Scottish Independence: SNP to be given power to hold binding referendum

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by Rasczak, Jan 9, 2012.

  1. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    The last few years for the United Kingdom? Quite possibly:

    BBC News - Scotland referendum: Cabinet to discuss potential vote

    The cabinet will discuss today proposals to give the Scottish government the legal power to hold a binding referendum on independence.

    With an unpopular (north of the border) Conservative Government in Westminster, the Lib Dems seen as Tory puppets and Labour in a very weak position with an unelectable leader, there has never been a better time for the independence movement to achieve their goal.
     
  2. Pecker

    Pecker
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    It really is tosh.

    If the cabinet decided not to give the Scottish parliament the power, or only under cicrumstances with which a democratically elected Scottish parliament does not agree, and they went ahead anyway under their own terms and won the referendum, Scotland would become independent.

    Any waverers, or those who voted to stay in the UK but were pretty borderline, would have their minds made up for them that the English meant Scotland no good at all.

    A properly conducted free referendum which was ignored by parliament would do immense damage to our international reputation, and for what purpose? To keep Scotland in the UK when it didn't want to be?

    Anyone would think DC and chums wanted to do everything possible to force Scotland away.

    Steve W
     
  3. Wild Weasel

    Wild Weasel
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    Bang would go 41 Labour MPs and 11 Lib Dem MPs. All for the cost of a single Conservative MP.

    What's not for DC to like?
     
  4. GloopyJon

    GloopyJon
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    I find the whole Scottish independence issue pretty stupid (I am English). It's either motivated by money or simply by the Scots' hatred of the English. Neither is a good reason, and in the context of the EU it's all rather pointless anyway.

    As a conservative I should welcome it, but as a human being I see it as a manifestation of people's hatred and jealousy for each other, and therefore I don't like it.
     
  5. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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    Can we have a vote to ditch Scotland?
     
  6. Squiffy

    Squiffy
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    I think if Scotland did become independent, it would only be fair for England and the other constituent parts to have a similar vote whether to leave the UK.
     
  7. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Like Cornwall??
    :)
    Sidicks
     
  8. Dave

    Dave
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    The SNP will never call a referendum until they are sure they can win it.

    That's the thing with referendums.
     
  9. GasDad

    GasDad
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    That really is a foreign country - lovely - but foreign
     
  10. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    The SNP will pursue a two track policy. They want a three way referendum -stay part of the UK, devolution max or withdraw from the Union. The SNP knows that, even if they campaigh for indepedence, odds are the 'devolution max' option would win. But this would be a win for them anyway - Scotland would continue to become politically and economically seperate from the rest of the UK. In time, a second referendum would then lead Scotland to independence.

    Personally I don't see how the Union can be saved. But perhaps both England and Scotland would be better off apart?
     
  11. Squiffy

    Squiffy
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    I would like to see a vote across the whole uk for if that country should remain.

    And a tiny part of me hopes England would vote to go it alone...
     
  12. gibbsy

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    We Celts, pushed to the margins of Britannia by the invading barbarian Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes....................:nono:

    I think a totally independant Scotland will be bad for the UK. More devolved power is as far I think the majority of Scots will allow. Scotland, like Wales did not give the Tories a mandate to rule and have not for many many years. Under the Tories Wales suffered badly, as did Scotland. Not as bad now, Westminster does at least have to listen. Gone are the toothless Scottish and Welsh Offices. But full independance, hopefully no.

    Remember Treweryn. Coffiwch Dreweryn.
     
  13. Prasius

    Prasius
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    I think the whole situation is funny as hell. The SNP and the rabid wannabe Braveheart nationalists (who, I'm pretty sure are a minority..) have demanded a referendum for years. Now the Conservatives offer them a referendum on a plate, and they don't want it... yet. THAT is how seriously the SNP want independence it seems. They're like the LibDems..... bleat on about all the wonderful things they're going to do, and when their bluff is called... "ooh.. bugger".

    Ostensibly because Salmond said that he'd do it later, but from what I've read a few Scots have said its because the economic environment isn't right at the moment (Ha!), and the cynic/realist/chats with Scottish people I work with makes me think that they don't stand a hope in hell of winning an independence vote.

    If it wasn't for the fact that I think most Scots have got more sense, and know exactly what side their bread is buttered on (free prescriptions and free university education... that wouldn't last...), I'd suggest an English vote on Scottish Independence and tell them to sod off. But seeing that we can't even have an English Assembly to vote on English matters without the interference of the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish (Part tongue in cheek at the reasons for the creation of another expensive bit of UK Governance/Part genuine personal annoyance that the English aren't given the same rights as the other citizens of the Union), I guess we'll have to put up with whatever is decided on our behalf.

    As for Tories not having a "Mandate to Rule" in Scotland/Wales - Labour didn't have much of a "Mandate to Rule" England for much of their time in power; so I consider that argument tosh.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2012
  14. la gran siete

    la gran siete
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    Yes I can see more devolved power rather than full blown independence, which would be no bad thing.In any case I think Salmon knows he would never win a referendum , besides it would need to get past the HOC
     
  15. gibbsy

    gibbsy
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    In 1956, a private bill sponsored by Liverpool City Council was brought before Parliament to develop a water reservoir from the Tryweryn Valley. The development would include the flooding of Capel Celyn. By obtaining authority via an Act of Parliament, Liverpool City Council would not require planning consent from the relevant Welsh Local Authorities. This, together with the fact that the village was one of the last Welsh-only speaking communities, ensured that the proposals became deeply controversial. Thirty five out of thirty six Welsh Members of Parliament (MPs) opposed the bill (the other did not vote), but in 1957 it was passed. The members of the community waged an eight-year effort, ultimately unsuccessful, to prevent the destruction of their homes.

    When the valley was flooded in 1965, the village and its buildings, including the post office, the school, and a chapel with cemetery, were all lost. Twelve houses and farms were drowned, and 48 people of the 67 who lived in the valley lost their homes. In all some 800 acres of land were submerged. Llyn Celyn, otherwise known as the Tryweryn Reservoir, was formed. Many of the stones from the original chapel were re-used in the construction of the new Memorial Chapel.

    Coffiwch Dreweryn.

    This is one of the main reasons why I for one am glad of a Welsh Assembly. Never again will Westminster be allowed to ride rough shod over the feelings of the Welsh people. I dare say the majority of Scots feel the same. They don't want an independant Scotland, just a major say in the running of their own country.
     
  16. Cloverleaf

    Cloverleaf
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    I'm all for full Scottish independance.

    No more subsidising the Scots, plus without Scottish MPs, Labour would never win another election in England :clap:

    Oh, and the Welsh can ****** off as well if they want :smashin:
     
  17. Wild Weasel

    Wild Weasel
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    Sad, but it was hardly alone. The same thing happened to places in the Lake District, Northumbria, Scotland and Yorkshire. I can think of the village of West End in Yorkshire that was also drowned in the mid-60s to make Thruscross Reservoir to supply Bradford and Leeds. Back in 1995 the water was let out for maintenance on the dam and people could once again walk around the streets and church - even over the stone bridge.

    Well they won't want to stay in the EU then, since 75% of our laws come direct from Brussels and bypass parliament altogether.

    Oh wait, no the SNP do want Scotland stay in the EU and eventually move to the Euro.

    :facepalm: Oh dear. Can't square that circle.
     
  18. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Well I've started learning the language just in case, and I do have some bank notes issues by the Stannary Parliament...

    :hiya:
    Sidicks
     
  19. MikeTV

    MikeTV
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    I'm sick to death of all these democratically elected government thingies! They never seem to do what I want them to do.

    I know - let's go back to feudalism!! Who's with me?

    ;)
     
  20. Wild Weasel

    Wild Weasel
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    OK as long as I'm a Thane.
     
  21. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    The example you cite was one of multiple projects across the UK implemented for sound reasons. What you want here is a disprotionately more powerful voice for one part of the UK rather than another. You imply it would be fine for English villages to be flooded without full agreement but not Welsh ones.
     
  22. Sonic67

    Sonic67
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  23. Kebabhead

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    As this will impact on the UK, then clearly the whole of the UK should be able to vote not just the Scots
     
  24. Pecker

    Pecker
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    The whole 'celts' thing is a complete myth. But that's another discussion for another day. Which tribe did what and went where hundreds of years ago shouldn't be the basis for independence in the 21st century.

    Steve W
     
  25. EarthRod

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  26. kav

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    Living amongst them, I think that is fairly spot on. However I don't think they're a minority because the rest of the Scots "know what side their bread is buttered" but rather because a huge number simply don't give a toss.

    Don't get me wrong, there is an irrational hatred that runs deep in certain communities, and that's passed from parent to child as much as eye colour is. In the more...enlightened parts though, it's simply not an issue.

    Being from the ROI, I used to be supportive of Scottish independence, until I came to the conclusion that the two situations are so enormously different that they can't be validly compared. Scotland is a net beneficiary of England, and it's not like the Scottish people are being oppressed in any meaningful way nowadays. All in all, things seem to tick along nicely.

    I am ambivalent about it actually happening, but if it does, I am not confident that Salmond will actually know what to do with himself. I think he'll be like Inigo Montoya and his lifelong search for the six-fingered man who killed his father - once he killed the six-fingered man, he felt he had no purpose. ;)
     
  27. NewMan

    NewMan
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    Hello. My name is Alex Salmond. You opressed my people hundreds of years ago. Prepare to give us more generous payouts and have less say over how we spend it...
     
  28. Kebabhead

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    Did anyone see the Andrew Marr interview with David Cameron last Sunday when he said if Scotland went independant that would be the end of Britain nuclear deterrant

    Would than be in favour of the English or the Scots
     
  29. Ed Selley

    Ed Selley
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    I would hope that any settlement of independence would include such niceties as Scotland assuming sole responsibility for the obligations of its national bank?

    What I don't want to see is more "playing at independence." Scotland either governs and pays for itself with no say in the running of the UK "rump" or it doesn't.
     
  30. FZR400RRSP

    FZR400RRSP
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    As a Scot, I fear you're right with your second point.
    In fact, tragically, I know you're right with your second point.
    Far too many would vote for it, purely and simply for the "bloody English" stance, no thought applied to it at all.
     

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