Samsung UE**ES8000 Owners Thread Part 12

Status
Not open for further replies.

Curly99

Distinguished Member
This thread is a continuation of the part 11 thread here:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/lcd-...amsung-ue-es8000-owners-thread-part-11-a.html

Last Post
outoftheknow said:
sillycargt4cs said:
And there is no such thing as a led tv!!!
They are LCD screens with led side or back lighting
And LCD has been around for years

Was true until very recently although Sony produced an 11" (O)LED quite some time ago. The O only stands for organic but the screen is LED and no back or side lights. LG got one out in 55" and Samsung put theirs on hold due to poor issuable screen ratio at the factory :) I remain more interested in OLED than 4K since the technology is totally different and the problems with LCD that can't necessarily be fixed by more pixels "shouldn't" exist on OLED. Motion for example should be natively miles better. :)

Curly
 

outoftheknow

Moderator
Quote
Hi Guys, hope some one can help me with this.
Recently got an Samsung ES8000 55" (has some torchlighting issues so is to go back and to be replaced with a F8000)

Also got the Yamaha V673.
All seems fine with the amp, until I try to use the ARC facility to get the sound from the TV to play through the amp. After looking through the manual and some advice on the internet, managed to enable the relevant settings in the amp, and get the sound.

Though it is working, I am having a strange issue. If I directly connect a PS3 or a laptop (media player) to the amp (the output to the TV) the sound is fine. However when I use the ARC feature (i.e. so the audio returns to the amp via the HDMI cable, and providing me with sound), I am getting 1 second dropouts at irregular intervals. It almost feels/sounds like the sound stops going to the amp for a fraction of a second, and then come on again. On the display of the amp, the speaker lights (5 speakers) go out for that second, and then re-appear. This happens whatever I am watching directly connected to the TV, whether the sets own FreeSat, or a movie on a USB. It doesn't happen though if the source (PS3 or laptop) is connected directly to the amp via a HDMI.

Messed about with a few settings in the TV, but no joy. The only options that the TV gives me are to switch between PCM or Dolby Digital (rest are greyed out), or if I want to lower or increase the 'audio delay'. Messed with these but no change, its doing exactly the same. Looked at the Yamaha V673 amp but there isn't much more to configure that will fix this.

What am I doing wrong?

Note: someone suggested that I could use an optical cable instead and hook that up from the TV to the amp, and get audio that way, however I am still curious why I am having problems using ARC.

As an addition point, someone else suggested that using the 'optical cable' was actually a better way to get audio from the TV to the amp; is this true?

Finally, if I was to use the optical cable method (as a last resort), I can't seem to find the input source for optical on the amp. Can anyone help? Unquote

It sounds as if you have the connections correct. All HDMI A/V devices connected to the amp and a single HDMI from the amp out to HDMI 2 on the TV? Also sounds like you have set ARC on the amp and have turned off the TV speakers and found the SPDIF settings for the TV digital out. If that is all correct you may have a fault but there is a faint chance it is the amp although that would be in the small part where the amp takes the ARC audio and feeds it into the decoder since other audio inputs into the amp seem to be working so the decoder(s) should be ok. To be absolutely sure you would need to try the amp ARC on another ARC enabled device or maybe take it around a friend's house to try it on their ARC enabled TV. Otherwise maybe a fault in the TV since the digital audio output should of course be as even as the input. Check what audio you get from the TV speakers by themselves to narrow it down to audio decoder output issues. Again faint chance audio from tuners etc is being mishandled on the way to the TV decoders or the decoder itself is faulty.

As mentioned previously this TV digital audio is all in SPDIF format and this is outputted to both the ARC and optical connections exactly the same. There is no advantage whatsoever in using one or the other except that fibre optic is widely believed to add distortion - although it is likely a human ear can't hear it. ARC and optical can carry the same audio bandwidth so 5.1 is maximum. The source has to be producing the 5.1 or the TV decoder has to be able to produce 5.1 from the source input for that to be sent over optical and ARC. If you get 2 channel from ARC you will not magically get 5.1 from optical.

HDMI the same direction as video has massive audio bandwidth hence the reason you are best to use HDMI from any device to the amp since the maximum audio channels being produced by the device will get to the amp. Depending on your amp capabilities you will get whatever it can manage from the speakers. Connect the device to this TV on any HDMI socket and 2 channel will result form TV speakers and digital (ARC and optical). The TV decoder can add some effects to the TV speaker audio if you use it and your amp can probably add effects or pseudo 5.1 or even 7.1 to the 2 channel digital input but connecting devices direct to the amp means it is getting and delivering the "best" audio it can.

Finally apart from the above, that optical and ARC out of the TV is the same audio, if your amp has no digital audio inputs such as optical or digital coax then it is really easy - the ARC does the same as optical from TV to amp and the amp HDMI inputs can accept all HD and multichannel formats above 5.1 which will simply not be carried by optical from other devices to the amp. The only bummer would be for devices like Sky HD boxes in the UK that do not send 5.1 over HDMI, only optical. You need to delve into digital audio converters and manipulators if you want to get true 5.1 into your amp from those devices. Optical should already be killed off IMHO and this Sky HD move was always daft and getting dafter......:)
 
Last edited:

sandavsin

Standard Member
Quote
Hi Guys, hope some one can help me with this.
Recently got an Samsung ES8000 55" (has some torchlighting issues so is to go back and to be replaced with a F8000)

Also got the Yamaha V673.
All seems fine with the amp, until I try to use the ARC facility to get the sound from the TV to play through the amp. After looking through the manual and some advice on the internet, managed to enable the relevant settings in the amp, and get the sound.

Though it is working, I am having a strange issue. If I directly connect a PS3 or a laptop (media player) to the amp (the output to the TV) the sound is fine. However when I use the ARC feature (i.e. so the audio returns to the amp via the HDMI cable, and providing me with sound), I am getting 1 second dropouts at irregular intervals. It almost feels/sounds like the sound stops going to the amp for a fraction of a second, and then come on again. On the display of the amp, the speaker lights (5 speakers) go out for that second, and then re-appear. This happens whatever I am watching directly connected to the TV, whether the sets own FreeSat, or a movie on a USB. It doesn't happen though if the source (PS3 or laptop) is connected directly to the amp via a HDMI.

Messed about with a few settings in the TV, but no joy. The only options that the TV gives me are to switch between PCM or Dolby Digital (rest are greyed out), or if I want to lower or increase the 'audio delay'. Messed with these but no change, its doing exactly the same. Looked at the Yamaha V673 amp but there isn't much more to configure that will fix this.

What am I doing wrong?

Note: someone suggested that I could use an optical cable instead and hook that up from the TV to the amp, and get audio that way, however I am still curious why I am having problems using ARC.

As an addition point, someone else suggested that using the 'optical cable' was actually a better way to get audio from the TV to the amp; is this true?

Finally, if I was to use the optical cable method (as a last resort), I can't seem to find the input source for optical on the amp. Can anyone help? Unquote

It sounds as if you have the connections correct. All HDMI A/V devices connected to the amp and a single HDMI from the amp out to HDMI 2 on the TV? Also sounds like you have set ARC on the amp and have turned off the TV speakers and found the SPDIF settings for the TV digital out. If that is all correct you may have a fault but there is a faint chance it is the amp although that would be in the small part where the amp takes the ARC audio and feeds it into the decoder since other audio inputs into the amp seem to be working so the decoder(s) should be ok. To be absolutely sure you would need to try the amp ARC on another ARC enabled device or maybe take it around a friend's house to try it on their ARC enabled TV. Otherwise maybe a fault in the TV since the digital audio output should of course be as even as the input. Check what audio you get from the TV speakers by themselves to narrow it down to audio decoder output issues. Again faint chance audio from tuners etc is being mishandled on the way to the TV decoders or the decoder itself is faulty.

As mentioned previously this TV digital audio is all in SPDIF format and this is outputted to both the ARC and optical connections exactly the same. There is no advantage whatsoever in using one or the other except that fibre optic is widely believed to add distortion - although it is likely a human ear can't hear it. ARC and optical can carry the same audio bandwidth so 5.1 is maximum. The source has to be producing the 5.1 or the TV decoder has to be able to produce 5.1 from the source input for that to be sent over optical and ARC. If you get 2 channel from ARC you will not magically get 5.1 from optical.

HDMI the same direction as video has massive audio bandwidth hence the reason you are best to use HDMI from any device to the amp since the maximum audio channels being produced by the device will get to the amp. Depending on your amp capabilities you will get whatever it can manage from the speakers. Connect the device to this TV on any HDMI socket and 2 channel will result form TV speakers and digital (ARC and optical). The TV decoder can add some effects to the TV speaker audio if you use it and your amp can probably add effects or pseudo 5.1 or even 7.1 to the 2 channel digital input but connecting devices direct to the amp means it is getting and delivering the "best" audio it can.

Finally apart from the above, that optical and ARC out of the TV is the same audio, if your amp has no digital audio inputs such as optical or digital coax then it is really easy - the ARC does the same as optical from TV to amp and the amp HDMI inputs can accept all HD and multichannel formats above 5.1 which will simply not be carried by optical from other devices to the amp. The only bummer would be for devices like Sky HD boxes in the UK that do not send 5.1 over HDMI, only optical. You need to delve into digital audio converters and manipulators if you want to get true 5.1 into your amp from those devices. Optical should already be killed off IMHO and this Sky HD move was always daft and getting dafter......:)

Hi "OUT OF THE KNOW", appreciate the time and effort that you put into the reply. The audio from the Samsung ES8000 (via it's own speakers) is fine. No dropouts or such, what ever the source.

Am going to try the following to see what happens:

1) Try a new HDMI cable. (The one I had is suppposed to be top notch, all the bells and whistles... well it said so on Amazon.... but then again I did only pay £1.50 for it so, may try another.

2) Am going to dig out an optical cable out and see how this fairs. (If it still happens... then this is were I might panic a little)

3) The ES8000 is going back on Friday, to be swapped with a Samsung F8000, this may fix the problem if its on the TV side.

4) I haven't done any firmware upgrades for the Yamaha V673 so will give this a go as well and see where I end up.

Reading around other sites, there appear to be others who have also experienced these 'drop-outs' whilst using ARC. Some have described it as if the amp is flicking between settings, to accomadate the signal (as if it was changing from 2.0 to 5.1 and thus the amp is trying to change modes to accomodate this) And this, this is what makes it sound like a drop-out, when really the amp is trying to adjust for a change in the signal. However it is hard to tell, it literally could be drop-out of signal from the TV, hence why the amp goes silent for a second. The only thing is that it happens, even though you are still watching the same programme, so I doubt very much that such programmes will change the audio randomly through an episode, thus triggering the amp to change settings.

If all else fails, the the Yamaha V673 will be going back, though it is shockingly amazing on all other counts.
 

Jnyvio

Active Member
Can someone please tell me the benefit of the Aspect Ratio Options of "SmartView-1 & SmartView-2?? All they do is shrink the main picture size down.. I want more zoom options not more shrink options!! Samsung is the only TV company that has this.. Why?? It is useless, I will never want to make the main picture smaller. I would rather have several more HD Zoom options.. This is Bad decision by Samsung's techs. Why would I want to make the main picture smaller in size?? What are they thinking...
 

HaRd2BeAr

Distinguished Member
Can someone please tell me the benefit of the Aspect Ratio Options of "SmartView-1 & SmartView-2?? All they do is shrink the main picture size down.. I want more zoom options not more shrink options!! Samsung is the only TV company that has this.. Why?? It is useless, I will never want to make the main picture smaller. I would rather have several more HD Zoom options.. This is Bad decision by Samsung's techs. Why would I want to make the main picture smaller in size?? What are they thinking...

Why would you want to zoom anything?
 

sandavsin

Standard Member
Hi "OUT OF THE KNOW" (and to anyone else that may know);

In relation to my previous issue of 'drop outs' of sound when using ARC to get sound from the TV to the reciever, I just read in the Samsung manual that if you are using a Digital component directly connected to the Tv, and hoping to get 5.1 sound to the reciever, this can be (only) done via the optical cable. The fact that it this is under the section dealing with ARC, appears to indicate that 5.1 cannot be output to the reciever via ARC, unless it a digital broadcast via Freeview HD or FreeSat HD.

Can someone with the Samsung manual please look at the (bit that deals with ARC) and tell me if I am reading this right.

If this is the case, then ARC isn't as amazing as we thought (at least in relation to the Samsung ES8000 55")

Please let me know... (Thanks in advance!)
 

Mick Seymour

Active Member
Why would you want to zoom anything?
A valid use case would be a DVD that has a letterbox movie in a 4:3 matted frame. The average player would place that in the centre of the screen with pillar box bars. The letterbox move would then only be the width of the 4:3 frame.
 

HaRd2BeAr

Distinguished Member
A valid use case would be a DVD that has a letterbox movie in a 4:3 matted frame. The average player would place that in the centre of the screen with pillar box bars. The letterbox move would then only be the width of the 4:3 frame.

I don't like zoom. Have to watch things in the original format. OCD.

Actually don't know of anything that's 4:3 with cinemascope bars?
 

cardiffboio

Active Member
Im looking at buying some new 3d glasses for my 55" ES8000 and the Samsung SSG-2200AR glasses have got decent reviews online. I just need to know if thee are compatible with the ES8000 model? Also does anyone know if these are decent specs and if not which are the best to get?

The standard ones that came with the tv dont really fair well with my prescription glasses... lots of reflection!! Thanks you fellow TV lovers!! :smashin:
 

HaRd2BeAr

Distinguished Member
Se7en, Arrival II, 2010 ... depends on how much coffee the DVD author had before going to work I think.

Haha, that tickled me :)

I have been given some early releases of films such as rambo and that was 4:3 with cinemascope but i just couldn't bring myself to watch it. So watched it on blu ray a while back. I thought it was because it was from a shady source thought (which it was).
 

cardiffboio

Active Member
Has anyone had any problems with juddering on certain films? I watched saving private Ryan last night and the picture seemed to judder all over the place in the battle scenes, Ive played around with the settings which have improved things but not eliminated it completely... The picture seems to break up at some points! What are the best settings to eliminate this?
 

outoftheknow

Moderator
Hi "OUT OF THE KNOW" (and to anyone else that may know);

In relation to my previous issue of 'drop outs' of sound when using ARC to get sound from the TV to the reciever, I just read in the Samsung manual that if you are using a Digital component directly connected to the Tv, and hoping to get 5.1 sound to the reciever, this can be (only) done via the optical cable. The fact that it this is under the section dealing with ARC, appears to indicate that 5.1 cannot be output to the reciever via ARC, unless it a digital broadcast via Freeview HD or FreeSat HD.

Can someone with the Samsung manual please look at the (bit that deals with ARC) and tell me if I am reading this right.

If this is the case, then ARC isn't as amazing as we thought (at least in relation to the Samsung ES8000 55")

Please let me know... (Thanks in advance!)

The ARC bit says it is a way to listen to digital audio without connecting optical. This is correct and I am 99% positive the SPDIF audio from optical and ARC is identical. The bit above ARC in the manual explains the 2.1 and 5.1 limitations for optical and they apply exactly the same to ARC.

So if you connect 5.1 to the TV via HDMI as stated before you will get 2.1 from optical and ARC. If TV tuners broadcast 5.1 you will get that from optical and ARC.
 

outoftheknow

Moderator
Can someone please tell me the benefit of the Aspect Ratio Options of "SmartView-1 & SmartView-2?? All they do is shrink the main picture size down.. I want more zoom options not more shrink options!! Samsung is the only TV company that has this.. Why?? It is useless, I will never want to make the main picture smaller. I would rather have several more HD Zoom options.. This is Bad decision by Samsung's techs. Why would I want to make the main picture smaller in size?? What are they thinking...

It is mostly there I reckon because digitally it can be done. Why can you digitally manipulate any image still or moving? Because it is technically possible. Most of the time it has zero use. The manual suggests that zoom is there since you might get a weird format through Allshare - i.e for multimedia use. I doubt there is any suggestion they have any use in "normal" viewing. In the actual Zoom modes you can move around the picture I think but again never even bothered to explore the function. Ruins a Blu-Ray picture.......:devil:
 

outoftheknow

Moderator
Has anyone had any problems with juddering on certain films? I watched saving private Ryan last night and the picture seemed to judder all over the place in the battle scenes, Ive played around with the settings which have improved things but not eliminated it completely... The picture seems to break up at some points! What are the best settings to eliminate this?

DVD or BD? Breaking up as in going into "blocks"? If BD do you have standard or high speed HDMI cables? Presumably cables are less than 10m? What settings helped if on BD since Film Modes should be greyed out? Presumably motion control helped a bit?

Personally on a Blu-Ray I haven't seen any juddering at all on mine and a digital picture "breaking up" is either poor quality HDMI cables (note I didn't say cheap - price is on the whole irrelevant) or BD with standard speed that really are standard speed cables. The HDMI standard requires two bandwidth to be achieved and even if a cable almost reaches "high speed" if it doesn't quite make it, it must be labelled standard speed. Same as one that just made it to the standard speed criteria. Again though forget price on the whole unless you are heading over 5m and definitely over 10m. :smashin:
 

outoftheknow

Moderator
Im looking at buying some new 3d glasses for my 55" ES8000 and the Samsung SSG-2200AR glasses have got decent reviews online. I just need to know if thee are compatible with the ES8000 model? Also does anyone know if these are decent specs and if not which are the best to get?

The standard ones that came with the tv dont really fair well with my prescription glasses... lots of reflection!! Thanks you fellow TV lovers!! :smashin:

I believe these are older glasses and may be IR and not Bluetooth. They are definitely compatible with 2010 C series and I am doubtful anything after that. This site may help with what is compatible with the ES. Edit it may be a US site so the small letters may or may not be recognisable but look for the numbers where you live to make sure the glasses you buy are correct for your regional model of the TV - just in case.

Which 3D glasses are compatible with Samsung products? | SAMSUNG

Generally the 2011 and 2012 (and now presumably 2013) models are compatible with glasses of model numbers starting with 3 or 4. Models starting with 2 are 2010 and earlier. Samsung changed from IR to B/T and that means absolute line in the sand compatibility regardless of the fact they are all active etc.
 
Last edited:

DodgyTactics

Standard Member
It's nearly a year since I've posted so this may have been covered already, but I'll ask anyway.

Does anyone use ITV Player and does it often refuse to re-start the program after an ad break?

It's pretty annoying that you can't skip the ads in the first place (although it's obviously a revenue source for ITV, so you'd expect it I suppose), but very often the program does not resume after the break. The only way to to fix it is to quit the program, then re-start and hopefully it will resume after yet more adverts.

I don't know if this happens on any other implementation of ITV Player, or if it's just a problem with Samsung's version. Has anyone else noticed this and is there a fix?

Cheers.
 

steve2493

Standard Member
It's nearly a year since I've posted so this may have been covered already, but I'll ask anyway.

Does anyone use ITV Player and does it often refuse to re-start the program after an ad break?

It's pretty annoying that you can't skip the ads in the first place (although it's obviously a revenue source for ITV, so you'd expect it I suppose), but very often the program does not resume after the break. The only way to to fix it is to quit the program, then re-start and hopefully it will resume after yet more adverts.

I don't know if this happens on any other implementation of ITV Player, or if it's just a problem with Samsung's version. Has anyone else noticed this and is there a fix?

Cheers.

yeah i get the same problem,i would say its a prob with the app.
 

beercr8te

Active Member
It's nearly a year since I've posted so this may have been covered already, but I'll ask anyway.

Does anyone use ITV Player and does it often refuse to re-start the program after an ad break?

It's pretty annoying that you can't skip the ads in the first place (although it's obviously a revenue source for ITV, so you'd expect it I suppose), but very often the program does not resume after the break. The only way to to fix it is to quit the program, then re-start and hopefully it will resume after yet more adverts.

I don't know if this happens on any other implementation of ITV Player, or if it's just a problem with Samsung's version. Has anyone else noticed this and is there a fix?



Cheers.

I can't even get mine to work, just goes to blank screen.
 

sandavsin

Standard Member
Hi "OUT OF THE KNOW",

Just as an update, I finally got round to connecting the ES8000 to the reciever via the 'optical cable'. Switched over to AV4 (which is the selector for the optical connection) and not a single drop-out. Kept the TV on for over 5 hours, as i did some other DIY around the house, and it worked perfectly.

For others thats may have the same problem, I suppose its not an ideal solution, in that if one has ARC, then you should be able to benefit from that solution. But... if all else fails, the optical did the trick for me.

I must add though, I did turn off the Anynet + (HDMI CEC) [on the TV] and HDMI control from the reciever, to esure the TV stopped trying to send audio via the HDMI cable. So I can't say if these changes helped too, but I'll try to re-enable them and and see if I still recieve perfect sound via optical. The important bit though is I have it all working.

Maybe I'm just imagining it, but there did appear to be a difference in sound too. I'm sure I heard more distinct effects coming from the rear speakers, with sound effects almost placed around the room, than when I was just using the ARC. The film I used was the AVENGERS. Key examples were the first time Dr. Banner became the Hulk, some of the scenes with Loki in the glass box, (noise of electric doors closing) and the final fight scene. Before, there just seemed to be stereo from the front, and a constant stream of small noises from the back. This time (with optical) the sound was moving around the room, with effects coming from all over the place. It was weird. There was a number of occasions I thought either someone was genuinley at the front door, something had smashed outside in back garden, and someone had dropped something behind. Again, maybe just my imagination, but I think I'm sticking to optical, whether ARC works or not.
 
Last edited:

outoftheknow

Moderator
Hi "OUT OF THE KNOW",

Just as an update, I finally got round to connecting the ES8000 to the reciever via the 'optical cable'. Switched over to AV4 (which is the selector for the optical connection) and not a single drop-out. Kept the TV on for over 5 hours, as i did some other DIY around the house, and it worked perfectly.

For others thats may have the same problem, I suppose its not an ideal solution, in that if one has ARC, then you should be able to benefit from that solution. But... if all else fails, the optical did the trick for me.

I must add though, I did turn off the Anynet + (HDMI CEC) [on the TV] and HDMI control from the reciever, to esure the TV stopped trying to send audio via the HDMI cable. So I can't say if these changes helped too, but I'll try to re-enable them and and see if I still recieve perfect sound via optical. The important bit though is I have it all working.

Maybe I'm just imagining it, but there did appear to be a difference in sound too. I'm sure I heard more distinct effects coming from the rear speakers, with sound effects almost placed around the room, than when I was just using the ARC. The film I used was the AVENGERS. Key examples were the first time Dr. Banner became the Hulk, some of the scenes with Loki in the glass box, (noise of electric doors closing) and the final fight scene. Before, there just seemed to be stereo from the front, and a constant stream of small noises from the back. This time (with optical) the sound was moving around the room, with effects coming from all over the place. It was weird. There was a number of occasions I thought either someone was genuinley at the front door, something had smashed outside in back garden, and someone had dropped something behind. Again, maybe just my imagination, but I think I'm sticking to optical, whether ARC works or not.

Cool that you have it working although as you say it appears to be fault in the TV. Enjoy it :thumbsup:
 

TonyaNorway

Well-known Member
Well, I've been using both the E8000 and the F8000 series side by side for a while now and I have to say there's not much in it at all.

Not surprising as it's basically the same panel, very similar hardware apart from the quad core which is in the EK anyway.

Perhaps I'm biased as I do use the SH on a daily basis and I love SH2.
It's sleek, fast and everything you'd expect from a blindingly fast four core computing platform.

The new F8000 stand is very Marmite, just like the E8000, either you love it or hate it.
Got to say I prefer the E8000 design but that's my personal taste.

The operating system is slightly different but I expect that will be in the EK.

I'm happy to confirm that the SH doesn't have to appear on power-up as first feared, so a late tweak there.

Prefer the fixed camera on the E and not impressed with the pop-up affair IMHO.

Picture quality is as near 100% identical as the E8000 although I suspect that will change when the engineers get to grips with the extra power a quad core chassis can supply so I will be keeping a close eye on the E firmware upgrades versus the F chassis upgrades.

I predict the F (and the E+EK of course) will start to pull ahead in PQ when the dust has settled.

The current LCD panel will almost certainly be the last series produced before the shift to OLED so any improvements in the future will be down to codecs and firmware.

Interesting times ahead! :clap:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

The latest video from AVForums

Star Wars Andor, Woman King, more Star Trek 4K, Rings of Power & the latest TV, movies & 4K releases
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Latest News

What's new on Netflix (UK) for October 2022
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Starzplay streaming service rebrands as Lionsgate+
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
JVC adds Filmmaker Mode to latest D-ILA projector firmware
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Bowers & Wilkins launches Px8 headphone
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Sky set to launch its plug-and-play Sky Stream solution
  • By Ian Collen
  • Published
Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom