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Samsung LE26R41BDX - Green Push!

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by bonc, Aug 30, 2005.

  1. bonc

    bonc
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    I dunno if its just me,

    but even on default picture settings can you not notice (mainly in peoples faces) this tv has a tendency to highlight the colour green in peoples faces. So much so it can look unatural & sickly at times.... not sure if this is know as green push!

    but if you look closely you will notice it (p.s dont use Shrek as an tester DVD!!!!) - look at peoples faces closely. some look better than others but I really look for it now.

    dont deny the green, it is there.....

    not enough to complain about - but its there, I can feel it.
     
  2. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    Yeap, one of the reasons I sent my 32" version back. Sickly and green were my original words, it was something that was there and subconciously putting me off looking at the picture.

    BTW, in your signature:

    You're kidding, right?
     
  3. bonc

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    Lyris, I had a feeling youd come back to me, I remeber your original comments - no amount of playing around with colour settings can help right?

    re signature: - how can you be so sure, I have downloaded High def clips but yet to see anything beat monsters inc??? convince me?
     
  4. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    I sat the Samsung beside my Sony LCD - which might not have "better" colour as such, perhaps it's just because I'm more used to it - and tried to match the two. But you're right, I just could never get a picture I was happy with. It was the hardest thing to explain in words, but as soon as I showed people the problem they agreed that something looked a bit...off. I'd be curious to hear other people's perspectives though because I'm always the first one to speak out against this set and there's lots of people happy with it.

    Regarding the sig. The PAL versions of the later Pixar films (Monsters Inc) are great. The PAL version of The Incredibles is probably the best looking DVD I've seen - it's a great example of what DVD can be if the image isn't needlessly filtered and edge-enhanced. That said the best HD stuff will of course look a lot better... with 720/1080 lines against 576, it's be hard for the HD stuff not to.

    BTW, if you don't believe how screwed up most DVDs are - I downloaded some Windows Media sample clips (720p) and converted them to NTSC DVD (at 480p) without doing *anything* to the picture other than scaling it down. And when I played them back everyone I showed them to was amazed. It's a real pity how awash DVD's become with sub-standard stuff. I think it has to do with people assuming that a fantastic film will have a fantastic DVD whereas this is often not the case (the NTSC version of The Lord Of The Rings movies are all quite disappointing and the PAL ones aren't much better - although to be honest, I didn't like the films much either! Yet all of the review sites used ludicrous marketing jargon terms such as "HD-like!" - yeah, right.) I just hope the next-gen formats don't fall into this trap. (Off topic though!)
     
  5. Doctor Hades

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    I can't say I noticed any 'green push' on my LE-26R41BD - faces looked completely natural to me in terms of colour and definitely not green-ish! However, I have noticed how vivid greens are on this set, say, when you are viewing grass or trees. It's a little over the top on the default of 50 but reducing the colour to 45 or 40 compensates a bit.
     
  6. bonc

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    I'm a little confused Lyris, do you mean when you downloaded the windows High def clips and scaled them down to 480 ntsc it looked good or bad?

    and yes I agree with you on the Pixar films, but Lord of the rings PAL/NTSC dont look good in your opinion, why??? I think they are amazing transfers - but I am not technical - how have you determined this?

    And are we really going to notice the difference between 576 lines and 720/1080 when high def actually comes out to the naked eye. I guess when I'm looking at monsters inc on my upscaling dvd player I think to myself, how can it ever get better than this!! _ although I do hope I am pleasantly suprised when true High def does hit our shores..

    p.s this green push, did you notice it on all the outputs? - not just freeview/cable etc? (cant be sure if its there on DVD's (hdmi/component))?
     
  7. Woods C18

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    My le26r41bd seemed to show more red on peoples faces. However, by changing the tone to 'cool 1' setting it has helped a lot. Also the screen has started to show little flickering lines. It was fine before.
     
  8. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    They looked great. There was just so much detail present.

    A lot of the time, they just lack detail - they're not awful at all, but I certainly wouldn't say amazing. There's too much filtering which has softened out all the intricate details. This is done to prevent flicker on interlaced displays, and for other reasons too I think. For some grabs of some of the very best looking DVDs, go to my brother's site:

    http://whiggles.landofwhimsy.com/writings/halloffame.html

    [​IMG]

    The images from "The Rock" (NTSC!!!) show you what DVD can be if it's done carefully. By contrast, the PAL version of the same film, with its higher resolution, actually doesn't look quite as impressive because it's been filtered to remove fine detail.
     
  9. Doctor Hades

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    I'd agree with that, faces look too vivid at 50 but look fine at 40. I have the same model. And you say that you are now having problems with the picture processing as well? Oh no! :(

    If you think you have a problem, go in My Control Control and look closely at the still pictures of the woman in the red jumper. If you have a pixel processing problem, you should easily be able to make out flickering patches of dots since the image is static. It's harder to see on a moving image. On my TV, the woman's red jumper has red flickering pixels and a bright red patch of varying size depending on how bad the fault is. Also I can see a red line clearly down the left hand side of screen when I switch to an input without a picture source and the background is set to blue.
     
  10. bonc

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    Darren,

    I assume you mean adjust the green detail control setting to 40! - I have already done this along with Wine and Gold (all 40) - that gives the best setting so far. I am just a little confused as to why I only see the green in some faces and not others. like I said, its very subtle.
    Pause a picture and look at the face very closely, round the eyes and mouth particulary.

    I dont suffer any of the problems you guys mention in the detail colour control screen with the woman.

    Lyris - Tha is a nice screen grab of Nicholas cage. Is that an upscaled image? LCD screen?

    Ill check out your brothers site too, nice plug - lol!
     
  11. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    The image isn't actually upscaled at all, it's cropped to remove the letterboxing though.
     
  12. Doctor Hades

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    I should have made myself clearer, I meant setting the Colour to 40 makes the greens less in-yer-face. I've got the individual colours all on 50 in My Colour Control mostly because I can't see much difference from altering them whether at 0 or 100!!!
     
  13. bonc

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    Lyris,

    Why would they remove the fine detail on the Pal version of the rock????

    2nd - what dvd player and screen does your brother use in doing his research?

    he has just removed toy story 2 as he has seen it on an LCD screen recently and it dosent look as good!!! - just shows how subjective Home cinema is!!!!

    Just read the review of the Samsung LCD - What cinema - highly rated, but I wonder how much these guys do spend on one model to another - the only negative they mentioned is brightness jumps in and out occasionaly and DNIE isnt so good on analogue sources!!!!

    ah well, glad they didnt slate it though - and surely they would of spotted the green push if it was something to worry about!!! :D green lol
     
  14. roddersmg

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    bonc.

    I read the same review, but had a number of issues with it. I have already written to the Editor! this was not a review of a TV, more a screen to watch DVD's on, IMOHO!!! Also the Samsung has a built in Freeview decoder yet no mention was made of the PQ using this source, just the comments you picked up that DNIE is not so good on Analogue sources!! and the brightness 'jump'.

    Given this very uninformed review I would not assume they would have picked up the 'green push' issue. It was enough, particularly the brightness jump, to put me off, will go back to considering the Sharp P50 series.
     
  15. andrewfee

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    Only some people seem to be seeing a green push; there isn't one on my LE32R41BX at all.

    My Colour Control is a bit useless in my opinion, it's post-processing, rather than affecting the R/G/B values directly. If you do have a green push you will be able to correct it in the service menu. (do not use this if you don't know what you're doing)

    To enter the service menus turn the set off with the remote and press:

    Info, Menu, Mute, Power.

    The set should come on and the service menus should be overlaid over the last input you were using. Go to white balance to set it.

    I would strongly recommend setting it when you've got test patterns up onscreen, such as AVIA/DVE (DVE is only £10 at "Blah DVD" just now, if you use a £2 voucher) and not doing it "by eye."

    Wow, that's incredible for a DVD. Is that a Superbit or anything? I'll have to pick it up...
     
  16. bonc

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    rodders,

    yes you are right, very generalised review. We need a more indepth review to be subjective. However they did state black levels and detailing are very good - but with regards analogue sources "who watches them anyway" lol

    Andrew,

    thanks, I may consider purchasing this disc, will it only be of use to me if I enter the service menu or can it be used for calibration purposes via the normal detail colour control menu?

    please bear in mind this green push is very subtle, you will probably not notice it untill you are really looking!. Also, there is green naturally in peoples faces, so discount that in your research. But you will see, lol, u will see.
     
  17. andrewfee

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    I realise it's subtle, but it is not there on my set. :)

    The disc should help you get your TV set up nicely without having to go into the service menus, you just won't be able to remove the green push properly, as MCC does not actually affect the RGB levels directly.

    If you make a note of the values beforehand, you should be alright in the service menus if you only adjust "white balance."

    The test pattern you should be using is one with a full greyscale bar on it. You adjust R/G/B contrast if the colour is in the lighter area, R/G/B brightness if the colour is in the darker side of the greyscale.

    When adjusting the values, if you have a green push in dark areas for example, you should remove it from the brightness. However, say you had to use -4 to get rid of it. You should then change this to -2 and add two to red/blue. It will have the same effect on removing the green push, but is a better way of doing it.
     
  18. bonc

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    Wow, thanks Andrew.

    Sounds Scary but could be very necessary!

    so if I buy this disc it will explain exactly how to do this as you describe (using my greyscale bar & white balance etc) - will it be obvious to me as were the green push is on this greyscale bar (or whatever)

    You can see I'm lost already!!

    lyris, why didnt you play around with this before you sent it back???

    I hope i dont mess things up!!!
     
  19. David Mackenzie

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    Oh believe me, I played around with it a hell of a lot (it's in my nature) - I couldn't get a picture I was happy with though.

    Nope, it's not a Superbit. Superbit's mostly just marketing jargon. In fact, there was a SuperBit release of "Panic Room" that only filled 4 gigabytes of the disc!! (The whole point of SuperBit is to use ALL of the space available to present the best quality possible). The British DVD that also had Extra Features (and was then NOT a SuperBit release) looked better.

     
  20. andrewfee

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    Fair enough. :) Does sound a bit strange with that Panic Room SuperBit disc...

    I just assumed Superbit would basically have no visible compression on the discs as it uses it all for the feature, rather than extras etc.



    The service menu really isn't as scary as it sounds. I doubt you'd actually be able to screw up an LCD, it's just that if you mess about with the convergence on a CRT you can kill it.

    When you put in the code to bring it up, you'll be presented with these menus overlaid on the screen, over whatever input you had up last.

    [​IMG]

    You'll want to go to White balance. (and the text at the bottom in yellow is the firmware version. Note: I've reset my display, which also resets the hours count, it should really be about 500-600)

    [​IMG]

    You'll want to have all your DVD player's image controls set to their defaults (usually 0) so they don't influence the calibration.

    I don't have my DVE disc yet (I used to have it and sold it, just bought it again) but you'll want to have the test-patterns in the background.

    The test pattern to set brightness is a screen with three bars on either side. You basically turn the brightness up until you can see them all, and then down until the ones on the outside disappear into the black around them.

    [​IMG]

    You'll then want to load up the "reverse grey ramps" pattern, and you should lower contrast until whites look "pure" but not dazzling. Then fine-tune from that to the point where you can see the most detail in the whites.

    [​IMG]

    This pattern should also show you if you've got a colour push.

    If you see colour in the brighter areas, you adjust it with the r/g/b gain, if it's in the darker areas, you correct it with the r/g/b offset.

    Just make sure you note the orignal values before you adjust it, and don't make huge changes either direction.

    To come out of the menus, just hit exit until you're in the main one, and power off the TV. It should just turn on normally the next time.

    Oh, and it also resets all your image settings. :)

    Images borrowed from: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2871736 - this page should also offer a similar explanation.
     
  21. mr-monday

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    Correct me if I'm wrong Lyris, but I didn't think we knew how to get into the service menue before you sent your set back?
     
  22. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    Correct, all I could change was what was in the standard "Consumer" menu. All the codes I'd been given were for the US version so I couldn't get in. So, if anyone tells me that the display can be improved a lot by tweaking service menu options then I'll believe 'em :smashin:
     
  23. mr-monday

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    Ah thought so. It's a shame these large multinationals can't arrange to have them set up properly out the box though!
     
  24. bonc

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    Andrew, thank you very much, that is excellent.

    I did notice this green push seems to be more noticable on the freeview feeds rather than analogue or HDMI/component. - very subtle at times but might be worth trying this disc.

    Ah well least I dont get tearing lol!

    Andrew, woulnt it be simpiler to just input your settings on my screen, ie rgb offset etc - as you say u dont notice any green at all - it would be interesting to see if I already have the same exact settings as you! - can you oblige? giving me the right settings for whatever i may need to input???

    or am i being dumb, and these are your exact settings as per the picture???

    Lyris,

    Thanks, get to the bottom of why your brother took off toy story 2 pal (i have that one lol) - be interesting to know what LCD he watched it on to convince him otherwise. Do you guys have some kind of technical measurement devices or all done by eye???

    check out this site...

    http://www.**********.com/reviewpage.php lol oops

    **********.com

    what the =www dvd therapy . com - all one word!
     
  25. David Mackenzie

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    It was actually the NTSC version we have. Technical measurement? No, not at all - that wouldn't be very useful in the real world. It's all done by eye. If it looks good, then it looks good. We watched Toy Story 2 again and it was my recommendation that he took it off... as good as it was, it falls short of a perfect 10/10.
     
  26. bonc

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    Wow your Harsh Lyris, That movie looks great to my untrained eye!!

    what exactly do u guys look for when you view a film (might be useful info on website)

    I mean what makes a good transfer and what dosent - give me examples of what to look for when viewing the many releases to come...

    You are right though, a good movie dosent make a good transfer!!!
     
  27. David Mackenzie

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    Bonc, are you using the NTSC or PAL version? I'll bet the PAL version looks better and actually makes use of the extra lines. The NTSC one is very good but when I say 10/10 I do mean absolutely perfect.

    The very best transfers will have plenty of detail without that "Optimized for Interlaced TVs" filtered/softened look. Also there will be no annoying edge enhancement, that's just plain annoying to look at if you have a display that gives as much clarity as an LCD. Also, there will be no obvious noise reduction used - if the film the movie was taken from was grainy (it probably was on purpose) then it should look like that on the DVD!

    For old films/cartoons that have been "remastered" this needs to be done really carefully. I was in the Wall Street Journal a few months back talking about how restoration systems used by Warner on their Looney Tunes DVDs were actually harming the image by erasing black outlines instead of helping it look better.

    Obviously there should also be as little MPEG blocking as totally possible. If I see obtrusive blocking and I look at the disc in a computer and find that the encoding team didn't use every single bit of the space available on the DVD, then there'll be hell to pay!

    I mean, there's a HUGE difference between these pictures, and this is looking at it on a computer monitor. Think of how much this matters on a big TV, or even a projector...

    This is the NTSC version of Pirates of the Caribbean on the left. It's filtered so much that it's sometimes annoying to watch. It doesn't look so bad because filtered movies are what we're used to, but then when you compare it to the crop from The Rock on the right... the fine details on the ocean have become blurred and just look blockier than they should. NTSC DVDs technically might be 480 lines, but I'll bet the number of lines actually put to good used on most films is a lot lower.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Also this picture:

    [​IMG]

    Look at Johnny Depp's hand - the filtering's destroyed the fine details. If you had to count his fingers, would you be able to tell how many there are? This all sounds very nitpicky but as I said, when you're blowing this stuff up to a bigger screen, sending it through your TV's scaler etc, you need every bit of detail that you can get.
     
  28. bonc

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    Lyris,

    I'm using both PAL and NTSC, and I dont mind saying I have just ordered the Criterion edition of the Rock NTSC! - should show me what I have (or have not) been missing!!!

    Thanks for the shots,

    I can see your point with the filtered/blocky look, but isnt it unfair to compare a distance ocean shot to a close up face shot (detail)

    do you have a clip of johnny depp (in that movie lol) for a fairer comparison.

    p.s Interlaced displays - is that what I have (samsung LCD 26r41bd)?

    p.p.s sorry i didnt come back sooner, ive been reading your brothers biog, very interesting fellow - especially when it comes to RELIGION - lol :smashin:

    edit lOOOOOOOOOL

    u read my mind - ok will look at the pic of johnny closely now
     
  29. bonc

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    U know, your right...

    I'm always looking at movies and exclaiming "look at the detail there!"

    but never looking at what I cant see, such as depps fingers - I see your point.

    But I'm glad your not saying NTSC is always better than PAL, that would give me a complex and mean I would be looking to replace all me Pal discs!!!

    wish there was a site out there that tells us what edition of a film to buy to get best transfer - PAL or NTSC - criterion or FOX etc lol
     
  30. David Mackenzie

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    That's an LCD so, it's a Progressive Scan TV. Do you have your DVD player hooked up over Component or HDMI and set to Progressive mode? That'll get you the best picture quality.

    And no, most PAL discs will look better. I also wish there was a site that told us what to buy, but I think I'm the only person that notices the differences in video transfers sometimes.

    You're right, that could have been a better comparison. But, if The Rock had been filtered in the same way that Pirates had, all that stubble on his face would be big and blocky the same way the sea is. Using similar software to (I'm guessing) what the DVD filtering people use, here's what The Rock WOULD look like if it had been optimized for interlaced TVs (left) and the original (right): Both enlarged 200%.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    It doesn't look BAD - it's just very obviously missing something.
     

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