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serious question on servo 15 eric nic pedro please

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by stranger, May 8, 2002.

  1. stranger

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    i have wanted a servo 15 since i first felt one in r sounds in 1998. i can now just manage to afford one, my question is, my room is 12x12x9.5 feet, is the servo 15 feasible soundwise? thanks.
     
  2. jiml

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    One suggestion is to get a cardboard box the same size as the sub and check whether it will physically fit and if you are happy with the size in your room.

    I can't quite comprehend the "too loud" possibility as it does have a volume control.
     
  3. stranger

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    jiml thanks for that i did it first, its the sound performance in my room that i want to be clear about. if it wont be overkill at low volumes-ish i will go for it.
     
  4. General Skanky

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    My room is 12' x 11' and I now use two REL Q Bass subs to good effect. You can buy 2 x REL Q50 subs, brand new for £299 each at HiFi Confidential. This 'may' be a better solution.

    I'm not saying it is definately better than a single Servo, I know its reputation, but it's an alternative.

    As for performance, I think it'll be on a par. If you had a much bigger room, then you'd definately be going into Servo territory!
     
  5. stranger

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    thanks for the the sugestion general, i hav 2 paradigm pdr10s wired at hihgh and low level and just turn the c/overs to min. or max. and the line off for music/films etc. my plan is to leave the 10s at h/level and fronts set to large and have the servo at l/level for movies and tv.
     
  6. General Skanky

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    :D So where are you going to sit?:D
     
  7. stranger

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    in the hole thats left after i turn it up instead of down probably. actualy the 10s are completely out of sight in otherwise wasted space.
     
  8. Steve.EX

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    I use a pair of Servo's in a room 4 x 5m (12 x 15 ft approx) and have no complaints, in fact adding the second one did not seem like overkill in the slightest to me, i used to use 2 Rel Storms and 1 Servo but sold the Rel's and live happily with the 2 superior Servo's, for what it is worth with the exception of size it is not realistic to compare a Rel q100 etc to the Servo, think more Mirage bps400 or the large MK's for performance comparisons.


    Steve.
     
  9. Ian J

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    As none of the three that you aimed your question at have been around to answer allow me to read their minds.

    Eric would probably suggest a pair of Q50 from HiFi Confidential at £600 or a second hand pair of Q100 which would be about the same price failing which one Q100.

    Nic loves his Servos and would probably suggest that if that's the model that you want to go for it.

    Pedro - haven't a clue
     
  10. Nic Rhodes

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    It is much more complicated that size of sub and size of room. A good article and spreadsheet is at

    http://www.guidetohometheater.com/shownews.cgi?388

    The original article is by Russ Herschelmann and is good. Down load and use the spreadsheet.

    A room with all dimensions (L, W and D) the same is BAD. I.e. 12 x 12 x 12. Luckily you are not in that category. These dimensions gives the room it’s natural resonant frequencies. Yours are 47 and 59 Hz. This isn’t a bad situation to be in. Then depending on your seating position there will be peaks and troughs (double / triple etc). What you then need to do is avoid putting your seat in the peaks and troughs, particularly if they are double / triple (again a bad situation to be in). If you can manage this I think it will work really well. Don’t forget every room has loads of these ‘resonances’. This is quite normal. Look at your rooms resonance’s and then try the square box room. You will see fewer but higher peaks. This is what you want to avoid if possible. You are after as even a response as possible. This is where many go wrong big time and end up blaming the equipment. It is not the equipment but the room dimensions and listening position. Acoustics. Good info by Glenn on Tag web site, worth a visit and using the search engine.

    Have a play with the spreadsheet. I might still have the original articles somewhere if you need a copy. The thread on sub woofer measurements is also very interesting with some ‘practical’ examples and a lucky moderator (just jealous Jase!). Room dimensions make the most difference and there are some ‘magic’ ratios here. In your case the dimensions are fixed though. Listening position isn’t necessarily as is the sub positioning.

    Having done this it might indicate where any potential problems might be. Without your seating position I cannot be more accurate unfortunately. The best way is to try it and see. General S’s comments on dual subs are interesting here but you are a convert already. This method helps to balance the sound around the room to fill the troughs and flatten the peaks you will see in the graphs. We are not talking volume here but quality.

    Bass volume will be determined by the level you set the 0.1 channel at in relation to the other channels. This is normally done at 75dB. Many people actually promote 78dB as sounding better. This is what I use. This may sound a little odd but I actually think it may be countering the deficiency of the sound meter we all use at these bass frequency. Most of us use Radio shack sound meters whose performance isn’t brilliant in the bass department. I actually have three sound meters, they all read differently and vary according to the frequency being measured! Another can of worms I think……..3dB differnce between sound meters is common. Dooooooh.

    Most RS employees give very dodgy advice when it comes to subs and rooms. Treat everything with caution you hear there.

    Don’t forget positioning is all important here, if you have an ‘other ‘alf’ who wants the sub in the corner behind the sofa, you might have problems. Two smaller subs may then be a more domestically appealing solution then as recommended by General S (no offence meant to Mrs General). I think two subs is a great way forward for many who want better HC. Mind you the likes of M and K have pushed multiple subs for ages………………

    Don’t forget the Servo15 is VERY big and black. It will give you bass that you can feel and hear. It is quite an experience though

    Does RS have a similar sized demo room you could try?

    A three sub guy. My kind of non quiche eating real man. When I get my barn up and running I will try more subs for interest. Uncle Eric has wetted my appetite and I will have the room. (26 foot x 15 foot and just for music / AV!) Two small subs and one large one is actually are potentially very good set up to have. Even bass with real bass extension (sub 20Hz at real levels, low distortion). The only set up I think I would prefer is dual big ones! Current I am camped out in a bed room and don’t have anything set up. House moves, don’t you just love them……

    After you have done some preliminary calcs it may well be worth measuring your current room, as done in the other thread. Then it is time to take the plunge…….if all looks reasonable.
     
  11. Ian J

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    My mistake - they are all lurking now and judging by the length of Nic's tome he was busy writing when I said that no-one had answered.
     
  12. Nic Rhodes

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    Yes I would recommend them if they suit the situation but there are many good subs out there. I particularly like the idea of dual Q50s and dual baby Paradigm. Once in my life I was going to do dual Rel storms. Dual Martin Logans would be nice....

    single subs I love my Servos but Velodyne, B and W and many others do some great products, it is a pity that some expensive subs just don't deliver like 150 and 200 Rels. The St range is much better though, Rel doing with 9 inches what few others can do
     
  13. Nic Rhodes

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    I've been busy, not sleeping, and it often takes me a day to two to get around to answer at the moment. Appologies I am not as fast as I once was....... Now where did I leave that bed;)
     
  14. uncle eric

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    You ain't seen nothing yet as they say.
    I've recently been given the go ahead (and deposit) for a survey that I did some months ago. The client is a very wealthy guy who has a chain of fashion shops.
    The house (thats a laugh) is in a well known millionares row in London. Having met with David several times, I can confirm that the room, being built as we speak (to my spec) is at the rear of the house adjoining thier indoor swimming pool and games room (I know what you're thinking).

    In the past, I've taken the Michael out of (some) super expensive installs (justifyably in my view, search 'More Install Opinions' thread in General Chat) because things were happing such as nine feet wide perf screens being used with a 7" Sony D50 CRT, or uneven front speakers were used while daft sums of money (which should have been used to match the L/R channels) were instead used on a 4-5K Crestron in order to control little more than a VCR and DVD player. Oh, I forgot, volume up and down.

    My previous most expensive install was 30k. This one will be more than double that (Anthea Turners was 60k so these prices are not rare) but will not include a 7" Sony D50 as that one did. (Wonder if they told her that had actually been discontinued at the time of install).

    The PJ I will be using for this job is Barco Cine 9 (aka Cinemax).

    As we are talking about subs, I've just ordered the subs for this install and will be doing a Russ H on them and running them in when they arrive in mid July sometime. I'm going to use a three tier speaker system. For Sats front three will be M&K 5000's while sides and rear (read single rear) will be three M&K Professional MPS-1625 Tri-poles. These differ from the SS150's as they mostly resemble the S150 (five front drivers) but with two 3.25" mid-tweeters each side.

    I will be using Four Subs for the other two tiers. Pusing out the mid-lows will be a pair of Velodyne HGS 10 (10" Driver).
    The real (and I mean real) low end will come from a pair of Velodyne HGS 18 (18" Driver). These both use Servo systems and both have the identical 1250 Watt built in amp.
    For folks fond of figures, I can confirm that in tests (by a friend of mine in the states) the HGS 18 is fairly flat to a shirt fluttering 12.5Hz. Errr, I'd better hang that CRT well.

    With Spectres permission (and the clients) I'd like to post pic's (and notes) during various stages of install as I think this may be of interest to fellow forum members. Hopefully, It could also turn out to be the mother of all systems (in this country anyway).

    Pre-wiring and install begins in August more details to follow. Watch this space.

    Eric
    ps. Gordon, in case you're reading. The Eric Trade Mark has also been agreed and it will be a huge Spiderman mural behind the Studiotek 130.
     
  15. stranger

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    first, thanks to everyone for your informed replies. yesterday my local r/s could not locate a 15 for me any where and none in w/house. today i located one at liverpool, display unit. i bit the bullet and have just finished setting it up as per my earlier post, it is magic-a real iron fist in a quality velvet glove, its next to a/v rack facing me. and i am over the moon.
     
  16. Nic Rhodes

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    I think this sums it up well. I think I will steal this quote :D


    Servo technology. I would love to see the Velodyne 18 in action, I have consistently posted that this would be the upgrade to my Servo15s. They can only reach 14 Hz! The 10 is a small servo unit that I have suggested before. A pair of these would be awesome but I am more than happy with my Servos;) It sounds like this guy is getting some serious kit.
     
  17. stranger

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    nic, reading the u,s. reviews on the servo 15 they seem to reckon that its on a par withe velodyne 18 at least in the same ballpark for a lot less dollars-oh to do a review on two of each, that would be hi-fi heaven.
     
  18. Nic Rhodes

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    I haven't heard the 18 so can't comment directly but reading about it extensively I think it is the better sub. It is something like 6 x the price however and the difference may be on the small side, unlike the difference between a REL 150 and Servo15. Technically it looks excellent with even low distortion from memory. Considering how low a Servo15 is then this speaks wonders for Velodyne as sub manufacturers. I would certainly like to own one but my back statement came today:(

    I struggle to imagine 18 inch drive units. The 15 inch unit in the servo is 17.5 inches across the frame and looks huge! The much increase power I think is a major plus, 1200w is what serious subs use, I just play with my 2 x 450w!

    If I was designing a sub, high end, it would be like the Velodyne 18. Now I expect that if I could do that for £500 people would still complain.......;)

    For now I am more than happy with my Paradigms but recognise the quality of other subs.
     
  19. Samir

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    Hi Nic R, uncle Eric, Ian J, Steve EX and Stranger
    I wonder if you guys could help me. I've been reading the treads regarding the servo 15 with great interest & wonder if you could help with my dilema 2 subs or 1?
    I'm currently using a single paradigm PS 1000 & was thinking of upgrading to a servo but given the trouble that peole have encountered when trying to get hold of one from RS, I'm now thinking of adding a second Ps 1000, Which of these options do you think would sound better. I know that this down to personal taste but given the wealth of knowledge that you guys possess i would be greatful for any feedback.
    Room size= 4.5m x 5m

    As a new member of this forum I would just like to how enjoyable this forum is and boy does it make my nights at work pass much. more easily.

    Thanks Samir
     
  20. stranger

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    welcome samir, its over to the other guys though, im just a novice-who knows what sound hes after, good luck!
     
  21. Nic Rhodes

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    Samir

    see Daves (Orbital) post in the Richer Sounds thread. I think it gives you all you need. If you want any more, let us know.


    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=35987&referrerid=7278

    The bit you want is on page three.

    Dave uses PDR 10s but what is being applicable with PDR 10s, PS 1000, PW 2200 or the might Servo15s. The choice is down to personal circumstances.
     
  22. stranger

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    nic, now running the servo in, one question, is there any advantage in using the x30 ive got it direct at the moment, just wondering, as im happy discovering new depths-iyou can taste the bass. thanks for your help, ken.
     
  23. Nic Rhodes

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    Ken

    The supplies X 30 is a very transparent device, surprizingly so. There is also a high level box available (X 20?). From my tests there is little to tell the direct connection and the X 30 apart in listening tests when set up correctly. With one sub I would just use the connector direct to the 0.1 output of whatever receiver you use. Let the receiver do all the hard work in the digital domain. With two subs there MIGHT be some advantage in having a phase capability as well. This will depend on your room. I run the two subs from a single 0.1 connection but there is no reason why they could not go to the two X 30s (actually only one needed), letting the extra X 30 boxes do all the crossover bit with the processor set to no sub. I just find it simpler to let the digital filtering be done by the processor and ignore the X 30 despite it’s capabilities. One less box to worry about.

    The supplied creamy sub cable (7m) is a coax cable of decent construction and appears to work well enough.
     
  24. stranger

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    thanks nic, i'ii keep it direct, receiver is sonys str-va555es one letter different from the old one but a great mid range a/v amp. imo. ken
     
  25. Lowrider

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    Nic, guys,

    I filled the spreadsheet but have no clue what to think of it, can you please help me... :confused:

    Room Room Resonant
    Dim. Dim. Freq.
    Main Modes (cm) (meters) (Hz)
    Length 810,00 8,10 21,242
    Width 400,00 4,00 43,015
    Height 270,00 2,70 63,726


    Seating Seating
    Dis. Dis. Seating
    (cm) (meters) Position
    From Back Wall 380,00 3,80 4/9
    From Side Wall 200,00 2,00 1/2
    From Floor 120,00 1,20 4/9
     
  26. Lowrider

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    By the way, Pedro was in my house last month, and said "my" bass integrates very well, unlike his, even though he thinks his servo15 goes a little deeper...

    I have two REL Strata III, behind each front speaker...
     
  27. Nic Rhodes

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    I am working on an easy to follow explanation of the spreadsheet. Give me a day or so, haven't forgotton you but been away.....:cool:
     
  28. Guest

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    Hopefully, i will be able to get an audition of the
    Velodyne HGS-18 sub sometime this week....
    I'm throwing my hat into the ring for a new 'ball-breaker'
    Considering how much our friends
    over the pond like this brute, i'm quite looking forward to it...

    I'll let you know my thoughts when i've heard it...
     
  29. Nic Rhodes

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    Envious. I wondered why you were selling your Subs.:)
     
  30. stranger

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    adzman, don't post a good report, i'm running two overdrafts after getting two pdr 10s and a servo 15 and am reviewing a dynaudio centre at home over the weekend-you guys are better salesmen than reveiwers, probably more honest.ken:)
     

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