
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Guys,

    Fascinating thread. As you may know, I’ve been listening to a lot (and I mean a lot) of SACD and DVD-Audio material lately and I too prefer the latter, largely because it doesn’t suffer from the (sometimes) horrendous HF problems of SACD which, when you become attuned to them, are hard to escape.

    It’s been hard to find some really good SACD discs – there are a few from Opus3 and Frankie Goes To Hollywood’s ‘Rage Hard’ is a fun title, an excellent mix that I recommend getting hold of – whereas good DVD-Audio discs appear to be far more abundant, give or take one or two disasters such as ‘Ah Via Musicom’ and ‘I.E. Artificial Intelligence’.

    At last week’s AES, the guy from Philips freely admitted that the bass management (at 88Hz) in Sony and Philips SACD players actually used PCM (which rather defeats the supposed benefit of a pure DSD path), and a Sony source revealed that they’re now unsure of the effects of all the HF noise added to SACD sources and are starting to wonder if it needs to be correlated with the content…


    Stuart M. Robinson
    SMR Group – http://www.smr-group.co.uk/
     
  8. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,152
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,276
    Eric / Stuart

    Excellent comments which I agree with. I feel I am not loosing my marbles after all. I thought I was out on a limb on this one but what I felt was in line with yor comments. I don't think this is the public perception however.

    Eric your critique of the 747 is accurate and to the point. However there are claims made for player that are OTT both here and in the press. Fashion / latest thing? I don't know but there are many here who will blindly follow advice and be disappointed. Your analysis of the pros and cons is excellent.

    You have PM.
     
  9. G.M

    G.M
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Eric, can you clarify exactly what 'chroma bug' is?
    This machine interests me because it covers all the bases.I'm
    going to audition it next w/end. The only downer is, there doesn't
    seem to be any firmware discs/remote hacks to make it multi-region as in the case of the Denon 2800.
     
  10. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    GM,
    I'll keep this as short as I can.
    The Chroma bug is an upsampling error that exists in most MPEG decoders. As there are only a small number of MPEG decoder manufacturers, these are spread over a very wide spectrum of DVD player suppliers. In other words, the bug exist in MOST players on the market.

    Whats wrong with these decoders? Basically, the offending MPEG decoders in DVD players are not correctly converting the 4:2:0 format chroma info to the 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 format video encoders need.

    How do you spot the bug ?
    Its comes across as weird jagged edges on brightly coloured objects and is particularly easy to spot with red.
    A classic example of the bug can be seen in Toy Story chapter 4. As Woody is making a speech standing on a tinker toy, check out the streaks along the top of the tinkertoy box and Woodys microphone. There are countless other examples which you will be able to spot once you know what to look for.

    Players that have the problem and players that don't.

    A few bug free players,
    Both TAG's
    Camelot Roundtable (uses Panasonic's own MPEG decoder)
    Panasonic RP 56
    Panasonic RP 91


    Some players that have the bug to various degrees,

    Meridian (you read that right)
    Theta Voyager (and that)
    Denon 9000 (yep the new one)
    Pioneer 747 (very little from film sourced material)
    Pioneer DV37
    Pioneer Elite 09
    Proceed PMDT
    Toshiba 9200
    Sony 9000
    Sony 7700

    Hope this helps,
    Eric
     
  11. Reiner

    Reiner
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2000
    Messages:
    3,316
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    61
    Location:
    Germany
    Ratings:
    +13
    Drink Pepsi

    No free advertising, please. ;) (Just kidding ...)

    Interesting thread though, made me curious to go out and listen to some DVD-A/SACD when I find some time ...
     
  12. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Just to add one other thing I've noticed regarding SACD.
    I now have around 10-12 each of two channel and multi channel SACD.
    The two channel recordings sound better every time. (Am I going mad?).

    Eric
     
  13. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,152
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,276
    Agree with you on this one as well. I suspect that bandwidth is being robbed from the L and R to feed the other channels. Only a theory though, could very easily be wrong.
     
  14. Matt F

    Matt F
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    900
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Chester, UK
    Ratings:
    +4
    No, you're not going mad, Unlce E, you have just discovered that the best way to listen to music is in good ol' stereo!:blush:

    You say this is the case with SACD but what about DVD-A? - have you any two channel DVD-A recordings that you can compare with their multi-channelled counterparts?

    Matt.
     
  15. uncle eric

    uncle eric
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi Matt,
    I don't entirely agree.
    There are good and bad points with both two channel and multi channel. For example, a nice studio recording can sound great in two channel. With good equipment a well presented soundstage can sound superb, with plenty of width, depth and even ambience .
    However, live recordings such as John Denvers two channel SACD can sound weird because the audience (and their applause) is up there on the soundstage with him while the listener is way back in another 'zone' so to speak.
    The listener just can't get involved in two channel live recordings as he can with live multi channel recordings.

    As for multi channel, more often than not, the sound engineers play silly games. You can have a soundstage, a piano at the back, a cello to your left side and a lot of other nonsense.
    I get the feeling that this is what they percieve folks wanting. So this is what they keep producing.

    Its certainly not what I want. With a live recording, I want the main soundstage (of course) with perhaps some peripheral instrumention and vocals on the far edges of this soundstage (if applicable), while surround channels should contain nothing more than what it would had you been sitting there at the concert.

    Eric
     
  16. buns

    buns
    Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,100
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Belfast
    Ratings:
    +1
    Eric's comment on the silly games of engineers is a comment I have heard before and is unfortunately quite predictable! Early stereo recording were of the same vein (or is it vain).....the engineers recorded them so u could very clearly hear that this sound came from this side and that one from that.....analagous to a game of pong i guess! I would assume that the same situation will exist with multichannel for a while, though i cant comment since i have never heard any!

    Interesting thread though!

    Ad
     
  17. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Interesting.

    I wondered if anyone could describe the differences between the two formats especially in two channel.

    I have recently picked up a Dcs Delius and Purcell and returned to two channel. i was considering the upgrade to firewire that allows for DSD conversion but I already have 24/192 PCM. Could anyone tell me if they fell DSD has an advantage?

    Also of interest to those of you committing to the new formats is news that Max Townsend of Townsend Audio is about to release a heavily tweaked Pioneer 747. Could be good:)
     
  18. Rachael Bitchlist

    Rachael Bitchlist
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2000
    Messages:
    2,244
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Knocksville, Tennessee
    Ratings:
    +71
    Eric is definitely on the beam. I must have 15 or more multi-channel SACD's. Some of them sound good with reverb in the sides but some like Herbie Hancock's HEADHUNTERS sounds like a stoned 15 year old did the remix. Like, hey man let's like pan the keyboard part around, hey that's totally rad...UGH!

    I definitely prefer SACD in stereo for the time being. I have not bought a bass manager yet, so M-C is at a disadvantage. On my system the 5.1 mix is always bass shy. I presume that with a bass manager and my 555ES' highly ineffective bass management system turned off it would even up...? If the Outlaw bass manager had two sets of inputs I would buy one. I actually could use three.

    Come to think of it all the really poor 5.1 mixes have been on Sony/Epic discs. In their defence I will say that none even approach the absurd mixes I've heard on some DTS CD's. Anybody who has heard DTS's butchering of Edgar Winter's JASMINE NIGHTDREAMS will know what I mean. If my pre couldn't downmix it to stereo I'd turn it into a coaster.

    I'm not against 5.1 music but without proper bass management it's definitely second fiddle stuff.
     
  19. Matt F

    Matt F
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2000
    Messages:
    900
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Chester, UK
    Ratings:
    +4
    Sorry, Eric, my tongue was slightly in my cheek when I said "...the best way to listen to music is in good ol' stereo"!

    Mind you, there is a way of enjoying a live recording through only two channels - a binaural recording played back through headphones!

    Matt.
     
  20. Rachael Bitchlist

    Rachael Bitchlist
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2000
    Messages:
    2,244
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Knocksville, Tennessee
    Ratings:
    +71
    I forgot to mention Chesky records M-C mixes without a centre channel. They're useless! That shores things up.
     
  21. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0


    Have any of you considered the possibility that your systems prefer DVD A to SACD.

    The sound quality of DSD playback is largely dependant on the systems HF performance. DSD has a high level of "out of band" noise and this can cause significant problems in some systems.

    Some SACD players try to reduce this by using low pass filtering between 30khz and 60 khz. Professional users seem to prefer to find systems that are HF tolerant and minimise the filtering. Original reviews of the high end Sony players did point this out.

    Essentially SACD is system dependant and may sound truly awesome in a different set up.

    By the way, normal CD,s, upsampled to 24/192 sound awesome :D
     
  22. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,152
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,276
    Airwise

    I have a long train journey to London on sunday, back tuesday. I will see if I can write something on the train as a technical critique of DVD A / SACD.

    I knew Max had got major changes / jumps? in performance in his tweaking of SACD. I will be very interested in what he has done with this player.
     
  23. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Eric

    Interesting that the two channel discs sound better. Both multichannel variants of SACD and DVD A use forms of lossless compression to get up to 90 minutes of 6 channnel audio onto the disc.

    I understand that in multichannel form SACD is capable of 120db signal-to-noise ratio up to 20khz, so across the audible bandwidth it rates as a 20 bit system. Is this correct?

    Multichannel DVD A is limited to 96khz for the front channels and 48khz for the surrounds. I am currently doing comparison tests with my dcs combo but it is already clear that the soudstage opens up massively(possibly artificially) when switching from 96 to 192.

    This would suggest that the sound "quality" of multichannel dvd audio will not be as engaging as the two channel mix if that is performed at 192khz. I'd rather have two channels of 192 anytime.

    We really need uncompressed 24/192 for all six channels along with digital bass management. Then I might go back to multichannel.
     
  24. Stuart M. Robinson

    Stuart M. Robinson
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Airwise,

    “The sound quality of DSD playback is largely dependant on the systems HF performance. DSD has a high level of "out of band" noise and this can cause significant problems in some systems.”

    All the HF noise in SACD is not something in its favour; in fact the decorrelated HF noise is an area of performance that is causing concern even amongst the developers of the format, if the news out of the last AES meeting is anything to go by. I’m sceptical though, as to how much ‘damage’ this could do to the playback chain, especially if a system is incapable of (really) high frequency playback. Personally, I’m using hardware with ample bandwidth, including Tannoy SuperTweeters, which may be why the HF portion of some SACD discs sounds so bad.

    In a later message:

    “Multichannel DVD A is limited to 96khz for the front channels and 48khz for the surrounds.”

    That’s not true; DVD-Audio can be 96kHz across all six channels in a multi-channel mix. Besides, the differences between 192kHz and 96kHz are negligible, I doubt very much that they could affect a perceived soundstage, unless of course the mixes are different, which I think may be what you’re hearing (the 192kHz will always be stereo and the 96kHz multi-channel, I know of no disc with two versions of the stereo track).


    Stuart M. Robinson
    SMR Group – http://www.smr-group.co.uk/
     
  25. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I would have to disagree with this. Experts dcs did a listening test back in 1998 and please allow me to quote from the published results.

    "the two highlighted effects with 192 are interesting. The bandwidth of 192 far exceeds the normal bandwidth attributed to human hearing, even using gentle roll off filters, so it is hard to believe it is related to frequency response. The stereo image widening is a very strong effect, observed by virtually all listeners."

    I guess I was right when we first locked horns;)

    This experience is born out by myself and many fellow listeners comparing the same mix through dcs Purcell and Delius combination. 192 offers a panoramic soundstage whilst suffering from a slightly slower and softer bass. This has been observed across many discs and listening sessions.

    I would suggest that if these differences are negligable to you, your system does not image well which may explain your Theta review:p
     
  26. Stuart M. Robinson

    Stuart M. Robinson
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Airwise,

    Leaving the childishness aside, and your incorrect information about 48kHz being the upper sampling rate limit…

    If the best you can do is publish a non-scientific quote from a manufacturer of up-sampling devices, then you’re skating on thin ice. It also, probably unwittingly, demonstrates a pre-conceived bias and where you got the idea that with 192kHz “soudstage opens up massively” because your own summary and that quote are frighteningly similar.

    What is your ABX methodology and how are you performing this test? It looks like you’re passing 96kHz digitally through an upsampling device? So you’re not comparing 96kHz and 192kHz from an actual disc? Is it any wonder there are differences, when you’re inserting another component into your playback chain, or are you using some other comparative method?


    Stuart M. Robinson
    SMR Group – http://www.smr-group.co.uk/
     
  27. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    14,741
    Products Owned:
    7
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +10,630
    I deleted airwise's reply as it was uncalled for and broke a number of forum rules. I've also deleted his registration though I haven't banned him.
     
  28. Stuart M. Robinson

    Stuart M. Robinson
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Airwise,

    Well thank you, that’s about as perfect an example of a post from a person who has absolutely nothing to back up his argument(s) as I have ever seen. Stomp your feet, throw a tantrum, throw insults, start a flame war, whatever, none of those things actually serve to further your case. Calm down a little, please.

    Don’t, whatever you do, actually try to explain to us how you’re reaching the conclusions you’re posting here. I guess we should thank you for taking the easy way out.

    Since we’re not getting anywhere, I’ll leave you with one thought: One thing I never understand is why, folks who put so much store in the ability of their hearing, won’t actually test those abilities. ABX testing for example, relies solely on the true ability to hear differences between components, it tests what we can hear, not what we think we can hear. Now what’s wrong with that…


    Stuart M. Robinson
    SMR Group
    http://www.smr-group.co.uk/
     
  29. Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
     
  30. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Did you just make all that up???:D

    Chip
     

Share This Page

Loading...
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice