SDI and DVI?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by keyser, Nov 28, 2002.

  1. keyser

    keyser
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    Can someone explain the two types to me and their compatibility.
    Can a SDI modded DVD player be connected to DVI?
     
  2. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    They are incompatible formats. There is also more than one type of DVI.....

    If you do a search for posts by Nic Rhodes I think he did a good one on the two interfaces exlaining what they are etc.

    Gordon
     
  3. keyser

    keyser
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    Thanks. I´ve done a bit of reading.
    Can DVD players not be hacked for DVI output, which could be progressive opposed to SDI´s inerlaced only?
    Are there any plans by any companies to release players with DVI outputs, or is that a strict no no because of copy right issues. Since no decent plasmas have DCDi, I figure the best way would be to have the dcdi done within the player and output digitally via DVI??

    Gordon, do any deinterlacers do as good as dcdi onthe american flag test, or are they in a class of their own?
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The flag scene on sage chipped units has less jaggie edges, that's true. However it does this at expense of detail to my eyes. So there is a trade off.

    I'm sure there are units that offer superior video de-interlacing but they cost substantially more than a dcdi sage chipped product. The new products form KeyDigital and Immersive and eventually TAW should be interesting to view for non-sage alternatives.

    I'm sure someone will do a DVI outputting progressive scan mod board for DVD players at some point. Manufacturers are not allowed to build units with digital video outputs like sdi or dvi for copy protection reasons.

    Gordon
     
  5. Charlie Whitehouse

    Charlie Whitehouse
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    Unless their name is Theta, when they seem to be able to ignore the rules and produce their own SDI output for their DVD players! :blush:
     
  6. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    DVI without copy protection is not allowed under the CSS licence, to which all reputable dvd player manufacturers must sign up in order to get DVD chipsets. In the scheme of things it is pretty much a hanging offence to incorporate this in a DVD player.

    In my opinion it would be technically quite difficult to perform an aftermarket hack on a DVD player to incorporate DVI.

    DVI with HDCP (high definition content protection) is in principle allowed. You might expect to see a few players with this output appearing next year, mainly in the US market, because DVI/HDCP is mandated for HDTV set top boxes.

    Sage's DCDi is only of use when replaying material shot in video format - most movies are not and then the technique is irrelevant. Industry opinions that I have seen would suggest the Silicon Image part is just a little bit better for movies, in that it doesn't get caught out as often as the Sage solution.

    HTH,

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  7. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Some good advice above.

    Nic Rhodes post is in here

    but is now Number 3 rather than the original post it was! I have no idea why

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=13227&referrerid=15820

    Re after market mods for DVD players.

    SDI is just about possible (for some players only) but IT AIN'T EASY, re DVI I would forget those ideas.

    Re SDI modes, be very careful, there are many idiots out there claiming some can be done when they CAN'T!!:(
     
  8. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Charlie,

    I never realised Theta did their own. I thought it was an aftermarket unit from Immersive or Vigatec like on the Meridian800.

    JohnD: DVI with HDCP. Would I be correct in thinking that non HDCP encoded software would be output as plain jane DVI-D. In whcih case would all current software not be copieable to a high standard. Will they allow this?

    Keyser: If you are choosing a unit with DVI-D inputs (~for your display device) you should make sure it is upgradeable to HDCP spec as some are not.

    Gordon
     
  9. keyser

    keyser
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    Many thanks.

    John dawson,

    you say that the industry opinions say that the silicone image is slightly better than the faroudja for movies, are you refering to the hometheaterhifi secrets benchmark? Because both faroudja and silicone images have released new chips since then and maybe they fair differently now (faroudja have this TrueLife thing)???

    Gordon,

    1.The keydigital plug-in card is uppgradeable to hdcp isn´t it(don´t know what the d means in DVI-d, I´m planning on either buying a 43"pio plasma now, or wait for their next generation)?

    2. DCDi makes the image softer, but doesn´t TrueLife make the image sharper(maybe you can get less jaggies without lossing detail that way?)

    I hear noone talking of the Faroudja native rate series.. do they cost an insane mount of money(I can see no SDI or DVI inputs/outputs on them)?

    3. Could you tell me what the keydigital card is likely to do to improve the image? "Audio propagation delay compensation".. whats that, I´m guessing it cures lip sync problems but only for the plasmas onboard speakers?
     
  10. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    Hi Gordon,

    Ref HDCP being applied to a compliant DVD player's DVI output - this would apply to any DVDs that engage MV protection in the analogue domain - i.e. just about all of them. The HDCP copy protection is employed at the point of transmission from the player and is not encoded into the discs - it just needs to be activated by the relevant flag on the disc AFAIK.

    As to new deinterlacing chips from Silicon Image - not as far as I know, though the 504 is replacing the 503 they perform very similarly. Can't speak for Sage but will look it up when I get a moment - they are awfully good at market speak though :)

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  11. EvilMudge

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    DVI

    Keyser,
    DVI-D is a digital transmission standard using a DVI connector.
    DVI-A is the analogue equivalent, and technically all outputs using a DVI connector must feature both, or at least have the capability to transmit both.

    JD,
    How willing are Arcam to build a completely modular DVD player? Will we ever see one from your company that has the video chain split up into seperate boards so that if one wanted to, they could remove all the analogue stages and go for a completely digital output? I know this sounds like to very bizarre idea and may not even be economically viable, but it would be a useful product.
     
  12. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    Every DVD player we ever built is already effectively modular in the way you describe :)

    However there are copy protection rules and the like that would in practice get in the way of implementing what you want - and also the issue of whether there is or ever would be a market for this.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  13. keyser

    keyser
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    Can anyone answer my questions :) and I also have another one, the panasonic 5series have more grey levels if you connect DVI, why is that? Does DVI (which is only available from a pc dvd right?) have any pq advantages over SDI?
     
  14. cybersoga

    cybersoga
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    This is just rediculus, who in their right mind is going to use DVI output to make a copy? It's much easier to rip a DVD strait from the disc than it is to record the video via any interface, so why do they still have a requirement for copy protection on video outputs on DVD players? Do you see this being releaxed at any time in the future because it's obviously stopping us viewing DVD in the best way possible and hindering technological advancement.
     
  15. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    It is certainly difficult to make a copy of the DVI signal - it is very fast :)

    However you are, with respect, being naive about this. Just because you can rip some DVDs because somebody hacked a key does not mean that the casual user will be allowed to copy - the material is copyright and not yours to copy.

    The content owners' industry game plan is, frankly, to control all outputs and to prevent, or at least control, all copying in the future - you ain't seen nothing yet, as they say. There is absolutely no chance of the current restrictions being relaxed.

    This is of course well beyond the control of the hardware makers, so please don't rant at us :)

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  16. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Keyser:
    1: Yes it is HDCP compliant
    2: Well I'll have to see how true-life works in practice in comparison with its competitors
    3: Hopefully the KeyDigital card will improve the image by doing de-interlacing adn scaling to a higher level than before. I'd expect they will also treat incoming component or digital signals correctly and apply accurate colour decoding and comb filtering where appropriate to get the most accurate, least artifact ridden image on screen regardless of the incoming signal standard. That's what I am hoping for and I guess waht every scaler manufacturer is hoping to achieve.

    Audio propoagtion stuff is time dealy to sync audio and video

    Gordon
     
  17. keyser

    keyser
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    Thanks Gordon,

    Audio propoagtion only works for either the plasmas inbuilt speakers or can you loop the DVD and connect it to an amp(would have to buy more of expensive digital coax cables).. so the plug-in card will work kinda like master audio delay?

    So the plug in card is hopefully a very good deinterlacer and scaler and doesn´t have any added picture "enhancers" like say DVDi and TrueLife?
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    According to specs the unit has audio outputs of analogue left/right and PCM. All of them delayed to sync video to audio. This can then be fed to external amp.

    I'm trying to decide whether to get a 503 or 433 for myself. Anyone got a 503mxe near Glasgow I can look at?

    Gordon
     
  19. cybersoga

    cybersoga
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    Maybe I was being a bit naive, I understand that the content owners are going to do everything they can to stop copying, it wouldn't be a good thing for the industry if every tom dick and harry could copy a dvd with a consumer recording device.
    But what's the situation with RGB via scart? How come every player has it, and there isn't any copy protection? As you probably know, it's possible to convert RGB into s-video or composite, infact the playstation 2 had it disabled because somone made a cheap RGB to composite adapter cable.
     
  20. keyser

    keyser
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    Gordon,

    Does the fact the the panasonics have much better contrast and blacker blacks not bother you any when you buy a Pioneer?

    Is there anyway to get an all digital path (DVI-SDI) and have DCDi and TrueLife pq "enhancers" on the image?
     
  21. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    Cybersoga -

    There absolutely is copy protection on RGBS and the other analogue video outputs of a DVD player, courtesy of Macrovision. It is mandatory to include this in all players and is part of the CSS licence. By law all VCRs must have a circuit sensitive to the Macrovision signals built in to them so that the attempted copy is unwatchable. MV aims to own patents to all circuits designed to circumvent MV signals, so it can sue people selling such devices. It doesn't always do this, but it can certainly do so if the problem gets serious. BTW it is not mandatory for the content owners to switch on MV in the player's video encoder and some discs are missing this flag, possibly to avoid paying MV the fee for that disc, or because someone goofed. This included a recent blockbuster (was it LOTR?) IIRC.

    Sky also can put the MV signals on its STB outputs. I understand it usually only does this for certain movies and pay per view items however. In principle it could put it on all TV signals if it so desired.

    I hope this clarifies matters.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  22. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Keyser,

    As the Key Digital distributor I have to have a plasma for testing the cards when they start shipping. So I have no choice. Having said that you still seem to be stuck in a mindthought that says specs mean all.... The amount of pixels, lightoutput, contrast ratio are not the be all and end all of picture fidelity.

    Look for posts by MrD about contrast ratio to understand. The ability to show tiny graduaitons of shades of grey or colour as equally important. Primary colour fidelity might also be important. The ability to reduce de-interlacing and scaling artifacts might be important too....I am buying a Pioneer as I have to. I intend to make it sing!

    Gordon
     
  23. cybersoga

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    I had a think and I just realised that I was kinda talking crap, for RGBS to work it has to use the sync from the composite video signal, which also carries the macrovision, so in fact there is macrovision on RGBS. Thanks for your time John, I needed to get my head strait over this!
     
  24. keyser

    keyser
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    Gordon,

    It´s just that most if not all of the reviews on the net seem to confirm these specs look better in the real world. That the blacks are blacker on the panny´s and therefore more depth in the image, and because of this it shows more shades of grey(while the pio doesn´t display the deepest greys?)(and specswise the panny has more greys :), can´t remember the numbers, 1024 vs something).

    Anyways, I´m excited to hear how the keydigital card will work on your pio and I do hope it will shine:), as I want I pio more than a panasonic(I´ve always liked pioneer)...
     

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