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Sharp XV-Z90E better than Optoma H50 for Rainbows?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by BBD, Apr 16, 2003.

  1. BBD

    BBD
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    Just had a demo of the H50 at Sevenoaks. I was impressed with the picture quality especially allowing for the far from perfect demo room.
    The problem is rainbows. It took a while to see them (bright out door scenes at start of film) but once I started seeing them I couldn't ignore them. He didn't have the Z90 available for demo, is it worth tracking one down? I read posts suggesting the faster colour wheel on the Z90 help with rainbows, is it faster than the H50.

    I'm upgrading from an very old CRT and the hassle free setup is very appealing even if the picture is quite the match.

    PS He also had a Sim2 running during the demo, wow is that a noisy machine or what! I had to put my ear to the H50 to hear it over the Sim.
     
  2. Tibbsy

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    I've recently seen a demo of Optoma's new H56 and even saw rainbows on that. Seems that some people are more prone to seeing them than others. I have seen the Sharp but it was only a very limited demo. I'd certainly recommend viewing any projector before you buy, in fact, see if you can arrange a head-to-head. Check prices before you buy, you might be able to beat Sevonoaks down.
     
  3. starshiptrooper

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    :hiya: Hi Guys............

    In reply re Rainbows...........I see them every where........from Infocus to Optima........to Sharp............. to Sim 300+.........forget it guys.........also the Sharp 90 and Optima are only 4x3.....THEY DO NOT HAVE 16X9 WIDESCREEN ANAMORPHIC PANELS........sTAY WELL CLEAR.......Try re-selling........who wants to buy old-hat 4x3?

    I would'nt. The obvious choice is either CRT( Barco etc) or LCD eg Panny 300, Epson TW100 or Sanyo PLV-Z1.
    Research and shop around.

    Good Luck and Happy Viewing.
    :)
     
  4. xebay11

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    Gee, DLP rainbows are way over-played in your post, the Sharp Z90 and other fine DLP PJs only exhibit very occasional rainbows and it only lasts for a micro second, compared with LCD displays which display grey blacks and screendoor all the time and give the grey misty effect in dark scenes.

    Take even the humble Infocus X1, with 12 deg DDR DMD dark chips, beats the AE300 in blacks and contrast and let us not talk about the way overpriced, last year's old hat, TW100. The Z1 looks like a real wire mesh display when compared to any DLP.

    DLPs give the deepest digital blacks and high contrast, crisp image and very good whites.

    Maybe you should check them out....DLPs are featured in almost all high end serious, home theatre PJs and if you had watched the 75th Academy Awards, all the large displays and projections were DLP units. I don't remember anyone complaining of rainbows.
     
  5. Rande

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    I got a Z90E. Was a bit disappointed when I discovered it wasn't native 16:9, but I'm still pretty happy with it.

    Rainbows - the rainbows are a lot smaller than the optima, and now that I've stopped trying to look for them, I don't see them anymore. They aren't very big....I found them to be about 1/2 the size of a pencil at a 2m distance.

    I find the trick is to make sure that you haven't overzoomed the image - if you can take the whole picture in without moving your eyes around too much (aka front row effect), then you shouldn't see them at all whilst watching.
    Hence I'm watching on a 5' screen instead of a 6' as it's more comfortable.
     
  6. calscot

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    xebay11, you sound like you've got chip on your shoulder. Get real, for some people rainbows are a complete deal breaker.

    I demoed an Optima H50 in Seven Oaks playing Moulon Rouge without knowing whether I was sensitive to rainbows (I was really hoping I wasn't) but I seen them really badly every couple of seconds.

    It was a very large screen and the film does make you move your eyes to different parts of the screen, but it was completely unbearable.

    My girlfriend had never heard of rainbows was also sensitive and couldn't stand watching for long due to mild headaches. I had to convince her that LCD's didn't do that so that she didn't throw cold water on the whole PJ thing.

    Higher end machines might be the best due to having much faster color wheels which might make a big difference, and Rande's advice seems pretty logical. The Z90 has a supercharged color wheel and so may be ok, but you have to test for yourself - and for your partner.

    What we need is 3 chip, widescreen dlp's - are they that expensive to make? If they made a XVGA one for about 3 grand, I would easily be able to convince my girlfriend that we should get one instead of the cheapy Z1 that we'll probably order within the next week. I hope to upgrade to one or that new Sony technology in a couple of years.

    Cheers,
    Cal.
     
  7. Rande

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    I originally went in for the Z1 (at £1500), but the salespeople managed to convince me to buy the Z90E by making a substantial discount (£500 to £1900). Which was still £100 more than I could have bought it on the internet for, but I didn't begrudge them the money given that two of them spent an hour demoing 3 projectors for me (Z1, Z90E, Optima).

    I would have stuck to my guns for the Z1 except that the zoom was too short and I'd have had to put it on my coffee table as opposed to the wall behind me.
     
  8. BBD

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    Thanks for the comments. I seem to have stirred a hornet’s nest over this issue! I plan to demo a Z90E and an AE-300 over Easter but I think I might be staying with a big ugly CRTs until both formats have fully matured.
     
  9. Gary Lightfoot

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    Probably a good move - the newer High Def widescreen DLP chips with the dimple fix and possibly new colour wheel are not far off, so in a year or two, DLP will be a great improvement on what's currently out there.

    Over the past year thy've improved no-end, so I don't think you'll have long to wait if you need to go digital.

    Gary.
     
  10. starshiptrooper

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    In reply to XEbay11.......I think you seem to be greatly missing the point.
    Having seen the SIM2 300+ and many DLP's down I have still yet to be convinced by DLP.The Rainbow effects are VERY PROMINENT and I am not paying £9000 to have a continual light show in front of my eyes.If I wanted that I would set up a Laser/Strobe extraviganza at half the price.

    You seem to go on about how good the Blacks are on DLP. Sorry to disappoint. They are NOT.Any High End system worthy of note would have installed a CRT system eg Vidikron VISION 1or 2, or Barco and coupled probably with a SNELL and WILLCOX Line Opptomiser. Only CRT gives True, Perfect Blacks.PERIOD

    If you want to see how BAD Electronic Camera looks go to the Star Wars Parts 1 and 2. Absolutely DIRE. If I wanted to watch a Arcade game I'd watch it on PC. There is NO substitute for 35mm.

    To get the BEST from your PJ get it ISF callibrated.It's £250 well worth spent and worth every penny.

    Happy Viewing
     
  11. xebay11

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    Oh well, Star ship trooper, since you feel so strongly against DLP and to prove that I do not have a chip on my shoulder, I will leave your comments as they are :)
     
  12. Gary Lightfoot

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    If you're one of the few people that suffer from rainbows then you're unlikely to enjoy DLP until they find an alternative to to the colour wheel.

    Fortunately for me, I don't see them at all, and neither does anybody I know.

    As for black level - even the cinema doesn't do true blacks, so it's not an issue as far as I'm concerned...

    If you can accomodate CRT then stay with it - it can still by and large produce the best images of any current projection system, so why go digital?

    Gary.
     
  13. xebay11

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    Hi Gary, I do suffer from rainbows but not with the 5x SCR of the Z90, Z10000 et al, so DLP does it for me and I do agree that cinemas do not do true blacks too, so I do not have the need to exceed film by going CRT.
     
  14. calibos

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    Those DLP's at the academy awards were $100,000 3 chip DLP's. ie No colour wheels, No spinning wheel whine and thus no Rainbows!

    Affordable 3 chip DLP's will come. Remember the first LCD projectors were single LCD panel devices. Now every LCD PJ is a 3 panel RGB device. One of the problems AFAIK is that Texas instruments hold the patents for DLP and charge a significant fee for the technology. If only they would let the technology go truely mass market where economies of scale would really kick in and then manufactures could afford to build PJs with 3 chips thus negating the need for colour wheels.
     
  15. Gary Lightfoot

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    I did read somewhere that even 3 chip DLPs can produce rainbows for some people - apparently the chips pulse in some fashion so that there is still a delay between the colours being projected onto the screen.

    Gary.
     
  16. Dimmy

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    Demoed a Sim 2 HT300+ at Sevenoaks with Lord Of The Rings & Ali. Couldn't see any sign of rainbowing, blacks were true black. Although the image seemed very dim at times and I found myself squinting to pick out dark levels of detail.

    This was probably due to the projector's unusually low brightness levels.

    I originally wanted to buy the HT50, but after a few more demos I did become proned to the rainbowing effect. Sort of like there was a glass pane over the image which was covered in water and had the sun shining directly on it (if that makes sense given I'm in a dark room at the time).

    I hadn't noticed it before because I'd always used Lord Of The Rings for demo. But when playing some of the outdoor scenes from Jackie Brown I found the picture almost unwatchable - despite the descent detail levels & blacks.

    Since my budget allows it, I'm going to stick with LCD now until something better comes along. Or at least something better that doesn't cost £9,000 (i.e. Sim 2)
     
  17. bobbin

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    Now have a NEC HT1000. Demoed a few PJ but could not see this one so had to take a chance as no places I found had a unit to demo or would send one out for demo. So I've had this for 4 days now, here is what I find.

    Rainbows I knew where bad on a 2x speed colour wheel.
    4x wheels i.e sim 200 DMF not at all bad but there.
    5x wheel i.e. Sharp Z90 perhaps a bit better but still rainbows but lot less then 2x wheel. Same for Sim 300+ but the least of all hardly ever saw them.

    I can see rainbows on my HT1000. but only if I move my head/eyes around wildly. Can occationally see them with moving white object on dark background. So can the wife.

    I would say I can see them more than the Sharp Z90. I've not seen the Optoma but if it has 2x wheel I fear I could not stand it. If 4x wheel perhaps same as my HT1000.
    Over the few days with my new 'toy' I can live with the rainbows. Had to force myself to stop trying to find them.

    This is VERY hard don't know why, seems I fear that one day they will multiply so I need to keep sight of them now to make sure know where they are, LOL.
    My kids have never commented and know nothing about the effect, but they are young. So I'm living to accept them and after 4 days use are not bothering me really.

    MAIN problem is headaches. Both me and the wife.
    I thought I had made a huge mistake with this PJ. After first night (3 hours use) headache was crushingly bad. Also my eyes are drawn after 30 mins. Although I noticed this drawing at DLP demos I never let it concern me, did not realise. Again 2x wheels worse than 4x wheels and I never noticed the problem with the Sim 300+.

    I was devestated fearing my PJ choise was a mistake. I've watched it for 4 night last night watched all of Lord of the Rings 3 1/2 hours.
    Started with forcing myself to relax. did not look for rainbows just watched the film.

    NO headache, night before this did not 'really' get one either just a dull ache.

    I hope I am getting use to this PJ. the HT1000 is everything as good as everyone has said. It is stunning. If people want more of a review on the HT1000 let me know.
    I'me only using a 5ft wide screen and sitting 11' away.

    My advise. If I had demoed this for a whole film I would not have bought it assuming I got a headache. I do think I'm getting use to it. Infact I'll keep it (the restocking charge is crippling from av-sales 30%, who are typical in this matter, but offered great advise so I would use them again).
    Do see it before you buy, or like me take the biggest gamble imaginable.

    I thought at my age I would be more sensible by now.
     
  18. BBD

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    Thanks for your post bobbin very interesting. Does anybody know the colour wheel speed for the Optoma H50. On the Optoma website it's doesn't say although it does refer to the:
    "Double Data Rate (DDR) DLP™ Technology by Texas Instruments"
    for the H56. Is this a faster colour wheel?
     
  19. RTFM

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    The H50 is 2 speed 4 segment (120Hz) and the H56 is 4 speed 6 segment (240Hz)
     
  20. Tibbsy

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    I've been looking at projectors in this price range. I managed to get an HT1000, TW100 and Sony's VW12HT on loan at home for a week. I loved the blacks and film-like images the NEC produced, as well as the design and functions of this machine. However, I started to notice a solarised effect with images that were moving and unfocused. In fact, this was so apparent in certain scenes of Apocalypse Now that it put me off buying the NEC. I also suffered from headaches, but as you pointed out this can be reduced but in my experience not eradicated.

    Hopefully, I'll get hold of JVC's new DDILA machine and see what all the fuss is about.

    Regards, Tibbsy
     
  21. Messiah

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    Tibbsy

    The solarisation effect you refer to I have found out is common to most (if not all) DLP machines and is technically known as temporal dithering. I belive casued by a panning shot moving too quickly for the mirros to keep up as they are machanical items and if the image is moving quicker than the fastest speed of the mirrors then that is what you see.
     
  22. calscot

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    That temporal dithering sounds interesting but if the mirrors are designed to cope with 30 frames per second, then no matter how fast the pan, the source from the DVD is still no more than 30 changes per second and so the mirrors should cope. Unless there is some interpolating going on.

    I've only a vague idea how the chips work but here's some rough calculations based on conjecture.

    With say a 3 times RGB color wheel this increases to 270 changes per second giving a time of just under 0.004 seconds.

    I supose with a 12bit dac it'll have to potentially do 4096 changes per colour per frame for the brightness resolution giving 1 microsecs. That means the mirror has to move at a maximum 1MHz, which sounds very fast (but it's at least way out of hearing range).

    Of course a 3 chip dlp would only have to go a ninth of that speed which would then presumably cure the problem.

    Feel free to correct me, I'm just trying to understand.

    Cheers,
    Callum.
     
  23. VirusKiller

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    Hi gary,

    What's the DLP "dimple" problem?

    Thanks,
    Joel
     

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