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Sam SP46L3HX vs Tosh 46WM48

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by JZEE, Jan 18, 2005.

  1. JZEE

    JZEE
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    I will be purchasing one of these two models based on feedback I've read here - thanks for the information :smashin: . Can someone actually compare these two? They are priced very similarly and I don't really need a stand that comes as standard with the Tosh. As for the Samsung, I have actually seen the SP50L7HX. Am I right in saying that the picture is very similar to the SP46L3HX's?

    Thanks.
     
  2. NPM108

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    Jazzy Jzee, the Samsung SP46L3HX is the best hands down! The tosh has its strong points but this Samsung rules :)
     
  3. welsh113

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    I would go for toshiba all the way if you go and look at the both of them in the flesh you will see for yourself but the tosh really comes into its own with hidef material of course i have the toshiba so i would say this
     
  4. JZEE

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    NPM, I agree - I've finally seen both of them and can say that whilst the Tosh is sharp, the Samsung has a more cinematic picture that's pretty impressive. Mine's on the way :clap:
     
  5. NPM108

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    Welsh interesting what you say, had a look at the Tosh and can't say it wasn't good. But when push came to shove and was time to negotiate, got the best deal on the Samsung and maybe it was that, but my mind told me it had a better picture too.

    Tried both the HD935 and HD945 player on it with different discs and was awesome. Should be getting mine next week and can't wait!
     
  6. welsh113

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    I find that the sammy loses any day of the week and i have even seen the sammy with a hidef feed which of course just highlights how much better the hd2+ chip is....of course this is debatebale as everyone with a sammy will say no thats not true and every one with a toshiba will say the tosh is the best in the end you go with your gut feeling but my gut feeling was this i had the sammy on order as they never had the tosh here and i had seen the sammy in canada (sammy is good just not as good as the hd2+ IMHO) but when it was delayed and i had a chance to actaully save 350 pound by buying a product i would have spent another couple hundred pound for!!! i jumped on it plus costcos awesome returns policy (if something comes out better in next 10 months i ust take this back full refund) It would take a fool to go with a sammy from currys!!!
     
  7. loz

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    It could well be HD material favours the Tosh's as that is a full 1280x720 chip, and you get the full impact of the sharpness it presents HD material in.
    Whereas SD material, even when upscaled from something like the HD945 looks better on the Sammy because its chip contributes to the smoothing.

    Which of course is a real dilema cause most people will want to play back existing DVDs, plus perhaps some HD material from a PC, AND be prepared for Sky HD and HD DVDs next year.

    As such, perhaps the tosh wins out as the longer term bet.
     
  8. Red1

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    I too am now trying to decide between these two.
    Although it is'nt a major issue,the tosh. would be so much
    better if the speakers were detachable or not even there.

    My question to owners of these are:

    1. Screen geometry - whats it like on both models,
    and how easy is it to enter the service menu to
    rectify any problems,deal with overscan etc.?
    (I viewed the samsung and it was running 'Monsters Inc.'
    through component on prog. scan(not a HD player though)
    it looked great but the geometry was bad, everything looked
    squashed,and yes I had the aspect ratio for the TV and DVD
    set correctly ie. 16:9/widescreen.)

    2. I dont have any Hi-Def. stuff yet,but will be running a Pioneer 575
    through component,I've seen the samsung doing this what's
    the tosh. like for this?

    3. Finally,what's Sky on scart rgb like and Xbox scart rgb like
    (Have'nt modded Xbox yet,is it worth it for 480p)?

    Many thanks in advance for any answers/opinions.

    Red1
     
  9. NPM108

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    **** Welsh you have me doubting myself now!! I'm starting to wonder whether I gave the Tosh a fair trial or not as I must admit ToshibaMalta weren't as geared up as the Samsung agent in terms of different players material to watch etc.

    Thing is they want an extra £650 for the Toshiba here, essentially it seems to be the UK model coming from the UK whereas with Samsung they come from Italy and for some reason we have better prices. Am picking up the Samsung for £1675 which I think is cheaper than the offering in the UK, but on the Toshiba he wouldn't budge much on the price.

    I created an HD DVD, well let me re-phrase, I THINK I created an HD DVD. Essentially have some Windows Media HD 720p and 1080i material which I burnt that to a DVD. The only think I've tried it on so far is my Screenplay 4805 and that looked fantastic even though natively the 4805 is only 854x480 and therefore 480p native, if I've understood this all correctly anything else 720p and 1080i is upscaled.

    The site where I am pulling them down from http://www.cinenow.com/us/vobtrailer.php3 offers 720p and 1080p Media Player HD material in WMV format and then I just convert to DVD format to write. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I can use 1080p material, I guess it just won't play?

    Will try and take that disc along to have a look at the Toshiba again.
     
  10. Demon

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    NPM108 -

    If you download a 720/1080 HD film, and 'transfer' this to DVD, so that it plays in a DVD player, then you have inadvertantly downsampled this to 480P or 576P (NTSC or PAL)..

    Even if the DVD player can upsample its output to 720P/1080i, the source material is now of a much lower quality..

    The only way to get HD downloads is via a PC..


    I haven't compared each set side by side in this manner, but the Toshiba should be better for 2 reasons
    1. It has the HD2+ chipset , which creates a much sharper/detailed image to the HD3 chipset samsung have used (The HD3 has half the mirrors, so uses them twice to create 1280*720 pixels, but this creates a slight softness as a result)
    2.Assuming you go the DVI->DVI or HDMI route - The Toshiba processes all the 720P/1080i material given via HDMI to 1080P, does all the 'nice' processing, and samples back down to 720P for display natively.. This is where the 'not 1:1 pixel mapped' observations stem from, but it does suit HD video nicely, and will be better then 1:1 pixel mapped HD video on the Samsung..
     
  11. JZEE

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    You cannot really judge a set solely by whether it's got an HD2+ or HD3. The implementation of the overall system has to be taken into account thus, this comparison is not as straightforward as one may believe. Having said that, I've done further research on this and the following seem to be facts:
    HD2+: 1. Better contrast (than HD3) therefore more overall sharpness in picture, 2. HD2+ chip tends to produce a more pixelised image when watched from a closer distance
    HD3: 1. Inferior contrast thus producing an image that is not as sharp (in the Samsung though, this seems to be less of an issue with the use of high quality Carl Zeiss lenses), 2. HD3 tends to display a cleaner image that is less pixelised and smoother.

    Lastly, it looks like the Samsung uses 7 segment technology that is thought to be superior to the Toshiba's 6 segment wheel particularly when rendering blacks - I'm not sure about this though.
     
  12. soni

    soni
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    Just stumbled accross this article:-

    Toshiba has earned our respect as an excellent video line at a fair price. The quality of their pictures, whether CRT, rear CRT projection, LCD or DLP is outstanding! Marantz still beats ‘em in plasma, but other than that, Toshiba is a remarkable value.
    Witness our 52" (35 1/4" h, 58 1/2" w, 15 1/2" d) for $3700. You’ll be very impressed. The picture speaks for itself!
    Other sizes: 46" $3000, 62" $4200. These models don’t have HD tuners on board. You don’t need ‘em if you have cable or DSS. For you over the air folks, the units with HD tuners on board should arrive in October: 46" $3400, 52" $4000, 62" $4500. Two year warranty!
    Why Toshiba DLP?
    Time marches on. While not the first to bring DLP to the marketplace with a big splash, Toshiba has refined it. Sometimes it’s better not to be in the first wave of technology. It pays to be a bit more "mature" and get it better, instead of first!
    TALEN LIGHT ENGINE
    Toshiba’s patented Talen Light Engine is state of the art! Talen is Toshiba’s own design engine. They don’t settle for using the stock Texas Instrument engine, or the new budget Gold Star (LG) engine. Talen is unique for several reasons.
    It delivers the brightest picture available! It starts with a 120w metal halide lamp. Competitors use a 100w lamp. Toshiba allows you to adjust the temperature if you’d rather run it at 100w. That’s the first head start.
    Secondly and more importantly, Toshiba uses the HD2+ DLP chipset, the most sophisticated in the DLP industry. The HD2+ provides mirror resolution of 720x1280. The other guys use the less expensive HD3 chipset. You would think that would be better since the number is higher. NOT. The HD3 only resolves to 720x640.
    With the Toshiba design one pixel is dedicated per mirror. With HD3 there are two pixels used per mirror, limiting resolution and brightness. Scaling is consequently smoother and more refined with Toshiba because each pixel has its own mirror for improved resolution.[/
    B]THEATER FINE SCREEN WITH ANTI GLARE COATING
    Toshiba uses a new screen technology called Superfine Pitch Contrast. The definition and precision are a cut above the standard screens source by the other DLP sources. This uses an anti glare coating to avoid reflection of ambient room light and provide deeper black level performance.
    INSTANT RESTART
    Toshiba is the only company to have instant restart. Suppose you’re watching a show and some kid hits the off button by mistake. With all other brands, when you turn the unit back on, there is approximately a three minute turn on process. With Toshiba’s design they can achieve instant restart.
    PIXEL PURE PROCESSING
    Toshiba’s unique Pixel Pure processing, a Seine Processor, has a REAL TIME oversampling rate of 6.2 million. Everyone else uses a 4 million "cashing" oversampling circuit. While not shabby, the other guys "memorize" the picture and sample, while Toshiba does it 33% more proficiently and in REAL TIME.
    The main advantage of this processing is a smoother diagonal picture due to more sampling points. Toshiba has a unique Dynamic Contrast Enhancer circuit as well.
    DIGITAL VELOCITY SCAN MODULATION
    This new technique of VSM is done in the digital domain and provides a faster transition from dark to light and superior black level performance. Toshiba has a Color Detail Enhancer circuit on board.
     
  13. mightybyte

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    Soni, where did you get this article from?

    I've been looking at the Toshiba website and their catalog here in UK, but some of the technologies and terms you mentioned are not discussed.

    Could it be that some of these US technologies are not implemented in the UK.

    I'm talking about terms like 'talen light engine', 'instant restart', 'pixel pure processing, 'Seine Processor', 'dynamic contrast enhancer', 'VSM', 'color detail enhancer'... which are not being promoted in the UK, as incorporated in the Toshiba range...

    Can you enlighten please...
     
  14. soni

    soni
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    I can't remember which website it was on now, but i wouldn't rely to much on their online specification or indeed their catalogue for that matter, as they are not overly specific in the specification department - if that makes sense!

    As for the colour detail enhancer, that is listed on their website, i've just taken a quick look, as for the instant restart facility, the sets got that to! If you select quick restart on the menu, you can turn the set off for up to 6 minutes and it will restart immediately.

    Hope the above helps!
     
  15. JZEE

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    It does smell of marketing hype if you ask me. "TALEN LIGHT ENGINE", "PIXEL PURE PROCESSING" and the like may sound very catchy but I would really have a look at both. After all, Samsung also boast a lot about their "DNIe engine" and their "Dynamic Black" system and other stuff which is not on the Tosh.

    Speaking of DNIe, I found a good article detailing the improvements that are supposed to be expected with DNI - have a look at http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1153389,00.asp .

    You may also want to have a look at http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1433482,00.asp - it states that the HD3 is the way forward since it manages to drive the cost down AND improves image quality via "SmoothPicture" (oops another buzzword).....
     
  16. momex

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    Another link here http://www.digiupdate.com/105_DLP_RPTV.html
    According to this HD3 replaces the old HD2 which the toshiba has and NOT HD2+ as everyone thinks!?
    HD2+ has a contrast ratio of 2500:1 and the current toshs have a contrast ratio of 1000:1 (http://www.home-entertainment.toshiba.co.uk/consumer/products.nsf/specs/dlphdtv-46wm48?opendocument)... see the table in the above link.
    So technically the Samsung is better as it has a better/newer chip. But both are poor compared to the new DLPs due to come out later this year in the US...with contrast ratios reaching 10,000:1 and resolutions of 1920x1080!
    The new 45" Sagem uses HD2+ chip,which can only mean it's better than both tosh and samy. Check it out here av forums
     
  17. Razor

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    Thanks for the links momex. I have a RD65 and would love to upgrade to a 71 inch set or bigger. Things are looking rosey. :)
     
  18. JZEE

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    Momex,

    I'm assuming that there is really a typing error on the Toshiba site. Even though I think the Samsung is slightly better picture-wise, I do not expect Toshiba to come out with the older HD2 which would also produce an inferior contrast as well :rolleyes: .
     
  19. Les

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    MOMEX
    I have a Toshiba on order - expected this week. You are certainly confusing the issue by stating it does not have the HD2+. All the information I can find suggests it does have HD2+ and not HD2.

    My supplier states:

    Toshiba - 52WM48 » Features
    Visible Screen size 132cm
    1280 X 720 resolution panel
    HD2+ chip
    1 HDMI port

    Even the first link you supplied, under the heading 'Toshiba Drops LCoS, joins DLP', it stated Toshiba using HD2+ during 2004 for the new models (at that time). I can't see any mention of HD2 or HD2+ in your second link. I have read in this forum that many believe Toshiba to be very conservative in their Contrast claim.
     
  20. Demon

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    I see some confusion here.. but that's fine, as things look confusing...

    FACTS
    1, The Toshiba 46/52wm48 has the HD2+ chipset..
    2. Toshiba only quote 1000:1 contrast ratio, as this is a 'practically' measured value, not some 'theoretical' maximum that can't be achieved with normal viewing..

    Other then that... the main difference is HD2+ Vs HD3..

    "Smooth N soft" Vs "Hard N detailed" I think sums it up...
     
  21. soni

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    Demon: Are you sure that the Tosh 46wm48p has the HD2+ Chip? I am already an owner of the Tosh DLP, and whether it has or hasn't really doesn't bother me as I am absolutely fascinated with the picture quality on DVD's via HDMI!

    However, i've read a lot of threads on this website over the past few months, and like you, many people state the 46wm48p has the HD2+ Chip.

    Also, others have also said that the 46wm48 is the American 46hm84 from the states, however i've been discretely surfing this afternoon whilst at work, and reached the conclusion that there’s no-way that the 46wm48 could be the 46hm84 because the hm84 features pip and a contrast ratio of 2200:1 and does include the HD2+ chip - this information is from the Tosh Website in the states!

    So to summarise, if the HD2+ chip was in the 46wm48 the contrast ratio would be the same as the hm84 - 2200:1, but it's only half of that which leads me to believe that its only the HD2?

    I would really like to know which chip it has in it, and would welcome any factual information that people might have come across whilst browsing - although there doesn't seem to be a lot out there!
     
  22. momex

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    I have your answer tosh is HD2+ :oops: , http://www.toshiba.de/consumer/products/4/
    It also states while the resolution is 1000:1 the panel is 2500:1 whatever that means!

    For non owners of the Toshiba you can look at the manual and extra information like viewing distance at http://tesc.toshiba.co.uk this is a direct link but i am not sure if it will work.
     
  23. momex

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    Samsung manuals can be found here or pdf file.

    The samy boasts a contrast ratio 1500:1 and WXGA pc connection,there is a lot in the manual about this.
     
  24. soni

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    WELL DONE MOMEX!!!!!

    I was searching for about two hours this afternoon trying to find that information!

    So the HD2+ Chip It Is Then!!!!!!
     
  25. NPM108

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    Momex, good that the chip issue has been clarified. I had read that Tosh prefer to give the realistic contrast ratio rather than what the panel is rated to.

    You mention the new DLP TVs coming out soon in the states with monster contrast ratios and resolutions. Indeed it seems that with TI's push to promote DLP technology it is becoming alot like the PC Graphics card market perhaps. As soon as you buy one card (or in this case type of DLP chip) a new one comes out or is on the way. HOWEVER, trust me the price tag for these super new sets is going to be very very high and for some ppl, certainly me at least, way out of my budget range! In that respect am happy to also have my 106 inch 16:9 pic with my PJ!!

    For us folks in Europe, HDTV is still not here, and no DVD player can give 1080p yet so would still be a waste for now as prices will come down, though I'm sure some other new DLP chip will then be out!!
     
  26. KableMan

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    Hi JZEE - Did you get your samsung? If so what do you think of it? I've been trying to decide between the Tosh and Samsung for some time and would appreciate your thoughts please.

    I've been struggling to see a decent demo of the Toshiba because my local comet has a terrible feed, whereas currys have a DLP demo running on the samsung which shows it in a better light. I'm concious that this is not a fair comparison. I've also been following the HD2+ vs HD3 debate but its difficult to know what practical difference this makes - especially when you need to take a car journey to try and compare models. What do you mean when you say the samsung is "more cinematic"?

    Also were you aware of the blurring issue on the Toshiba and if so how influential was this on your decision - have you seen anything similar on the samsung? I've read that the samsung's 7 segment wheel helps it in this respect.

    Sorry for all the questions - i've read so much and the forums are great but they never quite answer your exact questions. So any feedback would be really appreciated.

    Cheers
    KableMan
     
  27. JZEE

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    Unfortunately, I am STILL waiting for the Sammy - it has not been delivered yet; hopefully sometime next week....will let you know how it goes.

    With more 'cinematic' I am referring to the actual look of the picture. On HD2+ models, it does appear slightly sharper but it also gave me the impression of sort of watching it on a computer screen. As for the blurring issue, no it is only now that I have started hearing about this.

    Also note that the seven segment wheel should also help in removing grains in black that are more apparent on models with six segments.

    As Demon said earlier ""Smooth N soft" Vs "Hard N detailed" I think sums it up..."
     
  28. albertz

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    i chose the toshiba over the sammy because the tosh's picture was much sharper, to me that was the end of the debate
     
  29. NPM108

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    Hi Albertz, am curious to know how you compared the two sets though? Were they both running in store feeds, or both running Component/DVI from the same DVD player.

    I have been following with interest what ppl say in the forum about comparing TVs and in my opinion you can only do a true comparison if you use the same source materials (ie. Same DVD player, the same cables and the same set of DVDs).

    So am curious for you to quantify your statement :cool:
     
  30. loz

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    To make your comparison dilema worse, I would suggest the compasion is only really valid when using HD source materials.

    It is proably only then that the benefits of a sharper HD2+ chip are going to shine through compared to the HD3.
    Furthermore, the HD3 might actually appear better with SD material (even if it is scaled up to HD res - it still ins't HD) - because it gives that more cinematic material that smooths out the artefacts. Whereas, it won't do full justice to true HD materials.

    Whether HD is of importance to you is a different question of course - but it does seem to be a key factor in why people are considering these sets in the first place, so to then not go for the best HD performance seems a bit of a contradiction to me...
     

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