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Scaling artifacts in Denon Hi-def demo ?

BruceH

Active Member
Enjoyed the show today, but had a curiosity question about something I saw (or thought I saw) in the denon demo.

obviously denon are demoing sound not vision, but anyway.

They were running a 1080p ? projector, on the scene of base jumpers jumping into a canyon, during the section focussing on the free fall of one jumper, then picture seemed to be jumping all over the place.

Was that:
a) Jumpy camera work due to environment
b) scaling artifacts caused by scaling the image up to 1080 for the projector ?

Or should I have just been listening and not watching !!


Was quite excited to see a few people running Denon 4306 amps in their demos and I've one in my lounge !!

Yay,
Bruce.
 

tryingtimes

Well-known Member
Apparently all 3 of the Projection Design 1080 projectors suffered from this problem. I only saw it in the denon room and the PD room - the what-hifi room looked flawless. (although I was right at the back).
It was like a vertical tear in the image. Apparently it was a Texas Instruments issue with an update expected.
The Sim2 1080 suffered some similar motion problems, it was almost unwatchable in some scenes. they were mentioning it to anybody that entered the room.
 

BruceH

Active Member
I can never quite understand why these companies are in such a rush to demo new products that they demo them with glaring faults.

How can that be good publicity for their products.

"It's pre-production"
"This problem won't be in the production units"

never quite cuts it with me.
If it's not ready, don't show it !!!

Just my 2c worth!
 

Steve Stifler

Well-known Member
Saw the PD in Denon room - visible tearing in the Robots clip. Sat near the PJ and it was very hot - had to move. It was quite impressive apart from that. Not sure how much the flagship Denon DVD helped some of he DVD picture quality. Roger Batchelor was his usual informative self, giving a good demo of the internet ready receiver. It was very flexible.

I thought the Meridian room was good -all digital sound and vision.Didn't find a price for the 1080P scaler they auditioned, not the DILA. They were brave to show a grainey clip from Top Gun.

The show sponsor's demo room was good, but the Robbie Williams 1080P clip was a poor choice to show off the pq abilities. All close up stuff, and not enough to see how good it was on distance detail.

The SIM2 1808 was very smooth looking. There was a media PC on demo from Entertainment PC. Not sure what front end it was, but the it may have been Theatertek. Looked quite impressive. Others firms used UVEMs for source HD material.

Sky HD - what a let down. They covered the back of the set top box, yet its been in a magazine in another post. Some of the interlacing on the Newcastle footie shots was awful. Not sure if that was the display or the source. No idea on when and how much. Something to be announced in about 7 weeks. So no launch anytime soon then.

Runco had a mega buck pj, but Dukes of Hazzard looked nothing special.
 

skywalker1010

Active Member
BruceH said:
"It's pre-production"
"This problem won't be in the production units"

I have to agree. I thought the SIM2 excuses were a real disapointment. I normally make a point of seeing their demos because they are a benchmark.

But this year Projection Design, totally blew away any SIM2 on show. For SIM2 to say that their demo was to show that 720 looks as good as 1080 on their projector, just highlighted how sub standard their 1080 actually was.

The C3X was a nice picture and to my eyes better than the 3000 pre-production. But the Projection Design 1080P was simply in another league visually. :smashin:
 

sandstheman

Active Member
Was most disappointed by the Sky HD 'demo' if it could even be called a demo, because they were just playing the HD clips from their website through a laptop, and they were poor clips at that as well, if thats a sign of whats to come i don't think i'll be holding my breath
 

AD Roser

Active Member
skywalker1010 said:
I have to agree. I thought the SIM2 excuses were a real disapointment. I normally make a point of seeing their demos because they are a benchmark.

But this year Projection Design, totally blew away any SIM2 on show. For SIM2 to say that their demo was to show that 720 looks as good as 1080 on their projector, just highlighted how sub standard their 1080 actually was.

The C3X was a nice picture and to my eyes better than the 3000 pre-production. But the Projection Design 1080P was simply in another league visually. :smashin:

I don't believe we ever said that the 720 display is as good as the 1080 - our point was that both formats deliver fantastic images the choice of course is yours. Showing a prototype is always a risk but as there is such a huge gap between this public show and the next one I felt it was right for a "work in progress -sneek peek" but as we know you can't please everybody.

I am fully aware that the 1080 was not up to SIM2's normal high standard.

The response at the show was fantastic and the sales of the C3X just keep on growing - we lost count of the visitors telling us "Best Picture at the show" :D

I saw the PD display and I do concur that their uint was better than ours - for the moment that is :devil:
 

tryingtimes

Well-known Member
Well I certainly appreciated the chance to see them both side-by-side.
It became clear that the colours on the C3X were better than any 1-chip I've seen.

I'm not too sure it was a good idea from your point of view though as people were inevitable going to reach the conclusion that they would want a 3-chip 1080 :devil:

I just want to get my hands on that HD version of Shakespeare in Love:hiya:
 

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I'd like to point out that the PD 1080P unit didn't work properly either. It had motion artefacts a plenty if you chose to sit around long enough to wait for them to happen(their excuse was to blame someone else's box). Whole sections of the image would stay stationary during motion, then suddenly snap to their correct location in the image. This seemed to happen with DVD rather than with the HD clip of Herbie I kept on seeing in the RGB Smarthome stand. The SIM2 was similarily afflicted so it' most likely a TI issue and AlanR suggested this was a correct analysis.

I am sure that when both products come to fruition they'll be great, but don't kid yourself that the PD was sweetness and light...it wasnt.

Of the other big hitters....well I was stunned that Runco managed to make Gladiator look like a video tape on such an expensive projection system. really soft, unpleasant, noisy image.

When the 1080P units worked they looked good. The C3X looked good too. I even thought the little Runco upstairs looked sweet....just it's an insane amount of money for what it is.
 

tryingtimes

Well-known Member
Hi Gordon
While I was in the PD room, Kristian (I think he's their software engineer from reading up on other forums) said it was a TI issue.
It was on ALL types of material - HD included (but as you say, I didn't see it on the Herbie clip). They tried to connect direct in the Denon room to avoid it, but it was still there so they went back to connecting through Crystalio II. (this was on Friday morning)

The artifact I saw was almost a vertical split - one half went with the motion, the other half froze and then jumped to catch up.

It was slightly different on the SIM2 demo - more frequent and not so much of a split - If I hadn't seen the PD first, I would have thought the SIM2 was just poorly deinterlacing. I can't remember now whether they were feeding it 1080i or p.

I didn't spend long enough in the small Runco room - a few have commented on the pq, so I wish I had.
I really like the little ProjectionDesign Action 720 at 3425 GBP - I think they'll do well with it.

I don't know what it was about the SIM2 1080 but I didn't like it - it just seemed to be fighting with the picture - wheras the C3X lite, was just effortless.
 

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