Samsung NU8000 Owners Thread

Glad to hear Freesync works for you also. Now if I can just work out why the nu8000 does not consistently switch to HDR when starting HDR games, I will be happy. I often have to dashboard and then resume the game for it to kick in, so a possible handshake issue. It does not happen with HDR movies from another source, so I am starting to suspect this be related to the Xbox One X and perhaps being in the insider program.
Yep same happens to me but rarely. Must be an insider issue as I am in the program also. Alpha.
 
Another long one, sorry!

Are you guys referring to the way the TV can bring up information about the resolution and input status? If so, with the smart remote, you can scroll over to the icon of the connected equipment and press on that...brings up the info about that input.

Due to never really using the smart remote, I wasn’t aware of this. Useful to know!

I'm going to put the OLEDs back on my "consideration" list for my next set, funds allowing...

:thumbsup:

I unfortunately do not have anyone in my area to attempt this, save for calling some home theater pros who did some work for us in the past in this house (in-ceiling speaker wiring, changing of our previous rear-projection Sony SXRD display's lamp, etc.).

I'll probably just stay out of the menu.

Possibly worth getting a quote from them? Depending on how much the dimming annoys you and how reasonable their usual prices are.

That's all well and fine; I just feel like, based on what I've experienced with this edge-lit set, SOMETHING has got to be better than what I'm seeing...and if I can't afford an OLED, it's gonna HAVE to be a premium LCD with FALD.

Fair enough; from my personal experience with this NU, something has got to be better thanwhat I'm experiencing. That's all I'm saying.

The placebo effect would play heavily into any difference you saw. Especially given you know the technical benefits of FALD and due to how negative your feelings are generally towards the NU.

IRL the perceived noticeable differences to your eye would likely be no better than the NU with bias lighting.

I understand your passion -- along with some others in this thread, like Foster -- regarding the attempt to make me see that FALD is just as "guilty" of bloom than edge-lit...and I totally get that SOME light bleed is going to occur on ANY LCD, as it's a side effect of the tech. I do.

I'm just saying that I'd give FALD a try once I get rid of this Samsung if only because we wouldn't (probably) be able to afford an OLED at our desired size, and thus there'd really be no other option in terms of tech (I wouldn't, obviously, go back to edge-lit).

We are doing it because once the FALD placebo improvement wears off, you would be stuck with another expensive TV that didn’t match your needs.

You would genuinely see no better improvement in blacks, spending $900 on a FALD as you would spending $30 on a D65 white lighting strip for bias lighting.

I have no answer as to why some people here are seeing little to no light bleed with their panels while I am seeing copious amounts.

Either you have a bad panel (which is what I’d put my money on), or you are very sensitive to noticing bloom.

Ironically, I would hope it is just that you have a bad panel.

As if you are sensitive to it, then it is even more likely that you’ll notice it on any LCD based TV. And with panel variances/panel lottery, demoing a model in a store will be useless, because the panel of the TV you buy might not be as good.

Which puts you back into OLED, or ideally projector, territory.

Speaking of which...is there ANY manufacturer still making an edge-lit panel outside of Samsung?

I know Samsung, Sony, LG and Toshiba all released edge-lit models in 2019. Only the LG featured local dimming, and it performed worse than the NU8000.

It is pretty much guaranteed that at least those manufacturers will also have 2020 models with edge-lit TVs.

Generally speaking; the manufacturers that don’t have edge-lit TVs only have direct-lit models in the lower ranges, with them putting FALD only in their premium range models.

Can anyone such as Foster confirm what Vag is saying here about most conversions to HDR "dimming the overall picture compared to SDR"? Is this actually happening?

This sounds curious...

however, I feel like I didn't get any answers regarding Vag's assessment that suggests all HDR films are mastered at 100 nits like SDR variants (unless I misunderstood Vag's point)...

@Razer08 has beaten me to this now because I was trying to answer everything in one, but I’ll try and add to it where I can.

Short answer:
  • It can dim the picture, it all depends on how the HDR is implemented; such as the Star Wars original trilogy and a lot of the Netflix HDR shows.
  • No, they aren’t mastered at 100 nits; but that doesn’t always matter either (see long answer). I think the thing @Vagval13 might have been on about is that the value for “diffuse white”. HDR maintains the limit for "diffuse white" (such as a white walls, paper, etc.) at 100 nits; which is the same as for SDR. Luminance above 100 nits is restricted to highlights. This is the case for both HDR10 and DV (which promulgated the PQ EOTF).
Long answer:

HDR is a bit of a Wild West ATM. Normally, a HDR movie is mastered in either 1000 or 4000 nits; though there are some done in 8000 or even 10,000. But, and it’s a big but, this doesn’t mean this is what you are always seeing. As @Razer08 pointed out, it is a bit of a marketing misconception; for the most part the nit rating refers to what level of monitor was used for the grading…not what the movie is graded at.

When we say ''4000 nits mastered/graded'' it doesn't mean that the movie will have up to 4000 nits levels; it can be much lower or even much higher. Often, even though a movie is mastered on a monitor of a particular grade, the metadata contains 2 other values which have far more impact on how the movie presentation is viewed:
  • maxCLL - Maximum Content Light Level; the brightest sub-pixel of a frame (nits)
  • maxFALL - Maximum Frame-Average Light Level; the max APL of entire frame (nits)
Some examples of movies that have been under or over graded can be found in the attached pictures below; I have named the pictures accordingly.

Knowing what you are getting in terms of HDR, is made worse by the fact that the movies can differ by region, based on which POST house handled the mastering for that region’s disc. E.G. Blade Runner 2049 is Mastered at 10,000nits REC2020 colour space in the US release, but 4000nits DCI-P3 colour space in the UK. However, the UK version is actually brighter overall, with a maxCLL of 457nits and a maxFALL of 179nits; compared to the US maxCLL of 181nits and maxFALL of 73nits. So even though the US master is specified higher, the UK disc is much brighter in HDR presentation.

Other examples can be found on the HDR metadata frame info sample picture below, which also shows the maxCLL and maxFALL for those discs in their respective regions.

For movies which have had their MaxCLL & MaxFALL set to 0 nits (usually the 20th Century Fox releases), they typical default to the BDA recommendation of 1000 maxCLL and 400 maxFALL. Others can have calculated numbers based on percentages of the grading.

In the instances where the mastering was done with a 1000/4000/etc nits capable monitor, but the masterer wants it to contain brighter content exceeding this nits rating, the colorist has to use the waveform and RGB histogram and leave un-clipped content above the nit threshold of his monitor.

So as you can see, with a lack of standards currently set for HDR, it is a bit of a mess.

Lastly, below is a link to a spreadsheet with a list of movies on with their metadata shown, as displayed by a HDFury...for those interested.

 

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I just don't want you to have false hopes and waste your money on something that still has the same problem ;)

I won't have "false hopes" and I truly don't believe I'd be back with the "same problem;" as I mentioned, blooming is so bad on certain material I view on the NU in the dark that anything has got to be better to my eyes. ;)
 
Sure, it was just a crazy test. You know that I like experimenting a bit :)
It needs some testing to see what else it changes.
Perhaps Foster with his equipment can share some light on this.
As a test, it's fine and interesting; I just wouldn't use HDR+ going forward for regular viewing.
 
I only got the update last night, as didn't manually update via USB this time.

Will give the test a go once I have some time, likely this weekend.
We (North America) still didn't get the auto update...
 
It is just a very small light bulb and it is way behind the tv, it can't even be considered as bias lighting so i can assure you it makes no difference on the outcome. Point being i think that what you describe must be some sort of faulty backlight!

You'd be VERY surprised at what causes slight differences with bias lighting -- a diffuse light far off in the distance from our set dramatically changes the perception of pitch black letterbox bars, so when we view in complete darkness the blooming is ridiculously aggressive (more so with HDR, of course).

I am not the only one -- though, seemingly the only one HERE -- who feels this display is awful in the dark, and I've said that continuously throughout this thread; so while I may have gotten a panel a bit out of spec, even reviews of the NU have talked about inadequate black levels for serious dark-room viewing.

This seems to be going in a direction where I need to continuously explain why I don't care for certain of the NU's characteristics while everyone else seems compelled to defend the model with their passionate earnest; to be clear, I'm still an NU owner and thus like contributing to discussions here about the television, and it's been decent to us outside of my aforementioned complaints regarding its dark-room performance. All I can report is what I've been seeing with my own eyes and the particular sample I received, and to say that I didn't do my research as to what I was getting into with an edge-lit panel before I purchased. Now, to that last point, this is something I have been discussing with Foster with regard to not "beating myself up" too badly about not doing my homework before buying based on our budget constraints at the time, but I still feel bad that I didn't, perhaps, start off with a Full Array Local Dimming LCD (the Samsungs, getting into the QLED range, were out of our budget, though).

At any rate, I'm disappointed with the black levels of the NU in the dark for serious film watching (notably with HDR; SDR is tolerable for the most part) but you live and learn, and when I can trade up I will...in the meantime, I can continue swapping information, tips, tweaks and setting insight with you lads. :hiya:
 
Some people notice blooming more than others. What may be fine for one person is horrible to the other so be careful about wholly believing claims about blooming as everyone eyes are different.

I'm not "wholly believing claims," I'm going by the majority of what I read in Samsung's own help forums and on other forums and in reviews -- and these are from what I understand are other film enthusiasts using their NU's in the same kind of environment I am.

What's more, I have even had in-depth back-and-forth email discussions with Daniel from Rtings and he even admitted that the NU isn't a good choice for serious cinema content -- according to him, fooling with the local dimming aggressiveness, backlight or brightness controls (or the gamma) isn't going to suddenly make this display "perfect" for HDR playback (in particular), and that regardless of what is being said in terms of the "positives" of the NU, it's not what they're seeing (or have seen) in their studios/labs.

Hdr isn't mastered at 100 nits, it's either 1000/4000 nits with specular highlights being near the upper range. Scenes that are mastered at 100 nits will be displayed at 100 nits in both sdr and hdr modes. Hdr doesn't mean brighter. Most scenes in hdr are never at the maximum luminance which I think is a misconception.
I understand that, which is why I was questioning Vag's analysis.
 
Another long one, sorry!



Due to never really using the smart remote, I wasn’t aware of this. Useful to know!



:thumbsup:



Possibly worth getting a quote from them? Depending on how much the dimming annoys you and how reasonable their usual prices are.





The placebo effect would play heavily into any difference you saw. Especially given you know the technical benefits of FALD and due to how negative your feelings are generally towards the NU.

IRL the perceived noticeable differences to your eye would likely be no better than the NU with bias lighting.



We are doing it because once the FALD placebo improvement wears off, you would be stuck with another expensive TV that didn’t match your needs.

You would genuinely see no better improvement in blacks, spending $900 on a FALD as you would spending $30 on a D65 white lighting strip for bias lighting.



Either you have a bad panel (which is what I’d put my money on), or you are very sensitive to noticing bloom.

Ironically, I would hope it is just that you have a bad panel.

As if you are sensitive to it, then it is even more likely that you’ll notice it on any LCD based TV. And with panel variances/panel lottery, demoing a model in a store will be useless, because the panel of the TV you buy might not be as good.

Which puts you back into OLED, or ideally projector, territory.



I know Samsung, Sony, LG and Toshiba all released edge-lit models in 2019. Only the LG featured local dimming, and it performed worse than the NU8000.

It is pretty much guaranteed that at least those manufacturers will also have 2020 models with edge-lit TVs.

Generally speaking; the manufacturers that don’t have edge-lit TVs only have direct-lit models in the lower ranges, with them putting FALD only in their premium range models.





@Razer08 has beaten me to this now because I was trying to answer everything in one, but I’ll try and add to it where I can.

Short answer:
  • It can dim the picture, it all depends on how the HDR is implemented; such as the Star Wars original trilogy and a lot of the Netflix HDR shows.
  • No, they aren’t mastered at 100 nits; but that doesn’t always matter either (see long answer). I think the thing @Vagval13 might have been on about is that the value for “diffuse white”. HDR maintains the limit for "diffuse white" (such as a white walls, paper, etc.) at 100 nits; which is the same as for SDR. Luminance above 100 nits is restricted to highlights. This is the case for both HDR10 and DV (which promulgated the PQ EOTF).
Long answer:

HDR is a bit of a Wild West ATM. Normally, a HDR movie is mastered in either 1000 or 4000 nits; though there are some done in 8000 or even 10,000. But, and it’s a big but, this doesn’t mean this is what you are always seeing. As @Razer08 pointed out, it is a bit of a marketing misconception; for the most part the nit rating refers to what level of monitor was used for the grading…not what the movie is graded at.

When we say ''4000 nits mastered/graded'' it doesn't mean that the movie will have up to 4000 nits levels; it can be much lower or even much higher. Often, even though a movie is mastered on a monitor of a particular grade, the metadata contains 2 other values which have far more impact on how the movie presentation is viewed:
  • maxCLL - Maximum Content Light Level; the brightest sub-pixel of a frame (nits)
  • maxFALL - Maximum Frame-Average Light Level; the max APL of entire frame (nits)
Some examples of movies that have been under or over graded can be found in the attached pictures below; I have named the pictures accordingly.

Knowing what you are getting in terms of HDR, is made worse by the fact that the movies can differ by region, based on which POST house handled the mastering for that region’s disc. E.G. Blade Runner 2049 is Mastered at 10,000nits REC2020 colour space in the US release, but 4000nits DCI-P3 colour space in the UK. However, the UK version is actually brighter overall, with a maxCLL of 457nits and a maxFALL of 179nits; compared to the US maxCLL of 181nits and maxFALL of 73nits. So even though the US master is specified higher, the UK disc is much brighter in HDR presentation.

Other examples can be found on the HDR metadata frame info sample picture below, which also shows the maxCLL and maxFALL for those discs in their respective regions.

For movies which have had their MaxCLL & MaxFALL set to 0 nits (usually the 20th Century Fox releases), they typical default to the BDA recommendation of 1000 maxCLL and 400 maxFALL. Others can have calculated numbers based on percentages of the grading.

In the instances where the mastering was done with a 1000/4000/etc nits capable monitor, but the masterer wants it to contain brighter content exceeding this nits rating, the colorist has to use the waveform and RGB histogram and leave un-clipped content above the nit threshold of his monitor.

So as you can see, with a lack of standards currently set for HDR, it is a bit of a mess.

Lastly, below is a link to a spreadsheet with a list of movies on with their metadata shown, as displayed by a HDFury...for those interested.

I'll respond to this as soon as I can, A.
 
You'd be VERY surprised at what causes slight differences with bias lighting -- a diffuse light far off in the distance from our set dramatically changes the perception of pitch black letterbox bars, so when we view in complete darkness the blooming is ridiculously aggressive (more so with HDR, of course).

I am not the only one -- though, seemingly the only one HERE -- who feels this display is awful in the dark, and I've said that continuously throughout this thread; so while I may have gotten a panel a bit out of spec, even reviews of the NU have talked about inadequate black levels for serious dark-room viewing.

This seems to be going in a direction where I need to continuously explain why I don't care for certain of the NU's characteristics while everyone else seems compelled to defend the model with their passionate earnest; to be clear, I'm still an NU owner and thus like contributing to discussions here about the television, and it's been decent to us outside of my aforementioned complaints regarding its dark-room performance. All I can report is what I've been seeing with my own eyes and the particular sample I received, and to say that I didn't do my research as to what I was getting into with an edge-lit panel before I purchased. Now, to that last point, this is something I have been discussing with Foster with regard to not "beating myself up" too badly about not doing my homework before buying based on our budget constraints at the time, but I still feel bad that I didn't, perhaps, start off with a Full Array Local Dimming LCD (the Samsungs, getting into the QLED range, were out of our budget, though).

At any rate, I'm disappointed with the black levels of the NU in the dark for serious film watching (notably with HDR; SDR is tolerable for the most part) but you live and learn, and when I can trade up I will...in the meantime, I can continue swapping information, tips, tweaks and setting insight with you lads. :hiya:
Nooo, don't get me wrong, i am not passionately trying to defend this tv, i am just saying that for the price point it's dark room performance is generally very good and the reason is because it has a very high native contrast, a thing Samsung is always decent with. Obviously i showed this pic just to make the point that a tv that lights up like an xmas tree surely has an issue with the backlight.
The NU is decent enough but of course if you want serious dark room viewing it's either an oled or a very good qled.
And yes blooming is a very subjective thing depending on how you pay attention to certain details that matter to you, like scene transitions, uniformity etc, but mind you these are issues oled has also with ABL. Depending on the abl other tv's have smooth transitions between light and dark scenes others very abruptly lose brightness in transitions if the abl is too aggressive so you will notice abrupt change to brightness etc.
So this answer is simple. Get a Panasonic which is the answer to every problem in humanity in the tech space unless you are from the States.
 
Nooo, don't get me wrong, i am not passionately trying to defend this tv, i am just saying that for the price point it's dark room performance is generally very good and the reason is because it has a very high native contrast, a thing Samsung is always decent with. Obviously i showed this pic just to make the point that a tv that lights up like an xmas tree surely has an issue with the backlight.
The NU is decent enough but of course if you want serious dark room viewing it's either an oled or a very good qled.
And yes blooming is a very subjective thing depending on how you pay attention to certain details that matter to you, like scene transitions, uniformity etc, but mind you these are issues oled has also with ABL. Depending on the abl other tv's have smooth transitions between light and dark scenes others very abruptly lose brightness in transitions if the abl is too aggressive so you will notice abrupt change to brightness etc.
So this answer is simple. Get a Panasonic which is the answer to every problem in humanity in the tech space unless you are from the States.
The image you provided was just one clip of one piece of content -- surely not enough to determine that I, personally, received a bad panel with a bad backlight.

There are moments with SDR -- AND HDR content, for that matter -- on my panel that come across looking like what you showed as an example...but it's few and far between, especially with HDR. So I can't go by one static clip taken from one moment in time from one particular film.

As for your Panny suggestion, I am in the States, so I'd have to "import" one. ;)
 
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Another long one, sorry!

No worries; it's insightful to have engaging, long conversations about a hobby we (I assume) love so much.

Due to never really using the smart remote, I wasn’t aware of this. Useful to know!

:thumbsup:

Possibly worth getting a quote from them? Depending on how much the dimming annoys you and how reasonable their usual prices are.

I'll consider it; as it stands, I planned on just getting rid of this thing -- somehow -- once it was paid off after dealing with the broken HDMI input/labeling issue and the dark room performance.

The placebo effect would play heavily into any difference you saw. Especially given you know the technical benefits of FALD and due to how negative your feelings are generally towards the NU.

IRL the perceived noticeable differences to your eye would likely be no better than the NU with bias lighting.

I could, of course, add the bias lighting to the rear of my NU to further mitigate the adverse effects of the edge lighting system...though there are a couple of things that concern me before getting into this solution. The first thing is that I have a suspicion that bias lighting, no matter how dim, is going to make my panel seem "smaller" than it already does at our viewing distance -- I say this based on experiences I've had in the past with any kind of lighting introduced in a room, no matter how subtle, when viewing film content in a dark environment...seems to me that once ambient light is introduced, a screen somehow, someway gets "smaller" even though this is totally perceived.

I also don't want to become "distracted" by the bias light, which I've heard can happen from others who have tried it.

At any rate, I would have to buy a FALD set, get it installed in my space and see for myself what is what when I view cinematic content in a darkened room -- to know for sure.

We are doing it because once the FALD placebo improvement wears off, you would be stuck with another expensive TV that didn’t match your needs.

You would genuinely see no better improvement in blacks, spending $900 on a FALD as you would spending $30 on a D65 white lighting strip for bias lighting.

Perhaps you're right with the latter part of your statement, but I provided my reasons for being a bit skeptical about bias lighting above; regardless, the "placebo" may in fact satisfy me to the point I won't desire a set with better blacks...and if that happens, I'll just have to save my shillings for an OLED..

Either you have a bad panel (which is what I’d put my money on), or you are very sensitive to noticing bloom.

Ironically, I would hope it is just that you have a bad panel.

Being equally pragmatic, I'd bet money that it's the dimming system of this entire model range -- that is, the NU8000 -- and that most folks are just forgiving of the horrible bleed on this thing (especially with HDR) and/or are viewing in conditions very much unlike mine. I mean, honestly, you'd have to be brain dead or paralyzed from the neck up to see what I'm seeing and be comfortable viewing a two-hour-long film -- and I'm willing to bet this is more than me being sensitive to it (which I'll get to below). Is it possible I got a bad panel? Sure. Anything is possible. But when I read about others experiencing these poor black room parameters (not those on this site), it's either that Samsung sent out a PLETHORA of bad sets all over the world -- and that's what me and these folks are seeing -- or I'm not quite as off my rocker about what I'm seeing as would be believed by reading some of these responses.

As if you are sensitive to it, then it is even more likely that you’ll notice it on any LCD based TV. And with panel variances/panel lottery, demoing a model in a store will be useless, because the panel of the TV you buy might not be as good.

Which puts you back into OLED, or ideally projector, territory.

I can almost guarantee you that if you visited my humble abode and sat in my living room to watch a DVD or Blu-ray -- God forbid a UHD Blu-ray -- you'd be taken aback by what I see when this issue gets bad.

As for a projector? If I'm having issues with blacks and scope areas of films lighting/brightening up, I sure don't want to get into that territory. And aren't most of the 4K projectors on the market poor at reaching the basic requirements for HDR?

I know Samsung, Sony, LG and Toshiba all released edge-lit models in 2019. Only the LG featured local dimming, and it performed worse than the NU8000.

It is pretty much guaranteed that at least those manufacturers will also have 2020 models with edge-lit TVs.

Generally speaking; the manufacturers that don’t have edge-lit TVs only have direct-lit models in the lower ranges, with them putting FALD only in their premium range models.

That's eye-opening news to me -- I was under the impression that only Samsung offered edge-lit sets at the present time. I had assumed that the other manufacturers were utilizing a FALD approach -- even in their most basic lines -- for every set, save for those, of course, like Sony and LG that offer OLEDs.

No, they aren’t mastered at 100 nits

That's precisely what I wanted confirmation on.
 
On a side note.....I was informed this evening when I turned the NU on for dinnertime viewing that the update had gone through...

Don't really see much difference with regard to brightness levels yet, as reported.
 
IntelliVolume, nobody is saying that your issue with blacks doesn't exist. Or that it's minor.
I'm on the same boat regarding weak color on the NU. I'm the only one that notices it ;) and everybody tells me that "it's fine".

So I'm as puzzled as you as to why other people don't notice it. Or why it doesn't show up in tests.
But I guess that different people just notice things differently.
 
IntelliVolume, nobody is saying that your issue with blacks doesn't exist. Or that it's minor.
I'm on the same boat regarding weak color on the NU. I'm the only one that notices it ;) and everybody tells me that "it's fine".

So I'm as puzzled as you as to why other people don't notice it. Or why it doesn't show up in tests.
But I guess that different people just notice things differently.

Interesting; you're seeing "weak color" on your NU? With all sources and in all picture modes?
 
Yes I do on all modes.
The Rtings settings improved it a bit, specially the custom BT709 colorspace. Latest updates also have improved color in general.

But my point it that for some reason I'm the only one that notices it. It's a minor thing but it's there.
 
No worries; it's insightful to have engaging, long conversations about a hobby we (I assume) love so much.

Agreed.

I'll consider it; as it stands, I planned on just getting rid of this thing -- somehow -- once it was paid off after dealing with the broken HDMI input/labeling issue and the dark room performance.

Could you not use it in another room.

I normally cycle my TVs; lounge TV goes to family room, family room TV goes to bedroom, etc.

I could, of course, add the bias lighting to the rear of my NU to further mitigate the adverse effects of the edge lighting system...though there are a couple of things that concern me before getting into this solution. The first thing is that I have a suspicion that bias lighting, no matter how dim, is going to make my panel seem "smaller" than it already does at our viewing distance -- I say this based on experiences I've had in the past with any kind of lighting introduced in a room, no matter how subtle, when viewing film content in a dark environment...seems to me that once ambient light is introduced, a screen somehow, someway gets "smaller" even though this is totally perceived.

I also don't want to become "distracted" by the bias light, which I've heard can happen from others who have tried it.

I don’t personally have that perception issue of the screen getting smaller; but if you do, then I can see how that might be an issue. I would still recommend it though, especially since the cost of trying it is so low; I got a kit that will go around the top and both sides of the TV for £12 ($15 approx) from Amazon.

To minimize the level of distraction, I would recommend getting only a D65 white light, as opposed to any other colour or multi-colour solution. D65 white is also proven to be the best light for maximizing the perceived improvement in blacks.

At any rate, I would have to buy a FALD set, get it installed in my space and see for myself what is what when I view cinematic content in a darkened room -- to know for sure.

Does anyone you know have a FALD that you could go view? Preferably in a pitch black environment like how you view your content currently.

Or do you have any specialist stores near you? Most dedicated home theatre stores in the UK will set up demos for viewings.

Perhaps you're right with the latter part of your statement, but I provided my reasons for being a bit skeptical about bias lighting above; regardless, the "placebo" may in fact satisfy me to the point I won't desire a set with better blacks...and if that happens, I'll just have to save my shillings for an OLED.

I’d recommend the saving either way. A few more months of saving for an OLED would be far better for your situation than buying a FALD.

Being equally pragmatic, I'd bet money that it's the dimming system of this entire model range -- that is, the NU8000 -- and that most folks are just forgiving of the horrible bleed on this thing (especially with HDR) and/or are viewing in conditions very much unlike mine. I mean, honestly, you'd have to be brain dead or paralyzed from the neck up to see what I'm seeing and be comfortable viewing a two-hour-long film -- and I'm willing to bet this is more than me being sensitive to it (which I'll get to below). Is it possible I got a bad panel? Sure. Anything is possible. But when I read about others experiencing these poor black room parameters (not those on this site), it's either that Samsung sent out a PLETHORA of bad sets all over the world -- and that's what me and these folks are seeing -- or I'm not quite as off my rocker about what I'm seeing as would be believed by reading some of these responses.

I doubt you’re off your rocker.

The dimming system on the NU8000 is admittedly not the best, but it is one of the best for edge-lit TVs; with only an older Sony edge-lit model (I forget the exact model now) beating it, but that Sony was so good it could beat some FALD sets in measurement tests.

It is also possible that the people here were lucky and got really good panels, but my friends’ panels perform equally as good as mine, so odds are that these are just the usual panels. Albeit that’s based on a very small sample size, but it is a real world sample size of panels bought from different vendors in different areas.

As discussed, it could also be a region thing, as I do notice far more US customer (I read a lot of AVSforums, though I’m not a member) having issues than those in the EU or Asia. Though why Samsung would make that sort of a choice seems odd as would surely only serve to hinder sales in that region.

I can almost guarantee you that if you visited my humble abode and sat in my living room to watch a DVD or Blu-ray -- God forbid a UHD Blu-ray -- you'd be taken aback by what I see when this issue gets bad.

I suspect I would.

As for a projector? If I'm having issues with blacks and scope areas of films lighting/brightening up, I sure don't want to get into that territory. And aren't most of the 4K projectors on the market poor at reaching the basic requirements for HDR?

In my experience, projectors are far more stable with the image they produce than TVs are; old rear projection TV sets notwithstanding.

For dark room viewing, I’ve never had a better picture than that produced by my old projector. I still regret the day I sold it.

That said, they aren’t poor at HDR requirements…they just flat out can’t do it, they have to tone map HDR content instead.

That's eye-opening news to me -- I was under the impression that only Samsung offered edge-lit sets at the present time. I had assumed that the other manufacturers were utilizing a FALD approach -- even in their most basic lines -- for every set, save for those, of course, like Sony and LG that offer OLEDs.

No, to manufacturers, FALD is still seen very much as a premium feature.

In terms of dimming capabilities, as a general rule, I’d say:

Basic (up to £450/$592)
Direct Lit backlight with no dimming features.
Mid Range (Up to £700/$920)
Edge Lit backlight with no dimming, but a thinner TV, or Direct Lit with only global dimming.
Premium (£700/$920-£1000/$1314)
Edge-lit with local dimming, or FALD with approx. 50 zones.
Flagship (£1000/$1314+)
Either an OLED or FALD with 100+ zones.

Those are obviously very rough guides, with some models concentrating more on “features” than picture quality; with some top end Mid-range TVs for instance having more “features” at the expense of dimming capability, whilst a low end Premium TV might have the dimming capability, but fewer fancy features.

There will also be some overlap or cross-over from one manufacturer to another, due to the fact that some manufacturers just don’t produce some types of TVs at all. The price ranges I have labelled are the general launch prices, and don’t take into consideration sales/discounts or regional pricing ($ values based on today’s exchange rate).

But it is a good rule of thumb IMO.

On a side note.....I was informed this evening when I turned the NU on for dinnertime viewing that the update had gone through...

Don't really see much difference with regard to brightness levels yet, as reported.

I’ve not noticed any difference to the brightness, since the update.
 
Yes I do on all modes.
The Rtings settings improved it a bit, specially the custom BT709 colorspace. Latest updates also have improved color in general.

But my point it that for some reason I'm the only one that notices it. It's a minor thing but it's there.

Clearly your eyes must be broken! :rotfl:

I went back to look at Rtings, as I was sure they mentioned a colour accuracy issue, and lo and behold they state:

"White balance and color temperature are near perfect post calibration. We were unable to correct color accuracy, although it remains acceptable for most people."

So you're not imagining it.

Interestingly, been a while since I looked at the Rtings verdict for this TV, but I notice that they retested it using their version 1.3 test bench back in February; and I'm sure the scores have gone up by 0.2. o_O I'm sure Mixed usage was 7.9 and movies usage was 7.4, but they are now 8.1 and 7.6 respectively.
 
Foster, I work in design (web, 3D, some video) so I've developed a good eye for color.
Rtings tested the larger panels, but hdtvtest. co. uk made a review for the 49'' (test images are missing on the page but you can see them on the last video):

Anyway, this is not something that bothers me. Sky, trees, faces, all look normal, it doesn't hinder normal movie viewing at all.
 
Currently own the 65 NU8000.. thinking of upgrading it for the Q90R.

How much of a difference will I see? Is it worth the upgrade?
 
Currently own the 65 NU8000.. thinking of upgrading it for the Q90R.

How much of a difference will I see? Is it worth the upgrade?

The Q90 is a marked improvement over the NU8000, specifically for HDR and local dimming. If you plan to calibrate it and use it mostly with SDR and/or none "pitch black room" viewing, the differences will be minimal.



Whether it is worth the upgrade though is entirely dependent on how you find the current performance of the NU8000 for your use case and whether you think the amount of improvement is worth the price of the Q90 upgrade; unfortunately, only you can answer that.

There is no denying the Q90 is a technically superior TV, but IMO you would have to watch a lot of HDR material in a pitch black room to make the upgrade worth while; unless you have got an absolute steal on the Q90...or just have the cash to spend. :smashin:
 
I have some cash set aside. I really wanted to upgrade to a C9 but have been put off by trying to avoid Burn in, the reflectiveness of the screen, the low down stand and a supposed poor SD picture.

I love my NU8000 I have practically no DSE and screen uniformity is excellent.., just 1 downside for me the veiwing angles aren't great and the wife sits side on to the TV.... just always dreamed of having an OLED. Spotted the 75" Q90r in Currys though and was blown away by the size and picture quality... although these in store demos always look good.

I use my NU8000 for a lot of PS4 Pro HDR gaming... feels like the HDR just makes everything really bright... doesn't have that 'pop' factor .


So going for the 65 Q90r... theres not much of a difference?

I guess the 75 would be the better choice
 
I have some cash set aside. I really wanted to upgrade to a C9 but have been put off by trying to avoid Burn in, the reflectiveness of the screen, the low down stand and a supposed poor SD picture.

The C9 would be far more comprehensive upgrade. I’d recommend to keep saving and purchase that when you can.

IMO burn in isn’t an issue for people that watch varied content; Rtings actually conducted a test to 9000 hours (equivalent of 5 years of use @ 5 hours a day) and noted that only the TVs that had been displaying long periods of static content had developed any uniformity issues. See the article below:

Real Life OLED Burn-In Test on 6 TVs

The C9 is also praised for the low reflectivity of its screen and the ability to scale even 480p content without obvious upscaling artifacts.

So the only real down side to you as I can see, would be the low down stand.

I love my NU8000 I have practically no DSE and screen uniformity is excellent.., just 1 downside for me the veiwing angles aren't great and the wife sits side on to the TV.... just always dreamed of having an OLED. Spotted the 75" Q90r in Currys though and was blown away by the size and picture quality... although these in store demos always look good.

Sounds like you got a good panel for your NU8000.

With regards to viewing angles, the C9 or any OLED will have far superior viewing angles than the QLED.

The Q90 does have marginally better viewing angles; colour wash out at 32° instead of 23°, colour shift at 37° instead of 21°, etc. Across all factors it averages out to be a difference of 9°.

The C9 averages out at 16° across the same areas, so nearly double the Q90.

What sort of lighting do you use in your viewing environment?

Because unless you’re going to be watching in a bright room to need the additional brightness, most of the benefits of the Q90 are IMO nullified.

I use my NU8000 for a lot of PS4 Pro HDR gaming... feels like the HDR just makes everything really bright... doesn't have that 'pop' factor .

HDR can be a mixed bag, since it is wholly dependent on how well it is implemented by the content creator; be that the movie mastering suite or the game developer.

Some movies and games are good, some aren’t; but if they aren’t, all you’re really doing is cranking the backlight up and making the picture brighter.

So going for the 65 Q90r... theres not much of a difference?

I guess the 75 would be the better choice

75” will have no benefit in terms of picture quality vs the 65”, nor does it have any additional features.

It’s purely a size increase for this model.
 
Thanks for all the info...


So you think going from NU8000 to a C9 OLED would blow me away but going to a Q9 I'd be wishing I'd kept my money?!!

Also....is the C9 less brighter than the NU8000 ?
 
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So you think going from NU8000 to a C9 OLED woukd blow me wway but going to a Q9 I'd be wishing I'd kept my money?!!

I don’t know if I would go so far as to say “blow you away” or indeed “wish you’d kept your money”, but I do think the OLED is the better choice.

Buying an expensive LCD TV doesn't really gain you a lot better overall picture quality compared to cheaper models anymore, certainly not like it used to in years past. It used to be the difference between buying a cheaper LCD TV and a more expensive model was almost exclusively in overall picture quality; now it is almost exclusively how they reproduce HDR.

So since you are paying extra money almost solely for HDR performance, you are not getting better picture quality with every source like you used to.

If you watch mostly HD Blu-Rays, DVDs, catch up TV, regular broadcast TV (including Sky Q/Virgin/BT) you are watching SDR content, and you are by far better off going for an OLED.

If you intend to watch primarily HDR content with the TV, then a Q90 might be better, but it is a big might. The issue is that currently, there isn’t really the content available to watch primarily HDR content and the Q90’s advantages doesn’t actually make it an outright benefit.

The Q90 has the benefit of the higher peak brightness for HDR, but even its FALD can’t compete with an OLED. And where the C9 would lose in a brightness contest...if the HDR you’re watching is in Dolby Vision, the Q90’s brightness benefit is somewhat mitigated; as Dolby Vision helps TVs with lower overall brightness better tone map the content to the TV's capabilities.

So let us have a look at HDR sources:
  • Netflix uses exclusively Dolby Vision HDR on certain titles.
  • Amazon uses mainly HDR10+
  • Apple TV uses mostly Dolby Vision HDR content, but some shows are HDR10+.
  • On UHD Blu-Rays most titles now support Dolby Vision HDR, with many still being HDR10 and some being HDR10+. More rarely there are some movies supporting both, as different production companies back different formats.
  • Other streaming services (iPlayer, etc.) will almost exclusively use HLG HDR as TV supports that now.
  • HDR games consoles currently use base HDR10 only.
IMO the big three in that list are Netflix, Amazon and UHD Blu-Rays; 2 of which support Dolby Vision which improves HDR performance on TVs without high peak brightness. So the Q90 only really has a beneficial impact on Amazon and HDR games, since Apple also supports Dolby Vision and other streaming services are few and far between.

TL-DR

If you currently watch in a bright room and/or use “Dynamic” mode, the Q90 will likely look better to your eyes. If you currently watch in a dim/dark room and/or correctly adjust your settings, an OLED will provide a better picture.

Q90 (LED LCD TVs)

Pros
  • High peak brightness means for more impact with HDR. Less compression has to happen with high nits sources which is most important for games.
  • More impressive in bright rooms or using HDR during the day.
  • In the case of Samsung models, great gaming features such as motion interpolation without the addition of input lag.
  • More competitive pricing at larger sizes than OLEDs.
Cons
  • Narrower viewing angle
  • Potential haloing and blooming in dark viewing environments.
  • Not that much better at displaying SDR content than much cheaper LCDs
C9 (OLED TVs)

Pros
  • Per pixel delivery of SDR and HDR brings more gains in all areas. You will see the biggest boost of picture quality overall compared to an LCD, especially if you are not using HDR a lot.
  • No motion blur.
  • The best viewing angles
Cons
  • ABL and reduced brightness with HDR, most notable with Sony OLED
  • 65" and especially 77" carry a large premium compared to LCDs.
  • OLED Burn In Risk
 
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