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Sharp XV-Z12000 vs. Sim2 HT300 XTRA-H vs. Barco Cine VERSUM 70

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by loonatic, Aug 12, 2004.

  1. loonatic

    loonatic
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    I am really looking to get a Barco 7LT CRT projector but it is looking like this may not be a practicle option due to the constraints about positioning.

    So I am looking into high-end DLP projectors.

    Has anyone got one of the following or demo'd any of them ?

    Sharp XV-Z12000
    Sim2 HT300 XTRA-H
    Barco Cine VERSUM 70

    I have listed them in the order in which I rate them in terms of spec and if things don't work out for the CRT projector I will obviously demo them myself but am just looking for opinions at the moment.

    My main worry, apart from seeing rainbows as I've never seen a DLP in action, is how noisy they are. I had a Sony HS10 some time ago and it was way way too loud.

    I have seen the Barco 7LT CRT projector in action and it is as near to silent as I have heard a projector of any kind.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  2. ShinObiWAN

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    Go out of your way to view the Z12000 its the best of the bunch and quite frankley, very, very close to the images my Barco 808 used to throw out.

    It has a genuine 4600:1 contrast ratio after calibration, the others you've listed don't even have that as the quoted manufacturers spec never mind after calibration.

    The HS10 was fairly noisey compared to more modern machines, the noise produced by the Z12000 was a gentle hum, easy to forget about and certainly not intrusive. I'd imagine if your a couple of meters away then you'd be hard pressed to notice it during a movie.

    I'd say its the best digital around at under £10,000 at the moment, seriously get down to nexnix and view their demo model.
     
  3. loonatic

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    Have spoken to NexNix and they have a demo Z12k on order so will have a wait a while until I can get a demo :mad:

    They did mention that I might need the wide angle lens option to achieve a 1.83m wide 16:9 image from 4m which would be an added cost.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  4. hornydragon

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    DEMO the marantz 12S3 as well as the Mitsubishi HC2000 and perhaps the Optoma H77 and infocus 7205 as well. 12S3 properly set-up running HD is incedible. Also get a demo of the Ivision HD/ Action Model one (digital projection/Projection Design units)... Ivision is a bit cheaper but action model one has colour options for the case.
     
  5. loonatic

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    Well I'm booked in next Wednesday for a demo of the Sharp Z12k and the Mitsubishi HC2000 at NexNix :smashin:

    Have also been reading good things about the Yamaha DTX-1100.

    The quoted dB level of the Sharp at 33dB seems a bit high. The Mitsubishi is rated at only 23dB and the Yamaha at 27dB. But that's only on paper...what they are like in real life is what counts.

    Can't find anyone local who has a Marantz 12S3 to demo...any ideas ?

    Went to see a Sim2 Domino 20H the other day and was not that impressed at all...though that could have been because they had it set-up with an 8ft screen which from the viewing distance seemed to be pushing it a bit far.

    The only good thing was that I did not see any rainbows :clap:

    Cheers, Lee
     
  6. hornydragon

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    Musical images???? for 12S3
     
  7. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Hornydragon are there not any more PJ's you can think of to add to your list :zonked:

    G
     
  8. Messiah

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    The HC2000 23dB quoted level is true. IT is silent from anything more than about a foot away. Incredible.

    If you're ever in Cardiff give me a shout as you're welcome to pop in for demo of my S3, including some wonderful HD material :D
     
  9. loonatic

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    Thanks for the offer of a demo Messiah :smashin: but I don't find myself over your part of the country often enough.

    How would you say the S3 competes in terms of noise ?

    Cheers, Lee
     
  10. Messiah

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    Competes with what? If against the 3 in yout list I would say it wins, although I've not heard a Cine Versum. However, a different matter against the HC2000, which is almost inaudible. The S3 is not LOUD loud but you will hear a very quiet whirring in silent scenes. Quietest pj I've ever owned but holy grail would still be for quieter still. Stonking performer though :D
     
  11. Jackass

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    Neil,

    How is the fan on the S3 compared to the 10k?
    When i had the 10k the fan annoyed me a little.

    The HC2000 or H77 are on my short list.

    Regards,

    Steve
     
  12. Messiah

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    Now I know why you sold it :) It's quieter than the Z10k when in low lamp mode. In High mode it's about the same. I always run mine in low lamp mode and rarely hear it during a movie though in quieter scenesyou can hear it if you are that way inclined.
     
  13. Steve-Leeds

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    I've seen The Runco CL710, Infocus 7205, Marantz S3, Cine Versum 80, Sim2 300Xtra H and the Sharp 12000. The best, by streets is the Sharp - excellent blacks, huge control (3 aperture settings - the only projector to have this), awesome colours and all under £8,000.......need I say more, mine's on order !!
     
  14. loonatic

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    Well you certainly did you homework Steve :smashin:

    How did they compare in terms of noise levels though mate ? as this is a real deal breaker for me.

    Also, where have you ordered from ? and at what price ?

    Cheers, Lee
     
  15. Godfather

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    How did the demo go Lee?
     
  16. loonatic

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    Well I've just got back from NexNix an what a nice bunch they are :smashin:

    Spent nearly two hours chatting with Kevin and looking at both the Mitsubishi HC2000 and the Sharp Z12k.

    Both PJ's were tested using the same Pio 868 DVD player via both HDMI @720p and Component @576p firing onto a 6ft wide Goo screen applied directly to the wall with a black flock tape border. The viewing distance was about 12ft and the projectors were set-up on a PJ table directly behind the viewing position.

    My two demo DVDs were Finding Nemo and Lord of the Rings, Fellowship of the Ring.

    We started things off with the HC2000 as it was allready up'n'running. The first thing to say about this PJ is that it is damn quiet...a bit ugly and non-descript...but damn quiet.

    We popped Nemo in first and everything looked great. Kevin explained that the HC2000 has two speed settings for its colour wheel, 4x and 5x. When set to 5x the colours are far two bold and brash - kind of like my plasma when set to dynamic setting. At 4x the colours are much more natural looking but if you are susceptible to rainbows then at 4x you are more likely to see them than at 5x. Luckily I did not see any sign of rainbows at all.

    LOTR also looked very good to me. Panning shots were very smooth and it seemed to have a good level of contrast and showed a good amount of detail in shadow areas.

    The opening battle scene in LOTR was handled very well by the HC2000 as I have seen it turn into a murky mess before now with all those small dark characters running around the scene. But it was very clear indeed.

    Overall though the image was a little soft but this may of helped to mask the panel structure which even on these HD2+ units I can still see at times. A very impressive unit especially when you factor in the price.

    We then hooked up the Sharp and as soon as it was powered on it was much nosier than the HC2000. Not as bad as my old Sony HS10 but I was class it as intrusively loud unless you can position it out of ear shot. But for my set-up the PJ will be more-or-less directly above my head with the Sharp due to it’s throw.

    The Sharp was much sharper than the HC2000 though this did mean that the panel structure was more visible and at time small objects looked a tad pixelated.

    But the colours in Nemo just jumped off the screen and it looked really 3D. I think this is the best I have seen Nemo looking in my limited experience.

    LOTR was not as impressive but that may well be down to the PJ having just been taken out of it’s box. The Sharp has a huge array of settings that can be adjusted.

    The extra sharpness I mentioned earlier did seem to show itself in terms of more noise in the image and with the Sharp I preferred the component feed which seemed to soften things slightly…whereas the HC2000 seemed to benefit from the HDMI feed.

    I think that the Sharp has the potential to provide a truly stunning image, which would surpass that of the HC2000 but it would require tweaking.

    We also quickly supplied both screen with a Sky feed and this is were the Sharp’s use of the Faroujda chipset really showed itself providing some very nice looking images. The HC2000 was not that bad…but not in the same class here.

    The biggest disappointment for me though was the noise level of the Sharp, which I don’t think I could live with. It was also kicking out a serious amount of heat from its side exhaust vent…much more so than the HC2000.

    So…have I made any decisions?

    Well...not really. As it stands at the moment if I were going to go for a DLP then I would really seriously consider the HC2000 as it was a very good performer, with very low noise levels at a good price. Noise levels aside I would go for the Sharp - but unless I could find a way to baffle to the noise somewhat it’s a non-starter for me I fear.

    I will have to give it some serious thinking but my heart is still set on a Barco 7LT I think even though my head is telling me it may not be the most practical or flexible choice.

    If I go for the CRT then it’s really just for DVDs and the odd bit of Sky. Whereas with a DLP I can still use it for DVDs and Sky+ but I also have the options of using it with my games consoles and my PC for both hi-def playback and Doom.

    Why can’t things be straight forward :rolleyes:

    Cheers, Lee
     
  17. loonatic

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    Hey Henry,

    A mixed bag really I guess sums it up.

    Image wise the Sharp was very very good. And Nemo looked out standing...even better than on your Barco I'd say.

    Plenty of detail and with it's high constrast ratio of 5500:1 it handle's itself pretty well in the dark scenes.

    Panning was also handled somewhat better than the Barco but I'm sure that will be sorted out when you get your Crystalio.

    But it was too damn noisy for me I think :thumbsdow

    The good news is that I think I have sold my plasma :smashin:

    Cheers, Lee
     
  18. Messiah

    Messiah
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    Nice one Lee. Can you not get to Musical Images (www.musical-images.co.uk) who have the S3 on demo in each of their branches.
     
  19. Godfather

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    I'm not surprised. Animation nearly always look great on DLP and LCDs because of the very high light output. I think you'll need 8 or even 9" CRTs to match the brightness of a typical DLP on a decent sized screen. But animation makes up less than 0.5% of my viewing so I'll be sticking with the Barco for a while. ;)

    Good luck in your seach for the perfect projector.
     
  20. loonatic

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    Don't get me wrong Henry...I still love your Barco and it's still at the top of my list, and all things being equal I would take your Barco over all the DLPs I've seen.

    It's just damn akward with it being so large and me being so tall :D

    Cheers, Lee
     
  21. loonatic

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    Well I emailed them on Saturday and have had no reply yet.

    I will give them a call tomorrow as their Edgware branch is not too far away and you'd think they'd be interested as I am also on the look out for a new DVD player and amplifier as I have sold the lot :eek:

    But you say the S3's not that much quieter than the Sharp 10k...does that mean it won't be much quieter than the Sharp 12k ?

    Cheers, Lee
     
  22. Godfather

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    Hehe, I sounded a bit more defensive than I intended. But seriously Finding Nemo, Toy Story etc make even bad projectors look good, so personally I wouldn't use it as a test disc. Save it for demos to impress your mates. :D
     
  23. loonatic

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    Yeah I hear what your saying...I just think it's such a gloriously colourful and vibrant film in parts – I have mainly been using LOTR as my main test disc as it has a good mixture of dark and bright scenes and is generally a well mastered disc.

    Out of interest what did you use when looking around at PJs ?

    Cheers, Lee
     
  24. Messiah

    Messiah
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    You'll really need to demo yourself as I have an unusual situation due to mounting position under a sloping ceiling. However, I have noticed over the past week that with the aircon on and the room temp controlled to around 20 degrees the pj has been much quieter. It is quieter than every other LCD/DLP pj I have demo'd other than the HC2000.

    Give Pat Shah a call directly at the Edgeware branch and see if he can sort something for you.
     
  25. loonatic

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    Well I got to see a Marantz S3 in action today thanks to a kind forum member who shall remain anonymous in case they don’t want hoards of people wanting a demo – let’s just say he’s a good friend of yours Messiah :D

    The unit itself is not as large as the Sharp I saw but it’s not small…but once it’s up on the ceiling it’s really not that obtrusive at all. It was firing at a very nice Stewart 7’ Firehark tab-tensioned screen with the source material being from a Pioneer 747 and Sky+.

    Surprisingly the Pioneer was set to output interlaced via component leaving the PJs onboard Faroudja processing to deinterlace and scale the image which the owner found to be the best option.

    Sky+ was converted to component via a JS Tech RGB2YUV box.

    The test DVD used were The Fifth Element and my favourite LOTR Fellowship of the rings.

    Anyway…that’s enough of the background.

    Having seen several DLP PJs over the last few days I was ready to start mentally ticking off the bad points as they occurred…the problem was that not one of them arose !!!

    From our viewing position the panel structure could not be detected at all.

    The opening battle scene in LORT was truly outstanding with just so much detail visible yet no sign of any noise whatsoever. Blacks were very convincingly black whilst the shields still maintained their vibrant metallic colouring. The action on screen never once lost its clarity even when the hoards of Orcs, or whatever they are, came steaming over the mountain top.

    The next scene when Gandalf enters the Shire was very colourful without looking fake in any way and the skin tones looked spot on.

    Again the opening scenes from The Fifth Element were just as good with everything just looking correct and natural…not at all digital looking.

    Sky+ was probably the biggest revelation though with some of the better transmitted film channels looking absolutely fabulous…even the Olympics looked good and that’s only being transmitted as 4:3.

    The one thing I have not yet mentioned is the noise level of the PJ.

    Well…it’s not as quiet as the HC2000, but I did not expect it to be.

    It is much quieter than the Sharp and that I found out was with the PJ set to high lamp mode. Dropping down to the low lamp setting the noise level drops considerably to a gentle whir. Nothing that you would call intrusive at all…it’s the kind of noise that blends nicely into the background rather than a growling noise that seems ever present.

    This is by far the best DLP I have seen to date.

    I think it makes a huge difference that it is in someone’s home and therefore has been set-up properly as opposed to a demo model just taken out of it’s box.

    The only downside I can see is the price…it’s the most expensive of the bunch that I have seen…even more than the CRT which includes professional 2 day installation.

    I have now really run out of reasons to pursue the CRT route any further I feel…if money and space was no object then a Barco Cine 9 coupled to a high-end scaler etc would still be ideal but when you compare the entry level Barco 7LT to a properly set-up Marantz S3 and then factor in the conveince and flexabilty of the DLP over CRT it starts to get hard to justify.

    So I think I am going to raid the piggy bank and plump for an S3 with a nice fixed frame screen, maybe even a Stewart Firehawk. In the long term I think this will suit me best.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  26. loonatic

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    I spoke with Pat before getting my demo offer and he was going to arrange for the demo unit to be brought over from their Covent Garden branch.

    He was also going to try and get hold of an Sim2 HT300XTRA-H so I will still keep the appointment but will now be able to talk money as I am pretty sold on the S3 allready.

    Cheers, Lee
     
  27. Messiah

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    :thumbsup: Nice one Lee. It's always difficult to tell someone you think your own pj is amazing so always nice to hear someone else's objective opinion. Whilst it wasn't my pj you saw it does give me that warm and cosy feeling :smashin:

    Enjoy.

    BTW. Wait until you see HD material on the S3. Another step up again. Trust me. Ask Hornydragon, he's experienced it :D
     
  28. hornydragon

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    Gladiator 1080i made me go up to the screen and touch it! :blush: just to make sure is wasnt a time hole messiah had conjured up in his HC!
    However Bikini Diaries was it just made me drool, (sorry messiah but you are very handy with that mop)! They only DLP that has come close to that S3 is is the Infocus Screenplay 777 (ok that was on a 3m wide screen) but even at 20k thats what i expect.....
    I dont think the 12s3 can disappoint, until the S4 comes out at least!!!! But it is a fair old Wedge at £8500 RRP and makes the HC2000 lokk very good value, Barco cine versum 80 or 90 the one with the commander similar too Sims link is nice and Barco have good lens options etc

    Now to really put you off your supper! JVC new Dila Models are what i am waiting for, the only way to get DLP better...... Bin the colour wheel!
    Thats exactly what Dila Does!!!!
     
  29. Messiah

    Messiah
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    Thanks HD

    Maybe. But what about the blacks? That's what gives the sense of depth and without it the image won't look near as good, even without the rainbows and any other DLP artefacts :D
     
  30. Godfather

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    That's great news Lee. I'd love to see it once you've got it up and running!
     

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