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Sanyo Z2 and Pal material ... not very good ?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Edgler Vess 200, Feb 12, 2004.

  1. Edgler Vess 200

    Edgler Vess 200
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    Hi

    This is my first post ... and

    It seems that around here there´s a lot of useful information for Sanyo Z2 and PAL material users...so please help me on the following ...

    My questions are :

    1) Are there any general problems for Pal material ?

    2) Are there any problems with DVI output 720p and 50Hz ?

    3) Does the Sanyo Z2 accept 720p at 50Hz ?

    4) I have a Yamakawa dvdplayer with a DVI output .
    Has anyone try this one ?

    5)Is it better to use 576p output or 720p 50Hz output ?


    Thanks in advance

    Edgler
     
  2. magnust

    magnust
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    The only problem i have found with pal-material on the z2 is that it does not accept 720p at 50 hz over digital dvi. Analog is supposed to work fine at 1280x720 @ 50 hz but i can't verify that (I haven't tried).

    A spokesperson for cavena (swedish sanyo distributer) hinted that a firmware upgrade would fix this, but since then several firmware upgrades have been released and the latest one (version 106) have yet to deliver on this.

    I use my z2 with a htpc driving it 1:1 pixel mapped at 60 hz. The image i get is stunning, except for the odd jerkiness caused by watching pal material at 60 hz. For me the jerkyness is not so bad. I only notice it on really slow pans, and even then it's only slightly annoying. This is highly subjective of course, but for me it's not a super big deal. Would I want it fixed ? Certainly! But it's not a deal breaker for me.

    I have read reports of the AE-500 being possible to drive at 1280x720 @ 50 hz over dvi. So if this is critical for you, you may want to investigate that machine. To me the z2 has the edge over the ae-500 beacuse of the soft image on the 500 (amazing how adding a feature (smothscreen) actually degrades the performance, I bet Panasonic is wondering how that happened ;))

    Hope this helps somwhat.

    Magnus
     
  3. KraGorn

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    I've abandoned using my HTPC/V880 for PAL due to the Sanyo's stupid restriction .. feeding component @50hz may produce a lesser PQ but at least it doesn't suffer judder which really grates especially with movies like LoTR with awesome wide-area pans which the judder destroys for me. This NTSC-centric view is damned annoying. :mad:

    Had I realised the Z2 wouldn't take 50Hz via DVI I'd not have bought it, it's not exactly obvious from the specs I saw .. I'll know for next time. :(
     
  4. Jeff

    Jeff
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    KraGorn, This is a common problem and IMO the single biggest failing of most digital projectors. Unfortunately it doesn't get highlighted enough and people put up with it when they shouldn't. Its not just DVI either, quite often the VGA doesn't work at 50Hz either. Even when it does sync, the refresh rate gets converted back to 60Hz inside the projector and the stutter/judder is as bad as ever. Its virtually impossible to figure what works and what doesn't until after the purchase.
     
  5. magnust

    magnust
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    Kragorn,

    have you tried feeding an analog 720p signal from your htpc at 50 hz? While not as good as dvi, it would probably be better then 576p.

    Again, no guaranties this actually works since I have only read about it.

    Magnus
     
  6. KraGorn

    KraGorn
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    Thanks, at least it's not just ME who missed this. I didn't realise though that even analog 50Hz can get changed to 60Hz . where does one discover THAT little item? :rolleyes:


    Actually no, that hadn't occurred to me to try. :blush: When I had an AE300 I used the VGA output because I didn't have DVI at the time, when I got the Z2 I got a new Radeon and only ever used DVI. Hmmm .. will I have a battle with Powerstrip? I recall some tedious twiddling making 1280x720 stick.

    Thanks very much for pointing out an obvious thing to try, I would certainly expect 720p RGB to be better than 576p component given the Z2's pitiful scaler.
     
  7. buns

    buns
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    i was just thinking pretty much what Jeff says. It seems very few projectors actually change the rate at which they refresh the panels, the common one being 60Hz. It is likely that the sanyo conversion is simply poor. The best way around this would be to avoid the sanyo doing any of the conversion, ie. dont send it 50Hz in the first place. It is likely that the AE500 is fixed at 60Hz likewise, simply that it is converting it better. I havent done a comparison, but i suspect that if you have a the pc doing your work, it will more often than not be doing the job better than the projector so using 50Hz is more often than not actually going to give an inferior image.

    And i will say again, i have managed to get the Z2 doing 50Hz via my capture card software. It doesnt tend to stick and does tend to result in weird pc things. So i gave up on it on the basis that i actually am not noticing problems just running PAL material through there at 60Hz.

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  8. KraGorn

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    So you're not seeing PAL judder? :confused:

    I'd swear Jackson's wide pans look utterly smooth played by my Sony 730 but stutter horribly via DVI, either from PC or V880.
     
  9. buns

    buns
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    i havent been specifically looking so maybe im missing it, but there is nothing of that nature which is immediately obvious.

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  10. KraGorn

    KraGorn
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    Well don't start looking now. :D
     
  11. Jeff

    Jeff
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    If my Cheapy LCD screen can do 50Hz perfectly well, I can't see why a projector costing nearly 10 time as much can't do it. Don't put up with it, demand a fix!
     
  12. Edgler Vess 200

    Edgler Vess 200
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    Well ... it´s probably better to start buying NTSC dvd´s ... :(
     
  13. The Nightfly

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    Perhaps we should have a sticky thread where people can post known working refresh rates for their projector.

    For reference, I have the NEC HT1100 and using DVI it will accept all the common refresh rates of 48.0, 50.0, 59.94 and 60Hz. Will check 47.952 at some point soon.

    Allan
     
  14. buns

    buns
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    sorry to change track but whats the NEC like? Compared to the HT1000?

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  15. magnust

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  16. The Nightfly

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    Hi buns,

    I've had the HT1100 for about a month so I've had chance to become well acquainted with it now and I'm very happy with the results I'm getting. I never had the chance to compare it with the HT1000 but there are a couple of '1100 threads over on AVS that are still active with comments from those who have.

    I've upgraded from an Epson TW100, 1280x720LCD, and the most striking improvements are the subtle and realistic colours and the sheer clarity of the image. The image also looks very smooth and detailed, not what you would initially expect from a 1024x576 display and I'm actually seeing significantly less screen door and pixellation than previously.

    I think I've trained myself to see rainbows because I do see them occasionaly whereas I never saw them at all at first. However, they are very infrequent and mild and limited to the very darkest of scenes with localised areas of brightness. This is really a non-issue for me and it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the projector.

    BTW, for completeness sake, I tried out a refresh rate of 47.952Hz and the projector accepted it okay and very smooth pans. I'm going to stick with 59.94Hz for Region 1 disks. TheaterTek appear to be performing perfect TeleCine conversion at this frequency and I can't see any difference in smoothness between this and 47.952Hz - they both appear equally good but at the lower frequency the colour wheel slows down and I think this produces a slightly increased perceptability to rainbows. Region 2 PAL disks run beutifully smoothly at 50Hz and gain the slight benefit of 5x speed on the colour wheel.

    Allan
     
  17. buns

    buns
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    Very interesting thanks Alan. Im currently wrestling with either going on holiday or making an extensive upgrade so this machine is one of potential interest (though since it isnt out in the states, it is tough to make use of the good exchange!).

    I did notice the AVS threads but have to admit i havent got around to reading them..... do you use an anamorphic lens?

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  18. Jeff

    Jeff
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    This points to 48Hz not working properly, if it did it R1 would be as smooth as R2 PAL.
     
  19. The Nightfly

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    Hi Jeff,

    48Hz appears to be about as effective as 60Hz, maybe slightly better – i.e. generally good smooth pans but with the very occasional judder noticed if the panning is particularly sustained. These are being treated as unique refresh rates (i.e. no conversion of the 48Hz to 60Hz) by the projector as I can hear the colour wheel changing speed when switching between the two.

    59.94Hz looks perfectly smooth to me, which is slightly odd because I would expect to see some inevitable judder as a by-product of the 3:2 pull-down. For now I’ll just accept that judder is there but it is below my threshold of observability. I’m still acclimatising to the novelty of stutter-free pans so perhaps over-time my sensitivity will readjust and the imperfections will become more apparent.

    47.952Hz in theory should be better than 59.94Hz and should be totally smooth but as 59.94Hz is already below my threshold I can’t see any difference between the two. It probably is better but not in any way I’ve observed so far. Again, these two frequencies are being treated as unique refresh rates by the projector. In fact, changing from 47.952Hz to 50.0Hz produces quite a significant change in colour wheel speed when the projector ‘locks-in’ to the 50Hz input and switches to 5x speed mode.

    Allan

    Just a reminder, all this is via DVI
     

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