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Samsung CRT-HDTV!

Discussion in 'TVs' started by SuperSaiyan4, Sep 30, 2005.

  1. SuperSaiyan4

    SuperSaiyan4
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    Hi guys I read an article on BBC that Samsung are releasing a CRT-HDTV which is slimmer than the usual CRT tele's and it will cost 1/3 of the price of Plasma and LCD screens.

    Anyone else know about this? Any ideas on what it looks like as in have Samsung released any info,pics or prices?

    Thanks!
     
  2. indie24

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    No pictures at the moment, only info on google
     
  3. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    its on the american samsung site, i assume its the same one, called a something something 308 something. apparantely geometry is fixed over the previous model, but i dont think it has HDMI or HDCP or accepts 720p?
     
  4. Welwynnick

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    It's called the TX-R3079WH and here's a link to pictures & a spec sheet:
    http://product.samsung.com/SamsungUSA/PRODUCT/20050630/txr3079.pdf

    There are a couple of very significant features about this set. Previous Samsung and JVC sets have offered 1080i scanning over component, but this one adds an HDMI interface, and 720p capability - big gaps previously. I think I'd like to see a 35" version, though.

    Nick
     
  5. Howard Pitfield

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    A SlimFit Sammy is already on sale in UK - but does not have 720p (only 1080i) and no HDMI socketry. It also got a terriible review in a recent glossy tech mag for picture probs.

    H
     
  6. Eiji

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    The US ver. model is known as the TX-R3080WH but the European (thus UK) version model is most likely going to be known as the WS-32Z316V.

    http://av.samsung.de/article.asp?artid=0C644D7A-6668-455A-A09D-B9A8EC2BDD00

    The V model doesn't have HD support or component inputs but maybe later Samsung will release the WS-32Z318P which will be the same as the TX-R3079WH but without the HDMI/DVI.

    Unfortunately, according to additional reports by US owners of the new model, the geometry problem is just as bad as the old model! :thumbsdow

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=577290
     
  7. Welwynnick

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    IIRC, the TX-R3080WH is a US model, and only has 1080i over component.
    The TX-R3079WH is a US model, but also has 720p and HDMI capability - very important for the UK. What we don't yet know is whether the HDMI input supports HDCP - I guess not, and that is important to.

    Screen geometry is not as important as people make out. ALL large wide flat screens have picture distortion. My Sony KV-36FS70 had a distorted picture when I got it, but I got an engineer to adjust it under warranty and the problem went away. No problem.
     
  8. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    does it actually display 720p? Or just accept it as an input then scale it to 1080i/540p? I thought that was the thing with CRTs in the US - most are 1080i only (accept 720p inputs but have to scale)

    So while they might accept all the Sky HD outputs, they probably can't be badged HD Ready (not 720 lines)

    And the HDMI is a nice touch. Still needs to convert internally to analogue, but at least allows you to connect your devices.
     
  9. ruhe

    ruhe
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    There is also the Samsung 43" CRT RPTV which accepts 1080i/50hz over component as the only HD input. I have been feeding it HDTV from my Snazio player the last few days and is really a bit sharper than the other resolutions. It really looks fantastic! So, it is not only "compatible" ( "downscaling" ) but does indeed display this or some of this resolution. It is not talked about much on the forums that you can get 43" HDTV today for around 1000 £.
     
  10. Welwynnick

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    The point with this TV is that it's the first direct view CRT TV that I have heard of that will accept 720p input, and over HDMI at that.

    It doesn't matter if it displays 720p as 1080i, it can still be HD ready. Being a CRT, it may well do that. CRTs aren't fixed pixel - they can scan their lines anywhere they like, interlaced or progressive. I guess it would be best if it did display 720p as 720p, if only to get the benefit with fast motion, and to avoid any unnecessary video processing.

    That's the sort of option that digital displays don't have. A 1080 line LCD will not be able to display 720p native - it will still have to be scaled - but that won't stop it from being HD ready.

    Nick
     
  11. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    isnt HDCP part of the spec for HDMI? ie if it doesnt have that it cant carry the HDMI logo/be classed as HDMI?
     
  12. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    Surely if it has an HDMI input then by default it supports HDCP. By definition HDMI includes HDCP. It is DVI inputs that only optionally support HDCP - not HDMI AFAIK.
     
  13. Chris Muriel

    Chris Muriel
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    Correct, HDMI incorporates HDCP ; there are , however, different revisions of both .
    My companies latest AD9880 HDMI/anlog dual interface IC says it supports Revision 1.1 of both HDMI and HDCP.
    I have not yet bothered to investigate how this might differ from earlier revisions.

    Chris Muriel, Manchester.
     
  14. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    1.1 has audio as well, not sure about 1.1 of HDCP, but its probably just updated to support audio encryption/copy protection.
     
  15. Tony B

    Tony B
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    Are you sure about that?

    i could believe that this might be so with monochrome, but not colour...
     
  16. cerebros

    cerebros
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    How else would CRT monitors work if resolution was fixed?
     
  17. chedmaster

    chedmaster
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    i always used to think there were fixed phosphors on the glass, and when electrons hit them they emitted light, if thats not what happens then what does?
     
  18. cerebros

    cerebros
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    There are fixed phosphers, as these define the maximum resolution the monitor can display, but you only achieve the maximum resolution by narrowing the width of the electron beam. To display lower resolutions, IIRC, the electron beam is made broader so that it hits more phosphers for each "pixel".
     
  19. Welwynnick

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    This comes up over and over again.

    Firstly, if a product DOES support HDCP, then the specification will say so. And in this case it doesn't.

    Secondly, almost everyone seems to believe that HDCP is obligatory with HDMI. The specification clearly states that HDCP, like other content protection schemes, are available but optional, as the implementer chooses. It is definitely not compulsory. Can't imagine why anyone wouldn't use it, but this MIGHT be an example - we can't tell yet.

    Nick
     
  20. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    This needs to be explained with shadow masks, but life is short. A shadow mask preserves the gemetric realtionaship between the position of the three RGB electron guns and the corresponding phosphor dots. Needs a picture, really.

    Yes there are fixed phosphors on the screen, arranged in vertical R, G & B stripes or bars. These are clearly seen on a TV, but not so obvious on a monitor where they are closer together. From the scanning electron beams point of view, these are effectively homogenous, so it doesn't exactly matter where on the screen the beams land, they will always hit a phosphor of the right colour.

    Think about it, what would happen if that wasn't the case? The beams cannot register exactly with every phosphor because CRT geometry is never perfect. The picture can move up and down, left and right, in tiny movements without any terrible interference or aliasing patterns that you would otherwise get.

    The really good bit is where you use three monochrome CRT tubes to generate a colour image, with CRT projectors. They do not need shadow masks, or lines, or pixels, AT ALL. If it's properly set up, nomatter how close you look, you will never see any granularity of any sort, no separate RGB colours as pixels or rainbows. A dinosaur, maybe, but flat panels are not quite a replacement.

    Sorry, got to take the kids swimming, Bye, Nick
     
  21. Tony B

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    Yes, I do understand about shadow masks, no need to draw pictures.

    Leaving aside projectors...

    ....my point is, a CRT screen has an arrangement of phosphors on the glass bit. These cannot be anything but fixed. Where the electron beams scan might vary, but the pixels stay where they are, so you cannot get the screen to display at any higher resolution than that which is dictated by the number of phosphor dots.

    Or are we agreeing...?
     
  22. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    Actually, it does matter. the HD ready spec means it needs at least 720lines of resolution. It may still be able to offer all the inputs that a 'HD Ready' set does, but it won't be able to be badged as such. Similarly to the Sharp 'p' series, which I think meet all the criteria except for actual panel resolution.

    I suppose its splitting hairs, and if you know what you are looking for it may be a solution. And it is good to actually have a CRT over here that'll take 720p
     
  23. chedmaster

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    it does have 720 lines of resolution, the question was whether it scales 720 to 1080i.
     
  24. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    if it scales 720p to 1080i, then it doesn't have 720 lines of resolution. Most CRTs in the US don't do 720p native, they convert to 1080i. Thats fine for compatibility, and it'll be fine for Sky HD etc etc (assuming HDMI whatever). But for the specific issue of the HD ready badge, it isn't enough.

    Doesn't necessarily detract from the technical capabilities of the set, but it may affect its sales potential, as more stores push the badge and thats what people look for.
     
  25. Welwynnick

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    CRTS don't work like fixed pixel displays at all, they can in principle display whatever resolution you like within the constraints of the vertical scanning refresh rate, the horizontal scan refresh rate, and the video bandwidth. All are electronics limitations. Ultimately, the phosphor stripe pitch could also be a limitation, but in practice, this is always set finer than what the electronics can manage. It has to be. You would get a disasterous image otherwise. The electron beam can never register exactly with any one particular phosphor "pixel" or line, and it doesn't try to. It is always set up so that the beam spot is bigger than the phosphors, and it always overlaps a few of them.

    Correct me if you know better, but this TV appears to be the first CRT TV that will accept 720p input. Whether it actually displays 720p is another matter, but which I think is easily resolved. A quick look at the spec reveals "Display format: 480p/1080i/720p" which clearly suggests that it does. Hooray. The reason no-one has done this before is that the horizontal scanning frequency for 720p is much higher than for 480p, 576i, 1080i or whatever, and that makes the electronics more expensive.

    I'm not clear why it matters if 720p is displayed as 1080i, though. As long as it accepts 720p and 1080i over component and HDMI, and displays at least 720 lines, then that is sufficient for HD Ready. HDR does not prescribe that a display should have 720 lines and no other number. Most HDR displays don't. They have 720, 768, 1024 or 1080, and they will accept a 720p input and scale it to native.

    The advantage that this Samsung appears to have over all the fixed pixel displays is that it can reproduce HD video in its orginating format; without any video processing ( which usually makes a nasty mess of picture quality). 30" is a bit smalller than I am looking for, but I shall look this set out. With a suitable source and correctly adjusted geometry, it has so much going for it I expect it could wipe the floor with any digital display.

    What may disqualify it from being HD Ready is HDCP capability. This isn't expressly stated in the spec, which is a surprise and disappointment. Does it do 720p to 1080i processing? Who knows. The spec suggests that it does 480i to 480p film mode de-interlacing, but there's nothing pointing towards 720p to 1080i. Fingers crossed, then.
     
  26. Eiji

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    I did state it was a US model but you are incorrect in saying that the set only does 1080i over component, most likely because the specs on the official Samsung US site are 'incomplete'.

    Its exactly the same as the TX-R3079WH specifications wise (HDMI etc) bar the cosmetic differences.

    Read the manual on the website for the TX-R3080WH.
     
  27. richard plumb

    richard plumb
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    from the EICTA guidelines for 'HD ready'


    I know its pedantic, I know its only a badge and the set may still work with all equipment that needs a 'HD Ready' TV, but I wanted to clear up this particular issue.

    And I doubt this displays 720 lines *as is*, as very few CRTs do.


    It also (kind of interestingly) addresses 15:9 screens. Seems if you have a 15:9 screen with only 720 lines of resolution, you are *not* HD Ready (you need to be able to display 720 lines at 16:9 (+/- 5%). So a 15:9 screen with 768 lines *is* HD ready, as long as it can display a properly proportioned 720p image in a 16:9 window.
     
  28. Welwynnick

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    Could be!
    And it might also have HDCP on the HDMI input. I hope so.
     
  29. Welwynnick

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    Hi Richard, there are lots of other flat panel TVs with more than 720 lines that are HD ready, so I really don't see what is the issue with this one. While it's not immaterial whether it displays 720p as 720p or 1080i, it doesn't stop it from being HD ready. There is no express requirement for progressive scanning, for example, though many will want it. If it can accept and display 1080i native, that is sufficient in itself. While desirable, not being able to display 720p native does not preclude HDR, though it looks like that is possible anyway. It is also 16:9 aspect ratio, so no problem there. However, Samsung do not make any mention of HDCP. That is not obligatory for HDMI, but it is for HD ready.

    Nick
     
  30. Nick_UK

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    Yes, you are correct. In a colour CRT there are a fixed number of dots on the screen. These dots must act in a similar way to pixels on a plasma or LCD screen. However, the situation is often worse on a shadow mask CRT screen, because of the distance between the colour dots is higher than on a plasma or LCD.
     

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