scaler for pioneer 436xde

A

AlanMci

Guest
Hi everyone,this is my first post.at present am considering buying an upscaler for my new pioneer 436xde.will it improve picture on sky plus? I would appreciate any advice you may have
:thumbsup:
 

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
There are a few folk on here who use scalers with their devices. I saw a chap with 506XDE and a VP30 from DVDo yesterday and I myself have a clients who are members of this forum who have Lumagen Vision DVI and HDP's series units with XDE's and they swear by them. Look for posts by SHarger, Damo in Sale etc...

Gordon
 

swall101

Well-known Member
Hi Alan

I had my Pio ISF'd by Gordon and the picture quality was improved fivefold, colours much more lifelike.... blacks blacker and picture a lot cleaner. Whilst having this done I asked Gordon about scalers and he demod a Lumagen HDP for me.

Now I never in a million years considered getting a scaler but when I saw what it could do there was never going to be a choice:D

When I first puchased my Pio and plugged it in I though oh my god what have I done.... the picture quality on SKY was:censored: . DVD wasn't that much better, but now it rocks big time.

My advise to you would be find a dealer who is willing to do you a demo and see for yourself.

cheers

Steve
 

damo_in_sale

Well-known Member
Gordon @ Convergent AV said:
There are a few folk on here who use scalers with their devices. I saw a chap with 506XDE and a VP30 from DVDo yesterday and I myself have a clients who are members of this forum who have Lumagen Vision DVI and HDP's series units with XDE's and they swear by them. Look for posts by SHarger, Damo in Sale etc...

Gordon
Gordon installed my Lumagen and ISF'd my set-up at the same time.
When I first bought my XDE I was expecting Sky to look useless as I thought it was rubbish on even my 28" widescreen Tosh CRT. And I was right, it largely looked rubbish on the XDE. Picture quality on Sky ranged from unacceptable to acceptable. Since the Lumagen was installed Sky now ranges from acceptable to superb, depending on the channel.
To be honest, I haven't noticed much difference with DVD, although I have a very good DVD player to begin with so your experience might be different.
One thing I wish I did was plump for the HDP as I think it would have been the better investment in the long term and I'm not sure if there is any upgrade policy with Lumagen.
Anyway, well worth it if your not short of cash.
Oh, Gordon was great by the way. I think I've mentioned in other threads that he stayed at mine for around 4 1/2 hours in order to do the demo, ISF, subsequent Lumagent installation and answering my ill-informed questions :)

Hope that helped,

Damo
 

kblundy

Standard Member
Hi Guy's great thread. :lease: I have a new 506XDE and was wondering about getting it Cal'd and then getting a scaler. Is the Scaler discussed here the Lumagen Vision HDP or the Pro version?

I live in the NE (Darlington Area - any thoughts on people that can cal my display) and possibilities of a demo of a scaler?? Is the DVDO VP30 as good as the Lumagen??

Any help would be appreciated.

Regards
Keith
 

Gordon @ Convergent AV

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Keith,

damo has a VisionDVI and SHarger has an HDP. They are in their signatures. HDP and HDP Pro would have identical performance in your system. New HDQ that is now listed on my website is also worth considering. I think there are very very few folk who can comment on direct comparisons between VP30 and Lumagen. Both are good units. I obviously have my own preference.....

Gordon
 

damo_in_sale

Well-known Member
kblundy said:
Hi Guy's great thread. :lease: I have a new 506XDE and was wondering about getting it Cal'd and then getting a scaler. Is the Scaler discussed here the Lumagen Vision HDP or the Pro version?

I live in the NE (Darlington Area - any thoughts on people that can cal my display) and possibilities of a demo of a scaler?? Is the DVDO VP30 as good as the Lumagen??

Any help would be appreciated.

Regards
Keith
The VP30 has 4 hdmi inputs, which is nice, and audio delay (which isn't really needed with the Lumagen and can be performed by most amps anyway) but other than that I cant really see any advantages. It is my understanding that the VP30 cant really do anything useful with HD material, whereas my little Lumagen DVI can do a decent job of 1080i video deinterlacing by all accounts. The HDP and HDP Pro models can also perform inverse telecine of 1080i film based material which will be useful in the future too.

Perhaps DVDO owners could put me right if my comments regarding the VP30 are wrong, but I dont think they are.

In my amateur opinion the Lumagens are the wiser choice.

Cheers,

Damo
 

JohnWH

Active Member
Is it me or does the HDQ sound like a stop gap product to anyone else?

On question, both Lumagen and VP30 use the same deinterlacer chip, however someone mentioned that the version in the Lumagen was different in some way, is it just a higher clocked version or something else?

Cheers,
John.
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
Higher clocker version? No in most VP there is a co processor, a MIL xxx I think, Lumagen have dropped that prefering to do it themselves as they feel, and most agree, they can / have done it better. The differences are real enough for anyone with a decent screen.

HDQ stop gap? No I don't think so. They have quality deinterlacing / video processing now but felt rightly that many in the market wanted more HDMI sockets for the future and his was easily delivered. There are many other differences as well particularly centering around HD.
 

JohnWH

Active Member
Nick,

I know most processors use a coprocessors, I had heard that lumagen uses a modified version of the Sil504 for deinterlacing.

They may have high quality de-interlacing now, but how does it compare with the newer processors? Even if they do have programmability it does not mean that they have sufficient performance available to implement the newer algorithms. The impression I got from Gordons site was that the HDQ is just a repackaged HDP, but hey I could easily be wrong, as could anyone else with the same info!

Later,
John.
 

damo_in_sale

Well-known Member
JohnWH said:
Nick,

I know most processors use a coprocessors, I had heard that lumagen uses a modified version of the Sil504 for deinterlacing.

They may have high quality de-interlacing now, but how does it compare with the newer processors? Even if they do have programmability it does not mean that they have sufficient performance available to implement the newer algorithms. The impression I got from Gordons site was that the HDQ is just a repackaged HDP, but hey I could easily be wrong, as could anyone else with the same info!

Later,
John.
Even if it is a 'repackaged HDP', I see little wrong with that- its a stunning piece of kit.
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
John

certainly there is a common heritage here, no one is denying that but having a common ancestors that is the class leader currently is not a bad place to start. Re SIL performance etc. Over the years I have learned that it isn't the SIL or the Faroudja chip that is important but how you use them. I have seen good and very poor examples of both. I have made mistakes buying processors because of this in the past and why actual hours under the belt is the important thing. The SIL503 / 504 is an old processor. Look at it 5 years ago and look at it now in say a Lumagen and it is really chalk and cheese. The Iscan range alone has been through I think 6 iterations I can think of off the top of my head. The new processors inc the new chip sets will have the same learning curve. YES the chip have some formidable capabilities but until the 'potential' is fully realised I don't think will see this in practice. Just look at the current DVD players that are using them and how they can be bettered by feeding a Lumagen.

A re packed HDP, well yes you could describe it like that but I think you will find some of the internal electronics has been tweaked to the better but I don't call this a stop gap but a good move to address market issues, something Iscan are very good at. I see the Lumagen family being around for a long while with the Radiance joining them as an addition later in the year as the 'king' of the Lumagen range.

Currently I see the Lumagen HDP pro as about the best scaler out there, certainly the ones I know. I am sure the future will bring new options but it just that, the future. As it does such a good job now, I can't seeing changing overnight, especially as it has addressed the important HD market already. The competition however I see falling pretty rapidly unless they address HD, which has taken Lumagen not a considerable amount of time to do, and presumably investment.
 

JohnWH

Active Member
Guys, I won't disagree about quality of lumagens products, and from the aftersales support standpoint they seem to be second to none. However, the reality is that there is a wave of new scalers ariving in a similar price bracket to the lumagen products (well maybe a bit more expensive), and anyone buying an HDP or HDQ now would daft not to compare with the newer scalers as the technology in them is, in theory at least, significantly better.

Nick, I don't entirely agree with your comment about the SiL or Faroudja chips not being important, the capabilities of the processor dictate an envelope within which you have to work, they place a cap on what can be acheived, yes there is a lot of tweaking that can be done but it has its limits.

Right now my expectation is that the new processors will exceed the performance of Lumagens current products in many respects, simply due to the improvements in underlying algorithms, this however doesn't mean they'll exceed their performance in every respect.

Personally I can't wait to get my hands on the likes the Vantage HD, Crytalio II or even the HDQ to see which does my PJ the most justice (the radiance looks like its going to be plain too expensive for me).

All imo of course,
John.
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
JohnWH said:
However, the reality is that there is a wave of new scalers ariving in a similar price bracket to the lumagen products (well maybe a bit more expensive), and anyone buying an HDP or HDQ now would daft not to compare with the newer scalers as the technology in them is, in theory at least, significantly better.
John

the NEC is well documented at AVS :( The Vantage, well 002 and 001 appear to be here, I have read the manual, NOT IMPRESSED. It is not well done. The company doesn't seem to have grasped the domestic AV market requirements at all. Forgeting the software issue, just the inputs and outputs would eliminate it for me immediately. Others no doubt others will be happy with HD15 and no BNCs and limited conectivity. I will have a look closer though when they REALLY start to shipas I have a cunning plan ;). The Crystallio 11 looks great, the manual is CLASS, compare that to the Vantage and it chalk and cheese. This will worry Lumagen but it is not shipping yet, so it is pure speculation still but it looks like a great processor. The pro I like is £4k give or take change (a bit less in reality), so I can get more than 2 Lumagen best for this money, so not really comparable. As a dedicated fan in this area who looks at this stuff asap, well in reality it is not here yet and brochure specs mean NOTHING. Price comparable to Lumagens?, no, not really at this stage. Significantly better?, just don't buy this at this stage, they are not here and will probaly need serious development in firmware yet. Time will tell if they exploit their potential. Lumgaen has AND is here NOW.

JohnWH said:
Nick, I don't entirely agree with your comment about the SiL or Faroudja chips not being important, the capabilities of the processor dictate an envelope within which you have to work, they place a cap on what can be acheived, yes there is a lot of tweaking that can be done but it has its limits.
Never said it wasn't important at all. If you read what I said it was that it is HOW it is implemented that IS important. Crap Faroudja or good Faroudja?, they are both based on 23xx chips. There are plenty of examples of both. You never make good food out of poor ingredients but it is what you do with the good ingredients that matters.


JohnWH said:
Right now my expectation is that the new processors will exceed the performance of Lumagens current products in many respects, simply due to the improvements in underlying algorithms, this however doesn't mean they'll exceed their performance in every respect.
As most of these processor are not shipping yet is still theoretical. No one denies their potential capabilities but I think they will be a while achieving them. Current implementations of these 'super chips' have not advanced the SOTA. No other processor has done quality/ relaibity on launch, I see no difference for these will be any different especially with new chips. Don't forget these new super chips are basically VERY powerful lumps of silicon but the smart bit is the algorithms they run, ie the software. Previous chips were more hard wired and look what needed to get the best out of them re firmware. They are however pitched at generally 2x the price as the current Lumagens so I don't really see them as competion anyway. I doubt Lumagen does either as it will release it new processor pretty shortly as well to compete. Of all these new processor only the Crystallio 11 temps me but Lumagen will take that head on in next few months so I prefer to wait for real results. We need to get guys who know their stuff practically to have a look at them.

The results will only come with practice and bigging all these new processor up pre launch is not really helping. We have many a disappointment previosly from un fulfilled promises.

anyway isn't this OT?
 

SeanT

Distinguished Member
at the end of the day my humble opinion would be that anyone buying a new HD in/out scaler now this close to the launch of true HD domestic product needs their head testing - I bought an SD scaler as I know I won't be able to afford all this HD gear when it first hits the market, I also wanted to see how it panned out - I can't imagine having spent (for worst case example) a couple of k on a top spec 768p screen and a HD scaler last October in time for "HD by Christmas" only to still be waiting to see any HD material outside of a PC (which is more than capable of doing the scaling itself) and then finding out that more of the material is being downscaled and deinterlaced from 1080i due to the US production and proliferation of 1080i cams through an input that I may have one or none of..... sorry to be cynical but that's the message I have got from checking this forum for a year or so
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
as someone who bought a HD video processor several years ago and embrassed HD in all it's forms over the past few years I have had smashing fun watching HD, ditched the HCPC years ago however as it just couldn't compete. Nice to see it coming main stream. each to their own.
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
I like Dtheatre and that is what I have been using for much of my stuff. High bit rate, high quality and legit ;).
 

JohnWH

Active Member
Nic Rhodes said:
the NEC is well documented at AVS :( The Vantage, well 002 and 001 appear to be here, I have read the manual, NOT IMPRESSED. It is not well done. The company doesn't seem to have grasped the domestic AV market requirements at all.
Yes I read the AVS thread on the NEC, not good. As for the vantage manual, yes I've also looked at that, not great, but personally I'll judge a product like this on its image quality not on its manual.

Forgeting the software issue, just the inputs and outputs would eliminate it for me immediately. Others no doubt others will be happy with HD15 and no BNCs and limited conectivity.
The vantage has sufficient connectivity for me, as I suspect it would do for a lot others here, particularily with HDMI expansion. They have mentioned a pro model with more connectivity and features, but who knows when that'll materialise.

I will have a look closer though when they REALLY start to shipas I have a cunning plan ;). The Crystallio 11 looks great, the manual is CLASS, compare that to the Vantage and it chalk and cheese. This will worry Lumagen but it is not shipping yet, so it is pure speculation still but it looks like a great processor. The pro I like is £4k give or take change (a bit less in reality), so I can get more than 2 Lumagen best for this money, so not really comparable.
The CrystalioII looks like a well put together product. Do you really need the pro? HD SDI isn't useful to most (Edit: ahh, I see you have a DTheather set up), the timebase correction is nice (if it really works on the audio) but not essential, and the HDD recorder feature seems like a gimmick. I'd save 1K and get the non pro model.

As a dedicated fan in this area who looks at this stuff asap, well in reality it is not here yet and brochure specs mean NOTHING. Price comparable to Lumagens?, no, not really at this stage. Significantly better?, just don't buy this at this stage, they are not here and will probaly need serious development in firmware yet. Time will tell if they exploit their potential. Lumgaen has AND is here NOW.
Yep specs and brochures mean nothing that is why I said I intend to demo. The vantage is here now (I haven't seen a UK price yet) and reports appear to be quite positive where it matters i.e. image quality. As you say time will tell on the SW quality. Yes Lumagen is here now, but personally I'm not going to spend £1.5K at this point in time given what I know about the undelying technology, at least not without some level of comparison.

Never said it wasn't important at all. If you read what I said it was that it is HOW it is implemented that IS important. Crap Faroudja or good Faroudja?, they are both based on 23xx chips. There are plenty of examples of both. You never make good food out of poor ingredients but it is what you do with the good ingredients that matters.
What I said stands, the implementation can't exceed the capabilities offerd by the HW its based on.

As most of these processor are not shipping yet is still theoretical. No one denies their potential capabilities but I think they will be a while achieving them.
Err, I think you'll be surprised.

Current implementations of these 'super chips' have not advanced the SOTA.
Yes they have, by a significant degree.

No other processor has done quality/ relaibity on launch, I see no difference for these will be any different especially with new chips.
I certainly agree that SW reliability may be an issue.

Don't forget these new super chips are basically VERY powerful lumps of silicon but the smart bit is the algorithms they run, ie the software. Previous chips were more hard wired and look what needed to get the best out of them re firmware.
Incorrect, the gennum VXD is hard wired, the Silicon Optics is programmable, the later is more expensive than the former for a good reason, however its worth pointing out that programmbility can also only go as far as the underlying processing power allows.

They are however pitched at generally 2x the price as the current Lumagens so I don't really see them as competion anyway. I doubt Lumagen does either as it will release it new processor pretty shortly as well to compete.
Hmm, I'd suggest that the HDQ is a perfect example of how concerned Lumagen are.

Of all these new processor only the Crystallio 11 temps me but Lumagen will take that head on in next few months so I prefer to wait for real results. We need to get guys who know their stuff practically to have a look at them.
Yep, a few good head to head comparisons are definitley needed, I'm quite capable of doing this comparison myself but getting the kit on home trial at the same time will never happen.

The results will only come with practice and bigging all these new processor up pre launch is not really helping. We have many a disappointment previosly from un fulfilled promises.
I'm not bigging up anything, I'm just suggesting that to buy now might be unwise unless you're really desperate or have money burning a hole in your pocket (which I seem to having bought a Ruby a month befor ethe price dropped by 1K :( who'd be an early adopter... ahh)

anyway isn't this OT?
Absolutley!:)
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
John tbh I think we agree on the vast majority here and are more caught up in details that subtly change between various competing companies, related to either specific or general comments. I think we are largely saying the same thing fro two slightly different directions.

The hard wired comments are not just aimed at the gennum VXD and the Silicon Optics ;)

The 'bigging it up' reference is a long time bug bear of mine with many pieces of kit being totally over hyped before delivery. This weeks special is the KISS 600, only 26 months late and still not delivered.!! I think it a poor trend and one which generally leads to a poor purchases. I do however find the 'reviews' of the KISS 600 useful despite it's current non apearance!!

All I would add is the 'superchips' I have seen running in the likes of Marantz projectors / Denon players etc, in their 'simplest' implementations have been good but for me they haven't delivered anything beyond what we have had previously from elsewhere. I would take a SDI player and a good video processor over the top Denon player for picture. I always thought of this as missed oportunutues but this potential was never realised with later firmware fixes / development despite their 'simple' implementation / use.

re HD DSI, been playing with this a work for the last 2 years ;) and have three DTheatre decks here, waiting.....
 

Nic Rhodes

Well-known Member
AlanMci said:
Hi everyone,this is my first post.at present am considering buying an upscaler for my new pioneer 436xde.will it improve picture on sky plus? I would appreciate any advice you may have
:thumbsup:

A dedicated video processor will I think off a real performance upgrade to you plasma. Sky + would certainly be able to shine, Prices are typically £800 upwards to get something of the same quality as the very good Pioneer, with most of the 'affordable' option in the £800 to £1600 price range but many will be more on facilities and options as opposed to other matters. If you are just interested in Sky and DVD then the simple Iscan, Plasma enhancer range and basic Lumagens are well worth looking at. If you have more money then the world is your oyster but many decision will initially be guided by the facilities you need (in / outs etc). I would advise you have a serious think about paying someone to set it up professionally and calibrate the plasma for you however as this makes all the difference. Look to ISF trained personnel, like Gordon who has already posted here. It makes a BIG difference to most peoples set up.

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/calibration.html

link added to Gordons site that explains what calibtartion can do for you.
 

JohnWH

Active Member
Nic Rhodes said:
re HD DSI, been playing with this a work for the last 2 years ;) and have three DTheatre decks here, waiting.....
We've got a couple at work as well, unfortunatley I'm on the Graphics Architecture side of things these days so I don't get to play with video teams toys very often.

Considered buying one myself, but with HD DVD perpetually just around the corner never took the plunge, what with concern over catalogue size and mangled tapes etc.

Anyway must stop hijacking this thread!

Later,
John.
 

JohnWH

Active Member
Oh Ok then...

Any idea what CRT Projectors introductory offer is on the Crystalio II?

Wonder if its possibel to get anymore out of 'LEVESQUE' who seems to be beta testing a VXP based scaler at the moment...

Edit: Nic are you CRT based? If so I guess the time base correction on the CII Pro probably also makes sense for you.

John
 

kblundy

Standard Member
:lease: There has beensome interesting discussion on this thread - but can anyone give me a difinitive of the effectiveness of a ISCAN vp30 with my pioneer 506XDE / SKY+ / Arcam FMJ DV27A etc.

Also does anyone know of an ISF calibration service in the NE england
 

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