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Scaler the answer?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by DaveRichardson, Feb 27, 2005.

  1. DaveRichardson

    DaveRichardson
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    I hope you can help a newcomer (apologies if the questions look stupid).
    I have a Hitachi 42PD5200 display fed from Sky+ (RGB via SCART) and a Denon DVD player (Progressive via Component). I am unhappy with the plasma display which shows red and green artifacts on both moving edges and moving skin tones (these disappear as soon as movement stops)
    My basic question is - is a scaler likely to help ?
    If so (after reading various threads on this forum) most refer to matching the output of the scaler to the display's "native resolution". My display is a 1024x1024 ALIS panel but, according to the manual, the display's DVID inputs nearest resolution is 1080i/60 (1920x1080). Similarly the component inputs also require (1080i/50 or 60). Does this mean that the panel will still be processing the signal (ie more of the same atrifacts)?

    If a scaler is the answer, would the Lumagen DVI fit the bill? It is about at my price limit (I don't want to pay the same again for the scaler as I did for the panel).

    Dave
     
  2. BertM

    BertM
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    Hello Dave,

    don't expect miracles from a scaler in this situation. As you can read in the many postings in this forum, every plasma display suffers from movement artefacts.
    My findings on my Philips 42PF9965 (equipped with a Hitachi/Fujitsu 1024 * 1024 ALiS panel) are that the colour banding and solarisation are less visible with an external deinterlacer/scaler (in my case a DVDO iScan HD), but still there. You can make the artefacts nearly invisible by using a higher synch rate than 50Hz. I found 62.50 Hz to be the best in respect to colour banding, but unfortunately the panel is unable to show me a full display in this case (for some reason the left and right one-and-a-half inch are black, like when watching a 4/3 signal on a 16/9 screen). 75 Hz would be better, but my panel can't handle this without judder (unwatchable). Motion judder at 62.5Hz is watchable and much better than at 60Hz. I found a compromise at 56.25 Hz, where motion judder is acceptable, and colour banding is nearly invisible. Despite the motion judder, the picture is more pleasing than with the Philips media box with its Natrual Motion and Pixel Plus.
    I run the display at 1024 * 768, as this is much better than the native resolution of 1024*1024. 1280 * 720 is also very good, but the picture is more stable whith 1024*768.

    It would be best to try a Lumagen or iScan for a week or so, before spending that much money. Some retailers will give you this opportunity (at least here in Holland).

    Good luck,
    Bert
     
  3. DaveRichardson

    DaveRichardson
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    Thanks Bert,
    It sounds like I may get some improvement and I will take a look at the iScan as it seems to work for you in a similar situation. Your advice to try the unit first is sound (the visibility of the artifacts varies greatly with the programme material) - I now need to find a good retailer...


    regards
    Dave
     
  4. KraGorn

    KraGorn
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    Try giving Joe at The Media Factory a call or drop him an e-mail to ask about getting a Lumagen DVI for a home trial.
     
  5. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Bear in mind Alis panels don't like being fed progressive signals. Make sure any scaler you use can send the panel an interlaced signal..

    Cheers,
    Andy.
     
  6. zAndy1

    zAndy1
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    Notice you say you're Denon dvd player is using the progressive output. Have you tried turning off the progressive scan and seeing if that looks any better?

    Cheers
    Andy
     
  7. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    1080i works quite well with alis if you are in the midlands or south west try piers at www.homecinemaengineering.com as he can demonstarte a scaler and Calibrate your display ALis are hard to get looking good but it can be done.........
     
  8. DaveRichardson

    DaveRichardson
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    Thanks for all the help

    I'll give the interlaced scan option a go for the DVD player and will check out the scalers with the dealers you have mentioned.
    I am reasonably happy with the colour calibration of the panel as I am familiar with calibrating and profiling PC monitors for digital photography and have the colour measuring equipment for that. I started with the "warm" setting which was the closest to D65 (which I understand to be the PAL standard) then measured & tweaked the white point/ greyscale and colour using colour bars generated on a spare SKY channel. Not perfect but reasonably close. It's a pity that TVs/DVDs do not have ICC colour profiles in the same way that PC monitors do as this allows a simple recalibration through hardware & software every week!
    Back on the scalers, I notice the iScan & Lumagen output to DVI-I. My screen input uses DVI-D - is this a problem?

    Dave
     
  9. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    DVI-I Is DVI-D and DVI-A (digital and analogue) a copy of DVE pal will contain more accurate test patterns for set-up as DOES AVIA (NTSC) a combination of calibration and scaler can overcome most of the artifacts but never totally banish them (they are inherent to PDP technology)
     
  10. DaveRichardson

    DaveRichardson
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    Thanks once again for your help and explanation. Life was much simpler when you just bought a TV, plugged in an aerial, and watched it!

    Regards
    Dave
     
  11. DaveRichardson

    DaveRichardson
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    A quick update - after much discussion, advice and looking, my iscan HD+ arrived yesterday. Running the output at 1080i60 on DVI has all but eliminated the artifacts I was seeing on my Hitachi (and restored my faith in plasma screens!). Even Sky looks good!


    Dave :thumbsup:
     
  12. Mr Grumpy

    Mr Grumpy
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    Crikey I might have to seriously consider a scaler then as Sky on my PJ can look pretty shabby....
     
  13. shane515

    shane515
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    Dave...Did you trial iscan first or just go for it !! 'er indoors will want to 'see' a difference if I spend even more money...I have the same hitachi screen with the same problem with artifacts, Eastenders etc :mad:

    Nosey question....where did you get the iscan from????
    thanks very much Shane :thumbsup:
     
  14. DaveRichardson

    DaveRichardson
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    Did you trial iscan first or just go for it

    After much discussion with various people on the issues I had, and seeing another screen (not Hitachi) running via an iscan, I went for it - no regrets to date. My wife watched East Enders last night - with no more complaints about "bigger television ..worse picture ...etc".

    I got it from av sales , who I found very helpful (and with which I have no connection other than buying the iscan). http://av-sales.co.uk/


    One question - I now have to switch the aspect ratio manually on the iscan input when switching sky channels (it used to switched automatically on the TV scart input). I have seen devices which switch the aspect ratio on a television using the sky SCART out and the TVs RS232 port. Has anyone got anything like that working on an iScan?

    Dave
     
  15. binbag

    binbag
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    I just use the aspect ratio buttons above the input selects at the bottom of the HD remote - its not that great a chore and the 'preset' function allows me to store borders for 2.35:1. Of course this'll be no help if you don't keep the Iscan remote handy when you're watching...
     
  16. DaveRichardson

    DaveRichardson
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    I just use the aspect ratio buttons above the input selects at the bottom of the HD remote - its not that great a chore and the 'preset' function allows me to store borders for 2.35:1. Of course this'll be no help if you don't keep the Iscan remote handy when you're watching...

    That's what I do at the moment - I was just trying to make it easier for my wife and family. I also tend not to leave the iscan remote lying around - we have a two year old and I dread to think what she could "adjust" accidently!

    If I can't get anything to work automatically, I might go for a learning remote and put a subset of the TV/iscan/Amp controls onto that.

    Regards
    Dave
     
  17. binbag

    binbag
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    As soon as the HD becomes 'pronto friendly' I'll be scanning Ebay for one as well. I have toyed with the idea of building a six-sided remote holder but I don't think the AV community is ready for it yet :D
     
  18. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    DaveRichardson

    The product your looking for (PARC209) lives after the SCART RGB Output from your Digibox and ahead of the RGB+sync Input on the HD+ - it uses the WSS signal from the SCART socket to control your Display via RS232.

    See http://www.multi-region.co.uk/product_info.php?products_id=679

    Best regards

    Joe
     

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