Question Samsung NU7100 vs. Philips PUS7303 - picture quality

[CZLCD]

Hi,

I'm choseing between these VA LCD TVs in the size of 40 "or 43" respectively.
I have searched the whole forum, but I can not decide in terms of image quality.
I like a smooth picture - frames interpolation, so I'm not interested in Hisense A6 ... where this feature is missing.

So far I prefer Samsung, but I'm tempted by the P5 processor ...

Thanks

 

[Dodgexander]

If you are going to use interpolation you can use neither TV with a 50-60hz source. You'll need the Sony XF85/XF87 series for that at 43".

The Samsung supports dark frame insertion which you can use with any content, but it introduces slight flicker. The Philips probably has better motion interpolation again, if the source is 30hz or below.

We also aren't 100% sure the Philips will be VA. They use a mixture of panels in their 6 series. Most seem to be VA that have been spotted though.

 

[CZLCD]

Thanks.
If I understand, on Samsung, the 24p source is interpolated to 60 FPS. Or is it interpolated to 48 FPS?

 

[Dodgexander]

Thanks.
If I understand, on Samsung, the 24p source is interpolated to 60 FPS. Or is it interpolated to 48 FPS?

Samsung's 60hz models can't display 24 at its native refresh rate or a multiple thereof, you need a 120hz panel Samsung for that. They will turn the 24hz into 30hz using 3:2 pulldown and then if you use interpolation, double the frame rate.

Are you sensitive to 3:2 pulldown judder?

 

[CZLCD]

I thought the TV would create 60 new shots evenly spaced on the timeline.
More specifically, every second shot would be used from the source, the rest would be interpolated.

I have a LG 32LH5000 TV (2009 120Hz IPS) and now I'm going to buy Samsung 40NU7192 (2018 60Hz VA). So I'm curious ...

 

[Dodgexander]

I thought the TV would create 60 new shots evenly spaced on the timeline.
More specifically, every second shot would be used from the source, the rest would be interpolated.

View attachment 1115354

I have a LG 32LH5000 TV (2009 120Hz IPS) and now I'm going to buy Samsung 40NU7192 (2018 60Hz VA). So I'm curious ...

Your current TV is not 120hz btw, its 60hz. The 120hz that LG state is just the figure they use to describe the fake refresh rate when using interpolation.

The issue with 24fps (or 24hz) playback on the Samsung TVs is irrespective of motion interpolation or panel hz, they just can't display 24fps content without inducing 3:2 pulldown judder. You can use interpolation to negate it somewhat but it doesn't take away the fact you will not be able to enjoy films in the native format.

Chances are your current 60hz LG can't do 24hz either, most TVs from that time couldn't. So you probably get 3:2 pulldown judder on that model already. Most people including myself don't even notice it.

If you want to use motion interpolation you should aim for a TV with a 120hz panel anyway, it will do a much better job than a 60hz panel TV. If you are looking for a TV to display films at the native frame rate (without interpolation) you can find some 60hz models that can do this. I'm not sure if the Philips models can but for sure Sony and LG models can.

 

[CZLCD]

I'm sure it's 120 HZ:
LG 32LH5000

The problem is that the 100Hz 40" TV are no longer produced.

 

[Dodgexander]

I'm sure it's 120 HZ:
LG 32LH5000

The problem is that the 100Hz 40" TV are no longer produced.

You linked a review which proves that it isnt 100hz. Read the description in the review:

Another unexpected find for £550 is the 32LH5000's 100Hz processing, which doubles the usual 50Hz PAL refresh rate in a bid to tackle LCD technology's customary motion blur and judder problems.

So it has 100hz processing - All that means is LG have labelled the TV as 100hz because it can do motion interpolation to fake 100hz refresh rate. It doesn't mean you are actually seeing 100hz. They are two different things.

But my point is, because your TV is already only a 60hz model then you will find a new 60hz TV no worse with motion probably. The Samsung you are looking at in terms of motion is no different from your LG, just that the days of advertising fake refresh rate so strongly have come to an end (thankfully). If you want a TV with better motion you need to opt for the more expensive Sony XF85 / XF87 series but it will have worse contrast or you need to think about going for a larger model.

Larger models are much better value if you can fit them anyway, here in the UK you can get the Hisense U7A at 55" for as little as £500 and it has a 120hz panel. That is both larger and with the same specs as the Sony XF85/87 for less money than both the Sony's 43 and 49" versions.

 

[CZLCD]

I know, Hisense U7A is very convenient purchase, but there is not enough space in my room.
If my LG is 60Hz, then it's a big surprise for me after 9 years of use

But LG later sold an LED model with the same number. My TV of 2009 has an EEFL backlight, while a newer model with the same number has LED backlight ...

My:
LG 32LH5000 Product Support :Manuals, Warranty & More | LG U.K.

Newer:
31.5" LG 32LH5000 - Specifications

 

[CZLCD]

But I can easily test it. I create a 60FPS video in MKVToolnix and try what happens when I turn on or off Trumotion.

So I tested it and the difference in sharpness and fluency - Trumotion on / off - is very clear.

 

[Dodgexander]

I do not think there have been any TVs at that size with a 120hz panel, ever, let alone on your TV.

I think though since you are a fan of motion interpolation like trumotion you should really aim at getting a TV with a 120hz panel instead, you will notice a big difference and its worth saving the extra for. The native panel refresh rate is more important than the fake refresh rate manufacturers quote and will give you much better motion overall when using enhancements.

If you can go up to 49" instead of 43" there are some better options too, you get the LG 49SK8500, Philips 8 series, Sony XF85/87 series and the Panasonic FX750 all using a 120hz refresh rate at that size. Even the Sony XF85/XF87 is a better buy at this size than 43" because it uses a VA panel instead of IPS. The other mentioned models are all using IPS panels like your current TV.

Sticking only to 43" and you only have one choice in the Sony XF83/XF85 series which unfortunately is an IPS panel only.

I refer to 120hz instead of 100hz btw because every 100hz TV is actually 120hz, its just they use 100hz to describe the refresh rate in Europe due to broadcast TV being 1/2 or 1/4 the frame rate of that.

The holy grail would be 49" and the Sony XF85/XF87 but if you cannot fit, the Sony at 43" is a good TV too. These are probably the TVs I would go for if I couldn't go up to 55". Not only are they using 120hz panels but they also have very good motion processing, more highly regarded than the competition.

 

[Dodgexander]

So I tested it and the difference in sharpness and fluency - Trumotion on / off - is very clear.

Please take a read: Fake Refresh Rate Conversion: Samsung Clear Motion Rate vs Sony MotionFlow vs LG Motion Clarity Index

 

[CZLCD]

Well, but my LG is from 2009, "TruMotion 100Hz" can mean even 120Hz ...
The only thing that bothers me on my LG TV is the low contrast, the "gray-blue veil" in dark scenes when watching movies.
I looked at the 43" TVs in stores and looked huge compared to 32" TVs. So 55" TV would kill me

 

[Dodgexander]

Well, but my LG is from 2009, "TruMotion 100Hz" can mean even 120Hz ...
The only thing that bothers me on my LG TV is the low contrast, the "gray-blue veil" in dark scenes when watching movies.
I looked at the 43" TVs in stores and looked huge compared to 32" TVs. So 55" TV would kill me

49" would be a compromise, you need a much bigger TV anyway to take advantage of UHD. Most people finds their TV "shrinks" once they buy it.

If you want better blacks I'd avoid an IPS panel.

 

[Dodgexander]

Well, but my LG is from 2009, "TruMotion 100Hz" can mean even 120Hz ...

It isn't a true refresh rate though, its just the way LG want you to interpret that. If you got a 120hz panel you'd be able to reach much smoother images.

 

[CZLCD]

If the LG is only 60Hz ... the better. Because in movies and series I'm satisfied with the motion (TruMotion ON), I will be happy again with 60Hz TV. I dont see any telenovela effect (nor do I know what it really means...)
I'm not interested in 4k, in fact, I would really have enough 720p. I'm used to watching TV at a distance of 2 x diagonal. I cant catch the events at the edges of the screen from a smaller distance.
But there is no better VA TV 40/43" with motion interpolation than the Samsung N7 ...
Maybe Philips PUS7 ... but on this model I read a lot of complaints, unlike Samsung.

 

[Analysis]

Well, but my LG is from 2009, "TruMotion 100Hz" can mean even 120Hz ...
The only thing that bothers me on my LG TV is the low contrast, the "gray-blue veil" in dark scenes when watching movies.
I looked at the 43" TVs in stores and looked huge compared to 32" TVs. So 55" TV would kill me

It's 50hz native.

 

[CZLCD]

The 42LH5000 was even 200 Hz ...
LG 42LH5000 42in LCD TV Review | Trusted Reviews
Today, 60Hz, if you want a smaller TV.
That's the progress

 

[Dodgexander]

The 42LH5000 was even 200 Hz ...
LG 42LH5000 42in LCD TV Review | Trusted Reviews
Today, 60Hz, if you want a smaller TV.
That's the progress

Its not 200hz, I do not understand why you keep coming back to this. Its software that increases motion resolution.
From the review of the TV you quoted:

Clearly, though, the 42LH5000’s star trick is that 200Hz engine, which seeks to improve motion clarity and fluidity by calculating an extra three frames of image data for every ‘real’ frame coming in from a 50Hz source.

In other words its no different to 99% of TVs with 50/60hz panels today.

 

[CZLCD]

You are mixing the frequency of the source vs. panel frequency ...
If they wrote "... to improve motion clarity and fluidity by calculating an extra 7 frames of image data for every 'real' frame coming from a 25Hz source.", Then you would say that the TV is actually 25Hz and that there are no 60Hz TVs?

 

[desinho]

You linked a review which proves that it isnt 100hz. Read the description in the review:



So it has 100hz processing - All that means is LG have labelled the TV as 100hz because it can do motion interpolation to fake 100hz refresh rate. It doesn't mean you are actually seeing 100hz. They are two different things.

How can a 50/60Hz tv interpolate frames to 100Hz? 50Hz tv's listed at 100Hz only use BFI for a fake refresh rate number (standard practice for LG, at least since they implemented BFI)
Every real 100/200Hz tv interpolates frames to get above 50/60Hz?

Luckily there seems to be a video on LG Trumotion in 2009 (so Trumotion 100 was a 50/60Hz real refresh rate already)


But some 50/60Hz models (like the NU7100) can still interpolate from sources up to 30fps: "The TV is able to interpolate 30 fps content up to 60 fps, the native refresh rate of the panel."

 

[Dodgexander]

How can a 50/60Hz tv interpolate frames to 100Hz? 50Hz tv's listed at 100Hz only use BFI for a fake refresh rate number (standard practice for LG, at least since they implemented BFI)
Every real 100/200Hz tv interpolates frames to get above 50/60Hz?

Luckily there seems to be a video on LG Trumotion in 2009 (so Trumotion 100 was a 50/60Hz real refresh rate already)

Not really sure what you are asking here or if you meant to quote me or not. I never said that they could interpolate 50hz/60hz content I was just pointing out that the true refresh rate quoted on the above two older LGs is not 100hz.

The OP seems to think that when he reads the trumotion refresh rate that it is the panel refresh rate, my point is his current TV is not using a 100hz panel just the same as the Samsung he is interested in.

 

[desinho]

Not really sure what you are asking here or if you meant to quote me or not. I never said that they could interpolate 50hz/60hz content I was just pointing out that the true refresh rate quoted on the above two older LGs is not 100hz.

The OP seems to think that when he reads the trumotion refresh rate that it is the panel refresh rate, my point is his current TV is not using a 100hz panel just the same as the Samsung he is interested in.

Just confused by reading: "All that means is LG have labelled the TV as 100hz because it can do motion interpolation to fake 100hz refresh rate." when it can't if it is a 50/60Hz model.

The original review (of a 32" set) linked mentions: "Larger TVs in the LH5000 range, we should point out, add a scanning backlight to proceedings, to deliver a pseudo 200Hz effect. Presumably, LG decided -- with some justification -- that you don't really need 200Hz on a TV as small as the 32LH5000."
If correct it would mean the 32" could very well be a true 100Hz model.

 

[Dodgexander]

Just confused by reading: "All that means is LG have labelled the TV as 100hz because it can do motion interpolation to fake 100hz refresh rate." when it can't if it is a 50/60Hz model.

The original review (of a 32" set) linked mentions: "Larger TVs in the LH5000 range, we should point out, add a scanning backlight to proceedings, to deliver a pseudo 200Hz effect. Presumably, LG decided -- with some justification -- that you don't really need 200Hz on a TV as small as the 32LH5000."
If correct it would mean the 32" could very well be a true 100Hz model.

No, it can still do interpolation if the source is 25hz or 30hz, no different to the Samsung he is interested in today. That's my point.

The 100hz figure or the "trumotion" refresh rate is decided by LG, their 100hz TVs were sold as 200hz and their 50hz sold as 100hz so therefore if an older LG has trumotion hz it has a native 50hz panel refresh rate.

I've wrote a lot about interpolation and frame insertion in the past and I'm not denying that a TV that with better motion software and a backlight that flickers well doesn't improve motion, I'm just saying that if the OP wants the very best performance in this area he should look at panel refresh rate first and the rest second.

If he is happy to keep the same kind of performance the Samsung NU7 series will be similar to his old TV in that respect, probably with a slight edge due to better motion software and dark frame insertion.

 

[CZLCD]

I'm sure the 32LH5000 has a 120Hz panel.
I tested it. I was playing a 60FPS video with Trumotion turned on and off, and the difference was quite noticeable.
1) If the panel was only 60Hz, there could be no difference with Trumotion turned on or off
2) 32LH5000 doesn't have BFI, I have very sensitive eyes and I know how it flashes. Even no drop in brightness will occur when I turn on Trumotion.

Unfortunately, for me, the 32LH5000 is 100Hz TV, so the new Samsung NU7100 will be moving backwards.