Scottish IndyRef2

Should Scotland be an independent country?

  • Yes

    Votes: 59 43.7%
  • No

    Votes: 76 56.3%

  • Total voters
    135

GoingGoingGone

Distinguished Member
I don't understand, you said you'd ignore the rest of the post then query part of the rest of the post at the bottom about the Islands quitting? Surely you know Shetland is making noises about this already.
https://metro.co.uk/2020/09/11/shetland-islands-vote-in-favour-of-potential-independence-bid-
from-scotland-13259025/
Your post had more than just the stuff I quoted. That was what was ignored. Somewhat obvious I would have thought but it seems it must be said explicitly. If I'm ignoring something I'm not quoting it and conversely if I don't quote it I'm ignoring it.

Your Shetlands Islands vote was a vote in the council chamber not a vote by the population of the Shetland islands. Big difference. It was just 18 councillors not the 22,920 inhabitants.

Or to put it another way just 0.07% of the population voted in favour. The move would require a majority of the 22,920 inhabitants to vote in favour in an island-wide referendum.

On that basis of extremely tiny miniscule small minority votes being enough for independance I can confirm that my household has voted to go independent from both the UK and Scotland...;)
It is now in my opinion a sovereign nation and refuses to pay either Income Tax or Council Tax. An application for a seat at the U.N. has yet to receive a reply but we are expecting shortly to join the great community of nations in the U.N. Who knows, perhaps even on the Security Council :smashin:
 
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jockfedup

Banned
Just suppose we become independent, who is the mug who wants to be in charge when you look at our historic treatment of our bosses/heros.

Wallace - handed to the English by Scots
Mary - chased into the hands of Elizabeth by Scots
Charles I - here the Scots learned a lesson, we SOLD him to Cromwell

Jacobites also did us a pile of good. James II/VII chased out of country for being naughty, Bonnie Charlie inciting rebellion, and that did a lot for the highland clans slaughtered by Cumberland. Yes, the Stuarts really did us proud and increased the enmity between lowlanders and highlanders.

Best to consider the meat in the sandwich of the Auld Alliance has a habit of kicking both ways at once, and a lot harder than expected - Culloden and Waterloo anyone? Macron is finding out the hard way and we will if we keep Nicola. A grand sacrifice of her would probably bring some forgiveness.

Rampant nationalism can be admirable but it usually comes from the heart, not the head. There is a proverb that if you pull the tiger's tail you need a plan to deal with his teeth.

It may be a bitter pill to swallow, but 60% of our trade is with England. Some 10% or less of English trade is with us. We need them a hell of a lot more than they need us, and we forget that at our peril.
 
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GarryF

Well-known Member
Your post had more than just the stuff I quoted. That was what was ignored. Somewhat obvious I would have thought but it seems it must be said explicitly. If I'm ignoring something I'm not quoting it and conversely if I don't quote it I'm ignoring it.

Your Shetlands Islands vote was a vote in the council chamber not a vote by the population of the Shetland islands. Big difference. It was just 18 councillors not the 22,920 inhabitants.

Or to put it another way just 0.07% of the population voted in favour. The move would require a majority of the 22,920 inhabitants to vote in favour in an island-wide referendum.

On that basis of extremely tiny miniscule small minority votes being enough for independance I can confirm that my household has voted to go independent from both the UK and Scotland...;)
It is now in my opinion a sovereign nation and refuses to pay either Income Tax or Council Tax. An application for a seat at the U.N. has yet to receive a reply but we are expecting shortly to join the great community of nations in the U.N. Who knows, perhaps even on the Security Council :smashin:
Ok, so you ignore the vote of the democratically elected leaders of Shetland to pursue self determination, how can you then argue the opposite when it comes to Scotland.

I do like your explanation of Nationalism though, it quite sums up the mindset ;)
 

jockfedup

Banned
Come on folks. The Shetland situation is nothing more than a warning of what could happen if SNP insists on indy2 which would merely give every discontented part of Scotland the right to ask for its own regional indyref. Nicola has really not thought through the mad rush for indy, because if Shetland goes i.e. becomes crown dependency, then not only does Scotland lose the oil, the revenue goes to London. Good thinking Nicola.

SNP is completely blinkered and should really be called the Scottish Lemming Outrageous Party, or SLOP for short. Of course, SNP is so left wing it could always adopt the rouble and join that club.

The biggest argument against SNP is that they are so insulated from reality. If you are in a club and lose a vote you live with it. After all, if our ancestors had not been so crass 300 years ago and put us under the English yoke, we would not be having this discussion.

We are where we are and that is in a nation where we are only 8% of the population. It does not take a genius to realise that you either believe in democracy or you do not. It seems the SNP believes in it only when it suits SNP dogma and not otherwise. 2016 was a referendum of the UK. For whatever reason, the votes were disclosed by region. If the result had just been given as UK totals we would not be having this debate. The YES vote won and that is that. I do not say whether I like it or not, as that is my own opinion, and perhaps true democrats should simply shut up and accept it. Anyone who makes it an excuse to push their own agenda is, by definition, not a democrat - especially SNP.
 
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kav

Distinguished Member
I voted against independence in 2014, and against Brexit in 2016. However, democracy didn’t stop in 2016. I’m not sure which way I’d vote if there were another independence referendum tomorrow, but I fully support Scotland’s right to have one.
 

jockfedup

Banned
One thing SNP has not addressed, and never seems to have mentioned, is whether the public will be given a referendum on rejoining the EU. Being independent is one thing but we ought to know what is in store if we give it away to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, submitting to the ECJ and returning our waters to CFP. It would be interesting to know what the true SNP plan is, if they actually have one they can honestly share with us.

I mentioned elsewhere about fanatical nationalism coming from the heart rather than the head. I sincerely hope that if the SNP is successful in steering us to independence we can actually get rid of them if they do not come up to expectations. I am thinking of another nationalist party voted into power that could not be removed - it is not funny so beware of Adolf II.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Why not read Scotland's Future? The SNP have stated exactly what will happen.

More importantly, whereabouts in Scotland is Pollock?
 

kav

Distinguished Member
One thing SNP has not addressed, and never seems to have mentioned, is whether the public will be given a referendum on rejoining the EU. Being independent is one thing but we ought to know what is in store if we give it away to unelected bureaucrats in Brussels, submitting to the ECJ and returning our waters to CFP. It would be interesting to know what the true SNP plan is, if they actually have one they can honestly share with us.

I mentioned elsewhere about fanatical nationalism coming from the heart rather than the head. I sincerely hope that if the SNP is successful in steering us to independence we can actually get rid of them if they do not come up to expectations. I am thinking of another nationalist party voted into power that could not be removed - it is not funny so beware of Adolf II.
Does that not already exist in Scots legislation? I don't know the answer, but in Ireland for example, it's written into the constitution that changes to the constitution must be put to a referendum. If Scotland has such rules in place, then maybe there will be a referendum on EU membership. If not, it might be decided by MSPs.

Nonetheless, it's a bit of a foregone conclusion; well over 60% of Scotland wants to be in the EU - a referendum on membership wouldn't even be close.
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
Nonetheless, it's a bit of a foregone conclusion; well over 60% of Scotland wants to be in the EU - a referendum on membership wouldn't even be close.

Sorry, did they already have a speculative vote previously then? Or usual Poll result seeing as we all know how reliable polls are these days.

It was my understanding that the vote was for UK to leave EU. Its a totally different question if its an independent Scotland asking its people if they want to join EU, even if EU will be open to them joining (current unknown economic situation of an independent Scotland).
 

kav

Distinguished Member
Sorry, did they already have a speculative vote previously then? Or usual Poll result seeing as we all know how reliable polls are these days.

It was my understanding that the vote was for UK to leave EU. Its a totally different question if its an independent Scotland asking its people if they want to join EU, even if EU will be open to them joining (current unknown economic situation of an independent Scotland).
Fair point, perhaps my inference based on the 2016 results (that roughly two thirds of Scots voting not to leave the EU means that about as many would want to rejoin) is incorrect. I'm definitely interested to know how it would work in Scotland - would it be a public vote on EU membership or would it be a parliamentary decision.
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
Fair point, perhaps my inference based on the 2016 results (that roughly two thirds of Scots voting not to leave the EU means that about as many would want to rejoin) is incorrect. I'm definitely interested to know how it would work in Scotland - would it be a public vote on EU membership or would it be a parliamentary decision.

Scotland has to have a referendum to leave UK and if voting out, then another future referendum to see if its people want to join EU once an independent Scotland has settled into its new normal.

If I was Scottish, such a big move as joining EU should be made by its people in a referendum, not a few select MSP's. (similar to the Brexit question, but a legally binding referendum).

If it was just a trading block then yes, MSP's alone would be fine, but not joining an organisation where you have to cede Political, monetary and legal control/power over to another entity.
 
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IronGiant

Moderator
Alternately they could get two for the price of one, vote for a) re-join the EU (which requires leaving the UK) or b) remaining in the UK and hence staying out of the EU. That might be a bit too complex to get past the regulators though.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Pollock is a district in Glasgow.

There may be other Pollocks though ....
I thought it was called Pollok?

 
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GoingGoingGone

Distinguished Member
It wouldn't be the E.U. though (at least initially). An independant Scotland would more likely seek to join EFTA, a much easier prospect of success. Scotland would then join its nearest neighbour to the east and to the north.

Bring back the Stuarts and with a little bit of skullduggery there could be a unification of the Norwegian and Scots crowns....
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
It wouldn't be the E.U. though (at least initially). An independant Scotland would more likely seek to join EFTA, a much easier prospect of success. Scotland would then join its nearest neighbour to the east and to the north.

Bring back the Stuarts and with a little bit of skullduggery there could be a unification of the Norwegian and Scots crowns....

I newly Independent Shetland (to the North) might not want to join Scotland :D
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
You read an awful lot into the votes of 0.07% of its population...
However, mention Scotland joining with Norway and they would be in like a shot.
Norway-to-tap-oil-fund-to-buy-shetland-islands
Who knows they may even have enough dosh to buy Scotland too :smashin:

After all the decades certain Scots wanting Independence I can't see them letting anyone buy them :D

Who knows if people of Shetland have same view as their elected leaders. Our lot pre-Boris certainly didn't represent views of majority of electorate with our voting system.
 

GoingGoingGone

Distinguished Member
After all the decades certain Scots wanting Independence I can't see them letting anyone buy them :D

Who knows if people of Shetland have same view as their elected leaders. Our lot pre-Boris certainly didn't represent views of majority of electorate with our voting system.
Nobody knows.
So might be best for you and others to stop taking 0.07% of a population and running with it to extrapolate to >50%

Scotland especially in local elections doesn't have 'our voting system' by which you really mean your FPTP voting system. All purely Scottish elections use one form or another of PR not FPTP.
 

psikey

Distinguished Member
Nobody knows.
So might be best for you and others to stop taking 0.07% of a population and running with it to extrapolate to >50%

Scotland especially in local elections doesn't have 'our voting system' by which you really mean your FPTP voting system. All purely Scottish elections use one form or another of PR not FPTP.

Why? You seem to think its OK to speculate they wont. How many would need to vote in Shetland to not go route if Scots vote for independence and they want to be still be linked to UK in some form?

I'm all for Scots having their say and choosing to leave if that's the way it goes, but Shetland also has a right to choose too I'd say.
 

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