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Seriously considering returning my HS10! :(

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by John_N, Jan 18, 2003.

  1. John_N

    John_N
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    Oh dear.

    After all the excitement and the enthusiasm I am now seriously considering returning my HS10.. :(

    There's nothing wrong with it - but I'm starting to find that the fan noise which didn't bother me at first is now starting to really get on my nerves.

    I've watched 2 full length movies on it. Monsters inc was fine because it was quite noisy and I didn't really notice the fan noise. However - then I tried mission impossible 2 last night. It was quite quiet in places and the constant hum from the unit ruined my concentration.

    My other half says I was blowing it up out of all proportion but now I just keep noticing the noise in the quiet parts of the movie.

    I'm now talking to nexnix about returning it and trying out something like an NEC HT1000. I haven't seen the HT1000 in action but I gather it has good reviews and in 'eco mode' the fan noise is supposed to be very very quiet ('almost silent') which sounds maybe more what I was looking for..

    Gutted. Especially since the picture on the sony is brilliant and I don't want to spend more cash on the NEC but....

    :(

    John
     
  2. Kramer

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    The fan(s) on my HS10 (typical unit I presume) are VERY dependent on room temperature.

    Normally, in Eco (cinema black) mode, the noise isn't intrusive & acceptable. Same as an AE100.

    But.............

    When the room is very warm, the fan(s) speed up considerably, & make the noise unacceptable :mad:

    To prove this, I've ran a 12" desktop fan blowing air over the HS10 from the side, & after several minutes, the HS10 has again returned to it's "normal" unintrusive sound.

    Very precise temp monitoring in the HS10 - aswell as everything else :eek:

    Obviously better for longevity & less risk of damage to the optics/panels etc., but damn irriating.

    I'm working on getting the unit outside my viewing room, thereby having a totally silent HC.

    Try the desktop fan thing & see if it makes a difference. Only need to have a 12" fan on low power several feet from the PJ (& to the side).
     
  3. John_N

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    Thanks

    I haven't tried the fan approach... yet. My problem is that our 'TV room' is decorated with period furniture and antiques and the idea was that the projector was going to be inconspicous. Even worse - the room is so arranged that the projector is on an 'external facing' wall which makes mounting it in another room impossible although desirable. I thought about building an alcove near the ceiling and having the projector housed "outside" in a special extension firing through a glass window into the room. However this works out being very problematic and expensive.

    Am I being unrealistic here? All I wanted was a unit that I could mount near the ceiling of this room and watch a movie without being constantly distracted by the fan noise.

    I've read about a number of people talking about 'hush boxes' so I guess the problem is widespread. I could make a hush box on the wall with a glass window and have a duct to suck hot air out of the box and a duct to lead cool outside air directly into the projector intake. But we're talking major hassle here now.

    Sigh. I was wondering what quality fans sony used in the HS10. To my ears, the noise I hear isn't just 'air movement' noise - it's also mechanical noise and therefore there is an insidious voice inside telling me to get it to bits and work out what the fan drive voltages are and see if I can't get a replacement fan that would be quieter. ...But of course there are worries about making sure it gives enough airflow and not wrecking my warranty.

    I've looked at the NEC HT1000 because it was supposed to be good and quiet but then I noticed another post about PAL tearing images at 50hz.. and I don't know whether that's a problem still or not...
     
  4. theritz

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    Hi John,

    I have every sympathy with your plight, there's nothing worse than a new toy whose appeal pales after a couple of days.

    I wonder though, given your earlier posting querying the noise level of the HS10, whether you are so wound up by the noise level issue that your judgement is a bit screwed up ? - For goodness sake don't take offence - its deffo not intended that way, but I find if I get sufficiently wound up over something, I end up persuading myself of all sorts. I'm not saying the HS10 is quiet - Kramer informed me that the AE100 is quieter, and I find its noise an occasional distraction in quieter parts of movies (my room tends towards the warm side, with attendant fan speed up). But when you anticipated the arrival of a projector, and if you're anything like me, want every thing to be just perfect, and this issue is niggling you, you need to sit back for a bit, chill out and think whether it really is such an issue for you. The PJ has a brill reputation for its picture quality, and you may find yourself trading off the noise issue for poorer picture quality/whatever, depending on your choice.

    When I got my PJ at first, I wished it was as quiet as a Sony HS1 or Philips Monroe, both of whom were on my shopping list at the time. My missus, on the other hand, dials out the sound of the projector quite easily, and for the 6 weeks or so that it was on our coffee table, the noise issue gradually dropped of my sensitivity horizon, as I fell more in love with seeing such a big image for movies.

    I'm not saying you shouldn't swap projector, only you can make the decision, but make sure that you're doing the right thing for you in the longer run, and not reacting to a short term niggle.

    I hope this is helpful and constructive.

    As evidence of my goodwill towards you, I overcame (after a considerable struggle ) the temptation to post a now customary diatribe aimed at Kramer for being the Forum's prime advocate for a noisy projector !!!:blush: - this is the usual standard of conversation between Kramer and I.

    Good luck,

    Sean G.
     
  5. Smurfin

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    My old Plus 1080 had a loud fan (certainly louder than the HS10 in eco mode) - when listening to movies late at night I had to increase the centre speaker volume so I could hear the voices.

    Whereas some people may say that "you get used to it after a while"....for me it got worse. As soon as I identified it as a problem, it nagged at me.

    :(
     
  6. meva

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    The NEC HT1000 is very quiet and I believe the PAL tearing has been fixed. Make sure you check for rainbows though.The Panasonic AE300 is supposed to be very quiet as well.
     
  7. Smurfin

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    Having heard the PTAE-300....its the quietest projector I've ever demo'd.
     
  8. John_N

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    Hi

    Thanks for the advice. After a weekend thinking on it and watching another few movies I have decided that I'm over-reacting and to keep the unit.

    I watched a whole movie today and it didn't annoy me at all. The solution I'm using at the moment is to turn on the "dynamic range compression" on my amp and then turn up the volume so that the quiet parts mask the projector without the noisy parts destroying my hearing! :)

    The picture is still FANTASTIC so I'm generally very happy.

    As an emergency measure, I've got the permission of 'her indoors' to build a round window in the wall (if necessary) and put the projector behind it (behind glass). This will obviously be an emergency measure but I feel will yield more value long term than just throwing money at a more expensive unit.

    So - I can fall in love with my HS10 again...! :)

    Cheers
    John
     
  9. theritz

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    Hi John,

    Glad you're happier with your choice.

    If you're taking action to "hush" your projector, think carefully about the inlet/outlet fans on the front, as well as the air inlets on the bottom of the projector. IIRC any blocking of the inlets on the bottom can cause the HS10 to "cut out" - check on avsforums for more details. If you mount the projector close to a "window" in a hush box arrangement, you may run into difficulties with the fans of the front - if they can't intake enough air, or expel it freely, you may end up with heat build-up. Check the manual/whatever about this. If you can sort these issues out, check with a glass supplier about getting optical quality glass so as not to introduce any colouration/distortion into your image.


    Good luck,

    Sean G.
     
  10. WebLoader

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    Hi John

    I read your post earlier about watching mission impossible and finding the fan noise too much. I thought at the time that you seemed to be reacting rather hastily - dont take that as a criticism - i too spent the first couple of days with my hs10 wondering if i should have spent another £1k and got a 43" plasma, or another £3k and got a 50".

    I guess we all look for perfection - silent running, huge picture with mega contrast, pixel perfect detail etc, and the truth is it just isnt out there (hmmm, sounds like some dodgy sci-fi series ;-)

    i think one of the issues that you are having to deal with here is the fact that many of us like to watch a film where we can hear the dialogue at a reasonable volume, and then not have perforated eardrums when an action scene kicks in. Huge dynamic range is great, but it aint that practical for many people!.

    anyway, i am glad that you have found a setup that you can live with, i myself have spent today with a circular saw chasing out a slot wide enough to sink a DVI cable, power cable, sony multi connector and some 9 core cable (you never know what you might need it for)....its all nearly there now...

    cheers
     
  11. John_N

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    Yes I agree that things are a matter of compromise. Like I said, I went and listened to the HT1000 over the weekend and although it was quiet, it was also a lot dearer and I did see one or two rainbows so that knocked that on the head. I'm going to have to wait for 3 chip DLP I think before I go that route...

    With the dynamic range compressed, the sound is still plentifully dynamic enough for my liking. Part of my problem is the 4 huge floorstanding speakers that I have but with the dynamic range turned down the loud bits become more bearable and I can't hear it anymore.

    I watched another two movies and didn't notice it again so I think this solution works for me - I think MI2 was just very quiet in the dialogue parts and I didn't have the sound up loud enough.

    Next thing on the agenda is either a screen or the start of a HTPC build based around the case that is on this forum.

    I'll keep you posted.
     
  12. John_N

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    Hi Sean
    Thanks for the info regarding the hush box idea. Have you tried this out?

    The projector at the moment is on an outside facing wall.

    The idea at the moment is to basically construct a normal round window that would act as a feature in that room (and therefore not alienate potential future buyers of my house). But I will glaze the inside part and put the projector on the now outside 'window sill'. Then the outside part will have to be glazed with a plywood sheet leaving the projector sealed in the cavity. Air will be blown into the projector air intakes via ducting and the exhaust will be sucked via another duct out of the cavity. A further pair of ducts will provide heat exchange for the cavity itself and I will mount a temperature monitor in there so we can keep an eye on the temperature. Should be good in winter at least.
    My concern at the moment I guess is the humidity - I was wondering what would happen if I'm blowing in cool moist air (from a rainy day) into the projector....

    In the short term, I'm going to move the shelf the unit is mounted on (once my screen arrives) which puts it a bit higher up. I'll coat the top surface of the shelf with some sound deadening foam (suppliers anyone?) and rest the unit upside-down on that shelf with the lights sticking out over the edge. If I could get a big solid 'block' of foam I could carve out a C shape of foam maybe to sit over the unit (leaving clearance for airflow) and that might muffle it a bit in a temporary manner....
     
  13. theritz

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    Hi John,

    I haven't built a hush box, and considered siting the PJ in an adjacent room to my movie room, firing through a cut-out in the (partition) wall. I have shelved this plan as the throw distance of the projector would give an image that would be wider than the room !

    Quote:

    The projector at the moment is on an outside facing wall.

    The idea at the moment is to basically construct a normal round window that would act as a feature in that room (and therefore not alienate potential future buyers of my house). But I will glaze the inside part and put the projector on the now outside 'window sill'. Then the outside part will have to be glazed with a plywood sheet leaving the projector sealed in the cavity. Air will be blown into the projector air intakes via ducting and the exhaust will be sucked via another duct out of the cavity. A further pair of ducts will provide heat exchange for the cavity itself and I will mount a temperature monitor in there so we can keep an eye on the temperature. Should be good in winter at least.
    My concern at the moment I guess is the humidity - I was wondering what would happen if I'm blowing in cool moist air (from a rainy day) into the projector....
    End Quote.

    Do I understand the above to suggest that your projector would be in some kind of plywood box/cabinet on the wall actually outside your house firing in through a circular window in the wall ?? If this is so, I would seriously re-consider - apart from security concerns, I think you could face problems with condensation and humidity - you could have condensation building up inside the projector, and the notion of blowing moist air into it............. not something I would do in a million years.

    I reccommend that you check the manual carefully about operating conditions before contemplating this any further.

    Maybe others here will have an alternate view, and you might have better luck getting a wider response to the idea by posting a separate thread on "Hush Box Idea" or similar.

    All the best,


    Sean G.
     
  14. John_N

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    Hi

    Not exactly. More a kind of bespoke single storey extension at the side of the house made of brick exterior and insulated in the standard fashion. It would probably be thermostatically heated and ventilated via forced air exchange with the outside.

    At this stage I am wondering about the humidity content of the outside air and whether this cupboard sized extension should provide ducting directly into the PJ or whether I should just cool the air in this "micro room' and let the projector do it's thing independently. One option might be to mount an air conditioning unit in there to cool this "micro room". I have no concerns about security - that isn't an issue for me.

    Cheers
    John
     
  15. John_N

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    PS. I've just realised that my initial post missed out what I was actually thinking. Yes I did initially think about merely having a sheet of ply and housing the projector in the thickness of the house wall. But I decided it would get too cold in there and have problems with moisture as you point out. Therefore I have decided that a small "mini extension" might be better hence the rather confused nature of the posting.

    Never mind. .. :)

    Cheers
    J
     
  16. Technophobe

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    John

    This all sounds rather drastic!
    Can you vent it To/From the roof/floor space above the ceiling? I have my sharp 9000 in a small hush box mounted on the ceiling with two shower fan kits pushing and pulling air in the box. The actual fans are mounted well away in the loft area and are totally silent.
    A hush box has the advantage of you being able to filter the air supply to the box to keep the PJ dust and smoke free.
    It really does work a treat, this is my second PJ I've done this too. The first being a very loud Tosh MT1 vented in to the floor space above, with a baffle under the floor to prevent the hot exaust air being sucked back in again. It all took me less than a day to knock up.

    Technophobe
     
  17. John_N

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    Thanks for the ideas. Yes I could try that but the problem is that the ceiling is smooth with plaster detailing and like I said the room is furnished more with antiques in mind than home cinema and 'she who must be obeyed' would not take kindly to a box of any kind ruining the ceiling - I've only managed a shelf with the projector on it by the skin of my teeth as it is!

    Hence the ideas involving round 'feature windows' that double as projector ports - I even thought about a stained glass window with the projector firing through a small clear section in it... You see what I'm up against? It's supposed to be invisible and inaudible... Difficult engineering constraints..! :)
     
  18. ebury

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    john,if the sound of the sonys fans is so bad as to spend more money to muffle the noise,why dont you just wait for the panasonic ae300 which is released in april?I do hope the noise isnt too loud..................i've just ordered a sony hs10 too!!!!(i'll tell anyone that notices the noise that its all part off the surround sound experience-ha,ha):devil:
     
  19. Kramer

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    OK, before this turns into mass hysteria :eek:

    The HS10 isn't a noisy PJ. It's about on a level with the AE-100 I owned previously - most of the time.

    I can't really see the AE-300 being any quieter than the AE-100 either, as they're almost identical in design & probably use the same/similiar fans.

    The Sony is acceptable (as was the Panasonic). It doesn't sound like a hairdryer etc.... I think John is particurarly sensitive to any extraneous noise (not having a go John;) ), & will have difficulty with any lamp driven PJ (or CRT - loads of fans in some of them buggers too :eek:).

    Granted, when the room is very warm, the resulting fan speed increase is irriating, & TBH, would be unacceptable for most, but this is a rare occurrence, & not insurmountable.

    Moral of the story:

    Demo ANY PJ first, for not only PQ (black level/res etc) but operating noise. ALL LCD PJs have cooling fans & make noise. Make sure this isn't an issue before purchase.

    BTW, John, hope you reach a situation where you're able to enjoy the brill picture of your HS10.

    ;)
     
  20. Smurfin

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    Apparently it is. When I demo'd the PTAE-300 I was sitting no more than 3 feet and I couldn't hear it unless I REALLY tried. My Z1 is quiet, but the 300 is quieter still.
     
  21. sbl

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    I sold my HS10 due to fan noise. But then I consider myself extremely sensitive to all kinds of fan noise.. I even use a laptop just to avoid the fans in normal computers...

    I switched from the HS10 to the Yamaha LPX-500 (an OEM clone of the Epson TW-100). The picture is slightly better, and the fan is a bit quieter. Basically the mechanical sound from the HS10 is gone and all you hear is a slight wooooshing sound..
     
  22. John_N

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    Like I said. I don't actually mind the noise now that I've changed the dynamic range setting on my amplifier. I watched 2 additional movies and found them both hugely enjoyable. I didn't notice the projector noise. I then tried watching the quietest scene in MI2 using the new settings and I didn't find the projector noise half as bad. I think I overreacted due to the soundtrack being too quiet and also possibly not being used to the noise. I've also turned the radiator in the room down and this seems to have helped.

    I wouldn't recommend binning the HS10 just because of the fan noise. I did demo the HS10 but in a commercial environment you get more background noise (from the rest of the shop, air conditioning etc) than in my listening room which to be honest is PERFECTLY silent with NO noise.

    In the commercial environment I couldn't hear the projector and hence I realised I would have to have demos at home.. I will do that in future.

    I have heard that the AE300 panasonic is supposedly quieter but I don't want to get one because:
    I hear that the AE100 was "a pile of rubbish" (quote from several dealers)
    My panasonic video wasn't much good either.
    The picture quality on the AE300 isn't supposed to be as good as the HS10. Yes - it is cheaper. Yes it is a bit quieter. But I don't think it has the DVI port and for my application that is critical. I think the sony HS10 is still a damn fine projector and to be honest if I thought I could make a significant improvement even if meant spending another £1000 I would have done it - but I haven't seen another LCD unit that comes close. I'm steering clear of DLP after the rainbows I've seen on every unit I've looked at (including 6 segment colour wheels)....

    So. Yes I agree with Kramer. I might be very sensitive to the noise but I'm still finding it an enjoyable watch with the caveat that I've turned on the dynamic range compression of the amp and I'm watching the movie with the dialogue volume just that bit louder to make sure I can't hear the noise.

    It's surprising how much noise ANYTHING makes in my listening room.. I turned on a very quiet desk fan on it's slowest setting in my listening room and to be honest I could hear it very very clearly. I think I have a particularly quiet room. The HS10 doesn't really make much more noise than a desk fan on the quiet setting so let's not overreact...

    I'm a bit of a perfectionist and I like messing around with DIY and building projects so I might well end up making a seperate projector room. But this will at least be reusable for a different unit (which will probably not be silent either) and will be fun for me to do....

    Cheers
    J
     
  23. Marcus Wood

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    Smurfin, where did you demo the AE-300?
     
  24. Spacecat

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    apparently John the AE300 has VGA ,DVi ,component and svideo ports.
    According to Projector Central (who tend to be fence sitters in my experience) it has better contrast and colour rendition than the HS10 , it is much quieter quote ' it has the quietest fans of any LCD projector in its class', it has a 5000!! hour lamp life and doesnt require a special (at extra cost lead) to hook it up to a PC.

    Screen door is the same as the HS10 i.e. it has not got any!! and overall for DVD viewing (which is probably about 90% of what people do) they say it is a better picture than the HS10!!!
    And its $500 cheaper!!!!

    Just food for thought!!!!
     
  25. beta

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    John, are you sitting in front of the projector? I only hear it when I am in front of it, if I am behind it I can only hear it if I concentrate on it!

    you need an early sony CRT mate, get something like a 1031 you can line double and guess what, NO FANS! you can take the fans out and they champ on for years.

    Then again, you could get a sony 1292, put wings on your house, and people will wonder when the plane is going to take off ;)

    Personally I found the HS10 louder than the perceived loudness in the display room, but I also put that down to me repeatedly asking for the volume to be lowered as they wanted to blast me away with some new 7.1 system I couldnt afford after the projector. They may have been masking it.

    but also its about the same noise level as my 7 inch sony CRT so I guess you have to take it with a pinch of salt at times.
     

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