Screen for white but dark room (TW9400)

MasterC

Standard Member
Hello guys

I'm new to this forum, so bear with me if I'm putting this is the hopefully right place.

I have decided to invest in a projector for watching film and series. I have by that placed an order for an Epson TW9400, which should be a very good projector, before you invest in a lot more in a native 4K projector. I come from a 65" Sony AF8 OLED, but I wanted a larger screen for watching things that isn't regularly flow TV.

Right now I have a test setup installed, an Elite Screen 150" (I don't know the material or model, but it is a white screen) and a Panasonic PT-VZ580.
With this setup I can conclude that I can fit a 120" 16:9 screen right between my front speakers, and have therefore narrowed the picture down to approximately that size.

My real question, or need of help is to choose the right screen for my Livingroom. As you can se on the pictures, I do have white walls and floor and seeling that unfortunately is quite a bit reflective. But that is the environment, and I'm not going to paint or treat the wall, seeling or floor, so I'm looking for a screen that will performe the best in these environments. I have been researching for a while, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a grey-ish solution sounds like the optimal choice for my room. I believe that you can get a grey screen, which is ALR and not. Do I need an ALR screen when I'm have a very minimum light from the outside coming in to the room - it is not blacked out, but almost, so the problem should "only" be the shine that the walls, seeling and floor is passing. So, what would you guys recommend suiting the room?
Oh and it has to be a electric rolldown screen, because of the TV is hanging behind the screen. I believe that is have to be those so called tab-tension?

A side question is about the format - should I go for a Cinema Scope ratio, or stay with 16:9? Most of my film will be films bought from Apple Movies, which is 4K/HDR most of them, and I believe most of them, and future once is in widescreen. On the other hand, series of Netflix and so on is mostly 16:9.
I'm think that buying in Cinema Scope ratio, I will get the best movie experience, and accept a smaller picture when watching series and get the black bars on 16:9 in the sides instead of getting black bars on the top and bottom watching movies?

Budget vice I'm thinking around 1.000-1.200€ maybe a little more, but not in the neighborhood of the Stewart screens.

Thank you on advance!
//Chris
IMG_3609.JPEGIMG_3610.JPEGIMG_3611.JPEGIMG_3612.JPEGIMG_3613.JPEGIMG_3614.JPEGIMG_3615.JPEGRoom.png
 
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alebonau

Well-known Member
hi Chris, not sure pricing where you are but I dont think budget would buy a decent ALR screen for the kind of size looking for. the decent ones are quite expensive !

as to screen size ? what is motivating the change ? is it to get rid of the motorised one for a fixed one ?

as motorised looks like you have maxed out the space ?

a screen in my opinion is just a canvas to portray image. it can be any size that can fit in. you can only display image that fits.

whether 16:9 or scope you are either way going to end up with back bars !

from what i can see your speakers are what are limiting you in what image can portray ?

you can display an image above where speakers are or in between them. your choice :)

personally if i had a setup like this ... id keep it for the minute. get the projector and play around. enlarge the image as much as can do for the space have and see what prefer...

then decide what screen to get.

re room. what stopping you with treatments. trust me when i ask question i am asking it from perspective of a lounge room setup myself and know just what are limitations in my case with regards having a typical lounge room with no inclination to turn it into a black hole light sucking theatre or anything :)

but if there are no such restrictions ....very simply with even black stick on(or stuck on) velvet(every low cost affordable solution) that can buy from habidashery. you'd have significant gains with ceiling and side walls treated for say 1m from the screen. some people have draw back curtains / blinds. I have to ask the question as room is begging for it :D if want to optimise the projection setup. but also totally understand if homely surrounds or other limitations prohibit :)
 

MasterC

Standard Member
Hello alebonau

I know that's not a whole lot, but this is my entry to the projector movie world, and if I'm getting totally hooked on the concept I could in the future take the leap of faith an go native 4K, but for now I just want to get the best experience with what I have within a reason and since it's not a dedicated "bat cave" home theater (as I have noticed you call it in here, hehe), I'm not planning to going full mayhem.

The screen and projector that I have installed for now is something I have borrowed, so I could decide if I really needed a projector, and I could conclude that I couldn't live without one, hehe. I still need a electrical screen as my TV is right behind it.
I actually have plans to change the speakers for the DALI Oberon, which is approximately 100 mm. shorter then the Lektor which is in the picture, so the picture could actually be a little bigger.
I have attached a quick drawing, and I think that I actually could get a 127" 2.35:1 with the smaller speakers though.

I agree with you, the screen is just a material to show the picture on, but since I'm not going to paint or mask the room I'm looking for a screen to minimize the glow thrown out to the surroundings. I should maybe say that I'm sitting dead center of the screen with ta two person recliner.
I know that the best solution is to make treatments to the room, but I have decided not to do it for now.

//Chris

2351vs169.JPEGIMG_3532.JPEG
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
alr
 

Vila

Well-known Member
A few changes like a grey paint or darker colour on the side walls and a dark run on the floor below the screen would made good difference without turning the room into a ‘ bat cave.’

if your genuinely unwilling to make any changes to the room you might be better saving a bit of money on the projector going instead for something like the Epsom 7400 and trying to find an ‘ ambient light rejecting’ screen something like a REACT 3. This will be expensive in a larger pull down size.
 

MasterC

Standard Member
I tried to look up the Draper or Euroscreen which you are talking about, and that is going for 3.600€ or more. If it is the ALR way I have to go, I might have to stretch the budget a bit, but I didn't know they were so expensive.

Sorry if I'm wrong, but the ALR (ambient light rejection) it says in the name ambient light is rejected but as far as I understand it is the light on the screen which is being reflected out to the side and not light in the room which is interfering with the picture. Isn't there a material which is projecting the light directly forward since the seating position is almost center on? As mentioned before I'm completely new to this so I could be wrong.

What are there out in the marked of cheaper alternatives? If I have to save a bit, could I buy some kind of fixed frame and then mount a hinge so the screen could be pulled up in the seeling when not in use instead of a motorized version? Is that done before or is it a stupid idea?

Also it looks like the motorized Draper screen does not come in 2.35:1, or am I wrong? Is the 21:9 the same as 2.35:1 btw?

//Chris
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
^Based on your room conditions I concur with the rest that either a Grey or ALR screen is the way to go. I would Pm @Rickyj at Kalibrate and ask about his Diverse Screens, I switched to a fixed frame grey material 2.35:1 and frankly the image I am getting from the switch is astonishing, they do electric drop down as well as fixed in all the materials (white/grey/ALR) as well as doing a multi-aspect electric which is super cool.

 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
^Based on your room conditions I concur with the rest that either a Grey or ALR screen is the way to go. I would Pm @Rickyj at Kalibrate and ask about his Diverse Screens, I switched to a fixed frame grey material 2.35:1 and frankly the image I am getting from the switch is astonishing, they do electric drop down as well as fixed in all the materials (white/grey/ALR) as well as doing a multi-aspect electric which is super cool.



Wow! How much does that cost??
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
Wow! How much does that cost??

A quick PM to Ricky will answer that question.:smashin:

But if I didn’t have a dedicated room and of course had the funds (very important that part) I would have this screen for sure.
 

MasterC

Standard Member
Wow, that look pretty cool that screen! Sadly I think that this kind of screen is even more expensive, but I'm going to PM him to see what is possible and what is not.

Aren't the 2.35:1 they way to go if I mostly watch films from Apple Movies? Movies now a day is shot in the cinema scope right, so the 16:9 is mostly for series and YouTube? It would be better to accept the side bars and a smaller picture when watching this 16:9 content on a 2.35:1 screen than the other way around?

Alternatively I could go with a fixed screen and make some kind of way to raise the screen up when not used - haven't that been used before? The optimal solution will always be a fixed frame screen right? This will also be cheaper I can see, when you don't have to pay for the motorized aggregate.

//Chris
 

GrazzaB

Well-known Member
16:9 is still used for absolutely loads of films, it’s certainly not only 2.35:1 for films. Just as an example, all but the latest Jurassic Park films are 16:9, as is Saving Private Ryan, War Of The Worlds just to name a few Spielberg films!

To add I also use a fixed screen (16:9) and with some very cheap masking, 2.35:1 films look superb. It’s very easy to add masking with a fixed screen unlike pull down / electric screens. I add masking to the bottom which sits inside the frame, and means the black bars (which will very much be grey on a white screen) disappear adding real punch to the image. But I would agree that you should consider painting the walls a darker colour, and you get a genuinely huge improvement if you put a black rug in front of the screen. I moved from a grey carpet to a black rug and the contrast improvement in terms of light spill was enormous.

All the best with it
 
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Luminated67

Distinguished Member
The fixed frame offers the absolute flattest surface to project on to plus you can choose the size you want rather than preset sizes, this is something Ricky offers which is very similar with the big brands like Stewart.

I decided on the grey because I wanted to boost my black level and it definitely did the job.

I took this from John Wick shortly after putting it up.

 

alebonau

Well-known Member
Aren't the 2.35:1 they way to go if I mostly watch films from Apple Movies? Movies now a day is shot in the cinema scope right, so the 16:9 is mostly for series and YouTube? It would be better to accept the side bars and a smaller picture when watching this 16:9 content on a 2.35:1 screen than the other way around?

in your setup it looks to me you are width limited. ie your screen is as wide as can be... due to walls either side.

in these case its best to go in my opinion a 16:9 screen. since you can then go as large as possible in 16:9 and also as large and wide as possible in scope 2.35:1

if you go the other way around ... you will still get width the same as the 16:9 screen for scope but when you watch 16:9 its going to be a lot smaller since you have restricted your 16:9 screen by going a scope screen and which is a shame. there is a lot of stuff that is 16:9 particularly if streaming and a lot of films have 16:9 material baked in even if scope... example being eg tenet recently or movies all shot with imax camera eg joker and such..

in this particular setting if you go a 16:9 screen that fills the width available you will be able to maximise what you get for 16:9 and scope and have your cake and eat it too :D

ps if you are planning to run a TV behind then just go the motorised.. anything else like screens lifting and tilting up onto ceiling and all that is going to be a pretty odd ball arrangement. you'd have to beef up the fixed screen frame massively as most are designed to be mounted flat on a wall not lifting up and down and supporting their weight without twisting up on way through and such.
 
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MasterC

Standard Member
I think I might have to agree with you Graham and alebonau with the 16:9 ratio. Tonight I actually realized that my Apple TV4K, even if the film is widescreen, the picture projected is still a 16:9 picture in the meaning that the film itself is with bars, but the second row subtitles is beneath the movie picture. Am I not correct in that assumption? I believe most of you guys are running your movies from UHD players and not streaming like I do?

That looks really really stunning that picture Luminated67! But like like alebonau is saying, it might be a bad idea to hinge the fixed frame and raise it up in the seeling when not in use. The right solution must be a tab-tensioned rolling screen.

I might try to look for a used Draper ReAct 3.0 then. But if I some day choose to do some painting for darkening the room, is the screen then useless? Luminated I can see that your room is completely black but still use a grey screen, so I'm assuming that and ALR screen still is good if treatment is coming one day - and if so, it is not going to be totally black.

//Chris
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I think I might have to agree with you Graham and alebonau with the 16:9 ratio. Tonight I actually realized that my Apple TV4K, even if the film is widescreen, the picture projected is still a 16:9 picture in the meaning that the film itself is with bars, but the second row subtitles is beneath the movie picture. Am I not correct in that assumption? I believe most of you guys are running your movies from UHD players and not streaming like I do?

That looks really really stunning that picture Luminated67! But like like alebonau is saying, it might be a bad idea to hinge the fixed frame and raise it up in the seeling when not in use. The right solution must be a tab-tensioned rolling screen.

I might try to look for a used Draper ReAct 3.0 then. But if I some day choose to do some painting for darkening the room, is the screen then useless? Luminated I can see that your room is completely black but still use a grey screen, so I'm assuming that and ALR screen still is good if treatment is coming one day - and if so, it is not going to be totally black.

//Chris


The screen will still lower the black floor as its a darker screen and it will still come in use when you have a light on in the room or if its daytime and some light creeps into the room.

Basically, with the React, even in a pitch black room, you'll get similar advantages to a Grey screen like Luminated AND you can put on a lamp, a laptop, a side light, a hallway light and not have to close the door and hide away. It also has the advantage of.. u know.. as all ALR screens can do.. be used with lights on/daytime.

What you lose out in by doing with the react is
1. Viewing angles
2 Placement flexibility and chance of hot spotting
3 less bright screen (in exchange for better blacks)
4. less impressive whites

I think if u were using a high contrast JVC , I could understand maybe wanting to chase whites cos the blacks are going to be VERY good... but given ur not... most other PJs will probably end up looking prettier with a better black floor.


I am planning to treat my room all black but will still have a 110'' draper react 3.0 in the room because i like to be sociable and have a few lights on when entertaining people but my projector (which will then act as a TV) not look like utter crap.

I might also mount behind the PJ either a 77'' OLED or if the OLED ends up feeling too small, I'll move it to the kitchen and install a white screen so I get the best of both worlds and can pick which I want to use.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
I think I might have to agree with you Graham and alebonau with the 16:9 ratio. Tonight I actually realized that my Apple TV4K, even if the film is widescreen, the picture projected is still a 16:9 picture in the meaning that the film itself is with bars, but the second row subtitles is beneath the movie picture. Am I not correct in that assumption? I believe most of you guys are running your movies from UHD players and not streaming like I do?

I also think in your situation a 16:9 makes more sense, there was two reasons why I made the switch to CinemaScope, firstly was I almost always watch Bluray movies and the vast majority are in this format but because I have the Epson I am able to blank down to this aspect so even if a movie is 16:9 or dual aspect I can just keep it 2.35:1, the secondly because on my hipped ceiling the only way I could increase my width was to switch to a scope screen.

That looks really really stunning that picture Luminated67! But like like alebonau is saying, it might be a bad idea to hinge the fixed frame and raise it up in the seeling when not in use. The right solution must be a tab-tensioned rolling screen.

I might try to look for a used Draper ReAct 3.0 then. But if I some day choose to do some painting for darkening the room, is the screen then useless? Luminated I can see that your room is completely black but still use a grey screen, so I'm assuming that and ALR screen still is good if treatment is coming one day - and if so, it is not going to be totally black.

//Chris

Please do me a favour and PM Ricky, you might be pleasantly surprised by the price of the ALR electric roll down, especially compared to a Draper ReAct. I got a sample of both the ALR and Grey, if you intend to use with any lights on the ALR is far superior but you absolutely have to have to projector’s lens away from the screen more than 1.5 times the width of the screen (2.6m wide screen = 3.9m lens to screen). The reason I didn’t go for an ALR was simply it would be a waste as I never watch anything with the lights on and my room was treated, all I was after was a slight boost in black levels nothing more. If I hadn’t had a treated room but at some point I might go down that route then I would have got the ALR, it’s superior in a not ideal room and is just as good in a treated room plus if you have a wife and kids who also might watch with you then the occasional lights on viewing would be a bonus.

These images will show you what you can expect for your Epson with the right screen and calibrated by a pro like Gordon.

My Movie image collection

P.S. Some Blurays are better than others but ones worth checking out are Valerian and the city of thousand planets, Lucy, 1917, Hacksaw Ridge, Gemini Man, Alita Warrior Angel and any of The Hobbit movie.
 

DLxP

Well-known Member
Chris, I've just gone through exactly the same thought process, and also have a TW9400 and a white room.

After much consideration and research I went for a 125" 16:9 borderless, tab tension Diverse Screens ALR motorised screen from Ricky at Kalibrate.

I would unequivocally and very strongly recommend this screen - it's a revelation, and much cheaper than Draper screens. Seriously, it's possibly the best AV investment I've ever made. With a reasonable amount of ambient light it produces a picture of FALD LCD TV-like clarity and contrast. I switched to the ALR screen from a 65" C9 OLED, and I don't miss the OLED.

16:9 borderless is the way to go IMO. I was undecided for ages about this and very nearly went bordered 2.35.1. But now I've lived with this I realise I dodged a bullet. Much of my viewing is Netflix, streaming or 80s/early 90s action movies - so a lot of what I watch isn't scope. Also, the borderless ALR material is very dark grey on the borders, and in low light looks almost black; this essentially creates a dynamic moveable border. It's particularly good for IMAX/Nolan content, where aspect ratios switch during the movie.

I'll take some pictures tonight to give you an idea of how it looks in the dark. For now though, here are some ambient light pics I took while I was still setting things up.

1609167697123.png

1609167914186.png

1609167750417.png


This is more or less full daylight:

1609167837114.png
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
^Like you I was totally blown away by Ricky’s Diverse Screens, I know I seem to go on about Ricky’s screens since getting one but seriously the quality is way beyond its asking price and the image quality it produces is second to none. Apart from the better blacks I noticed the uniformity in the image especially when panning compared to my last screen.

I’ll say it again but if you don’t have a treated room that’s completely black an ALR screen is the way to go and yes it’s a bit more expensive but it’s the best money spent because it gives you that treated room experience without the hassle.

This is an uncropped image from The Hobbit movie series

E956415B-64CC-4F14-B8EC-EF6376CE8547.jpeg

And from Lucy
C0B9F6D1-468A-4415-9203-FF4537ACE471.jpeg

Again a 4K of 1917 Brilliant movie :love:
B842E873-3ED1-431F-A4AF-589A62CA105D.jpeg
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Chris, I've just gone through exactly the same thought process, and also have a TW9400 and a white room.

After much consideration and research I went for a 125" 16:9 borderless, tab tension Diverse Screens ALR motorised screen from Ricky at Kalibrate.

I would unequivocally and very strongly recommend this screen - it's a revelation, and much cheaper than Draper screens. Seriously, it's possibly the best AV investment I've ever made. With a reasonable amount of ambient light it produces a picture of FALD LCD TV-like clarity and contrast. I switched to the ALR screen from a 65" C9 OLED, and I don't miss the OLED.

16:9 borderless is the way to go IMO. I was undecided for ages about this and very nearly went bordered 2.35.1. But now I've lived with this I realise I dodged a bullet. Much of my viewing is Netflix, streaming or 80s/early 90s action movies - so a lot of what I watch isn't scope. Also, the borderless ALR material is very dark grey on the borders, and in low light looks almost black; this essentially creates a dynamic moveable border. It's particularly good for IMAX/Nolan content, where aspect ratios switch during the movie.

I'll take some pictures tonight to give you an idea of how it looks in the dark. For now though, here are some ambient light pics I took while I was still setting things up.

View attachment 1430882
View attachment 1430900
View attachment 1430883

This is more or less full daylight:

View attachment 1430896


I have a 110'' Draper React 3 but I am thinking I can probably fit a 125'' screen eventually instead.

My contact at draper is now gone so I might need to give Ricky a shout when the time comes.

Part of me really does want to try out a white screen in a treated room though and see which is better. I'd love to have a device which allows for 2 screens.. an ALR and a white screen. I think that would be so freaking cool.

I feel like a white screen in a treated room will be fantastic for 3D whilst the ALR will be good for the daytime and when entertaining guests. How thick is the top part of the screen? (the housing)

My drapers are pretty fat. If its thin, I wonder if I could combine two together with some decorative crap over the two of them and pick which I want based on the time of the day.
 

DLxP

Well-known Member
I have a 110'' Draper React 3 but I am thinking I can probably fit a 125'' screen eventually instead.

My contact at draper is now gone so I might need to give Ricky a shout when the time comes.

Part of me really does want to try out a white screen in a treated room though and see which is better. I'd love to have a device which allows for 2 screens.. an ALR and a white screen. I think that would be so freaking cool.

I feel like a white screen in a treated room will be fantastic for 3D whilst the ALR will be good for the daytime and when entertaining guests. How thick is the top part of the screen? (the housing)

My drapers are pretty fat. If its thin, I wonder if I could combine two together with some decorative crap over the two of them and pick which I want based on the time of the day.
The case size varies depending on screen size. A 125" screen would have the dimensions on the right:

1609170464278.png


It's possible to choose whether to have the screen roll from the front of from the back. So in theory one could have two back to back - one rolling from the back, one from the front.

I've had white screens in a treated room, used with the TW9300. I know a purist would probably prefer white, but from what I've experienced with the grey ALR screen, I would go for grey over white any day, even in a treated room. Ricky does a grey non-ALR material - the material @Luminated67 has I believe - which I'd choose over white for a dedicated/treated room.
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
@DLxP am I correct in thinking that the electric roll down Diverse screen can have different preset drop heights for different aspect ratios?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
The case size varies depending on screen size. A 125" screen would have the dimensions on the right:

View attachment 1430938

It's possible to choose whether to have the screen roll from the front of from the back. So in theory one could have two back to back - one rolling from the back, one from the front.

I've had white screens in a treated room, used with the TW9300. I know a purist would probably prefer white, but from what I've experienced with the grey ALR screen, I would go for grey over white any day, even in a treated room. Ricky does a grey non-ALR material - the material @Luminated67 has I believe - which I'd choose over white for a dedicated/treated room.


Thanks mate. I think if I went grey, I'd just go for ALR as for the small price premium the added versatility of ALR is so difficult to beat.

I basically never worry about time of day, closing the door... etc. Its a bonus if I close it of course but if someone opens the door, my heart doesn't drop as I am presented with a blown out mess on screen.

I guess this white itch I'll have to scratch. I can't quite bring myself to pony up the cash for one just to experiment though... I wonder if Ricky might have any white screens knocking about I can demo when the time comes. Or maybe I can pickup a cheap fixed on on the classifields to play within in the next 6 months.

I do agree in general.. after using the react, I don't think I can do without an ALR screen.
 

P Adams

Active Member
We can’t recommend a React 2.1 ALR borderless tab-tensioned screen enough from Ricky at Kalibrate. We’ve had it for 4 years, in a light peach coloured living room with a white ceiling but blackout curtains on three large windows / patio doors. Used it with a Sony HW55ES projector purchased with the screen and calibrated by Ricky. We tried an Epson 9400 at the start of the year and loved the image but could not get on with the motion and noise (when the faux 4K was selected) compared to the 1080p Sony. It was returned and we still love the Sony. Maybe change to a 4K projector in the future
 

DLxP

Well-known Member
@DLxP am I correct in thinking that the electric roll down Diverse screen can have different preset drop heights for different aspect ratios?
I don't think mine does, but I suspect it's an option. I've got a control box that accepts all sorts of inputs, but I only use the RF up/down command.

I've also discovered (just today!) that I can use Kodi to move the video position vertically vis-à-vis the black bars. That means I can move both black bars to the top for scope movies and benefit from the added contrast along the bottom provided by the black weight bar. It also means I'll be sitting in the perfect position for scope movies; my eyes will slightly over 1/3 up the screen height.

Here's a quick pic I took a moment ago to show its performance in the dark. Not the best, as it's from my phone, but you get the idea! It looks incredible in person and quite something to have in one's living room! As you can see, the upper part of the screen looks almost totally black. I can't wait to get it calibrated next month :D

1609183615819.png
 

Luminated67

Distinguished Member
^Calibration made a world of difference to mine but not only that it take a bit of time and playing around with your phone to get the best pics from them.

What I do is zoom in a little and touch (focus) on different parts of the phone screen to get the brightness balance as close as I can to what I see with my eyes, also set your phone’s screen brightness to the middle position.

Scenes where there’s fire or very bright light is the most difficult the capture faithfully, this one was particularly challenging.

226BB873-738A-4085-A997-EEFD2913D2D5.jpeg
 
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