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Sagems, Samsungs and the whole HDTV thing.

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Mark H99, Mar 20, 2005.

  1. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    OK, as you know i've been around the forums now for some time, I originally came here thinking of getting a Sony lcd rear pro, then I changed to a plasma, and finally a DLP rear pro.

    I get close to making my mind up then i read a comment on here and it changes my mind a little,

    Of the sets I've seen in the flesh I only really like the two sagems, for me the samsung is too dominant, and will not fit in our front room.
    Of the two Sagems, I much prefer the 50 to the 45, having seen the two side by side, and been able to play with them both I just prefer the 50's design and picture, I don't really have much against the 45, it seems a bit bright to me, but i suspect that's just settings.
    What I could really do with from you guys is a definative answer to the questions below, well as defiative as possible, I'm sorry if it's been asked before, but I'm going to make my decesion and buy it tomorrow.

    1) Will Sagem ever fix the HDMI issue on the 50?
    2) Recent information suggests Sky HD will use component at least short term, do you think that's correct? and will freview HD (or whatever it is by then) use component, and how soon do you think HD will be mainstream?
    3) If I get an HD DVD player will I be able to connect it to the DVI on the 50 and have it work ?
    4) finally if the answer to the first 3 are all negative, do you think there will be an adaptor available in the future to allow me to view HD on the 50 ?
    5) Are there any other issues with the 50 apart from the HDMI? cause to me the picture is superior to all the other DLP sets I've seen (not seen the optoma).

    I intend to use it for our main TV, so sky, DVD, Xbox and PS2 and PC through DVI.
    Now i realise it's a bit like asking you guys to give me next weeks lottery numbers, but I've pretty much decided on the 50 Sagem and I just want to go into it knowing as much as I can about the situation.
    Thanks in advance for your help,
    Mark
     
  2. mistycat

    mistycat
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    Simple, regardless of what you here, no to them all. For a start the new generation of dvds are coming out with component but hdmi as the main connection (the new international standard). All you need to do is read through the forums in relation to what you will be able to play and not play. Sagem have said that the 50 will not meet the standard now that hdcp is going to dominate (although people will disagree and be very specific).

    Let me get this right, you are going to spend lots of money on a tv that may or may not work with the new technology, including dvd (new generation), sky (new generation), or possibly the stb's (hdmi will be needed for all hdcp material - that is most material)?
     
  3. Bruce1310

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    I agrre totally. You need to look for HDMI/DVI (HDCP).

    B.K
     
  4. Razor

    Razor
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    Hello Mark

    Choosing the right TV can be a real nightmare. You obviously want to get the best and most futerproof DLP for you money. What you dont want is to buy a set and see your second choice set in a shop producing a better picture than the one you bought.

    In answer to your questions.

    1. Everyone is still unsure as to this situation. Looks like no at the moment. If posible it would require a new board. The RD50 in the US which is the same machine has had a swapped board for HDCP.
    2. Sky probably will use component for certain channels and certian programs. But if I understand correctly they will phase this service out over time and eventually discontinue it. Seeing as most peoples sets arent HDTV compatible they will all have to purchase new displays to use HD Sky. This means that all new the new sets are being made have a DVI/HDMI with HDCP.
    3. This is unknown. 99% of the dvd players wont work because of the HDCP but you might get some smart japanesse company design a dvd player which get round this. But this a gamble. Also how good would the quality of picture be (evan though it is high def) if it from cheap components. I would rather have a pioneer, denon, sony etc.
    4. No.3 answers this question. Totally unkown if a device will be aviliable.


    By looking at the your equipment list I see you have a pc connected up to the DLP set. I personally thik you should go for the Optoma RD50 as it has a newr chip, external looks are the same and has HDCP. If you have a pc connected the region 1 issue should bother you if you set it up correctly. Easily done.

    If you really dont want the Optoma I am affraid that you will be taking a gamble, which may or may not pay off. All I can say is that HD is amazing viewing and I can totally understand the hard choice you will have to make.
     
  5. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    thanks for the fast replies :)
    Razor you are right, I don't really want to buy the 45 knowing that I prefer the 50. The Optoma would be a good choice for me I agree, but I haven't seen one in the SW, any of you guys know where I might see one, I'm prepared to travel to Bristol.

    As far as the 5 goes, basically there is a shop in my area selling it's display 50 with Stand for £1499, they don't even have it turned on because the picture is obviously better than the 45 and IMO the sammy (sorry misty, just my opinion though), I had to ask the gut to switch it on, he pretty much told me they were willing to negotiate on the price too so I was going to offer £1250 and be prepared to take my chances with the whole HDTV thing. then if I choose to go HDTV in 4 or 5 years when it's mainstream, there's either a work around for the HDMI think, or it get's put into my newly (don't tell MRS 99) equipped games room, and I get a new main TV ! Do you think that's sensible for that sort of money or Should I wait and see the RD50 in the flesh
     
  6. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    damm i can't type tonight, really need to go to bed :boring:
     
  7. Razor

    Razor
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    I think you owe your self a demo of an RD50. You've put in a lot of effort in finding the right set. Phone Optoma and ask where you can demo a RD50 in the flesh, speak to someone in sales. If you can get the Sagem for £1250 then that is a offer which would need serious consideration.

    On one hand its a cheap price for a good quality DLP set and on the other its alot of money for something which might not be compatible with new technology.

    We are only seeing 50% of these HD DLP sets potential with normal DVD's, sky, cable, etc. HD is where these sets break free and come to life.

    View the Optoma and set your mind at rest. I have seen both and there isnt that much in it. Sagem has the slightly bright/glaring whites a trate of the HD2 chip. This isnt noticeable with the RD50 as it has the improved HD2+ chip which is known to correct this fault.
     
  8. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    thats good advice Razor, will phone Optoma on Monday
     
  9. St_ve

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    None of your questions have a definative answer apart from the first one
    The Sagem does not have a HDMI input but it is not an issue as it's got a DVI input
    The issue is lack of HDCP on the DVI input you would not be able to connect a DVD player which has an HDCP enabled DVI or HDMI output
    The Sagem at £1250 is a steal very good picture at the price
    Still worth it at £1500 but the lack of HDCP if there is no fix will start to hurt by 2007
    My advice is go for the Optoma RD50 worth every penny .Texas instruments who make the DLP part of the set say they will last in excess of 20 years every time you replace the bulb they are as good as new, that's a long time to think about how much better the picture might have been.
     
  10. hifiboom

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    if you get the Sagem at £1250 with stand that is A TOTAL STEAL ( remember when they released the set it was £4500 without the stand!!!!!!!!!!!)
     
  11. Razor

    Razor
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    Hifiboom

    Is that the original retail price for the Sagem 50', £4500. Wow I didnt know that. More than my RD65.
     
  12. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    Well I'm going to wait and try and see an RD50 this week, just hope they don't sell the the Sagem this week. St_ve your right about the HDMI, I meant HDCP through DVI, Do all DVD players that use a DVI connectioin use HDCP?
    If I use my PC as a DVD player will it also use HDCP, I'm not sure how it works? :blush:
    I do like the design of the Sagem 50, much more so than the 45, I like the Sammy but as I've said it just wouldn't look right in our house. So it's probably good that the RD50 looks much like the Sagem 50. If I could just get Optoma to knock a little off for the 60 hz issue I'd be very happy :clap:
     
  13. chienmort

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    I spoke to a contact at Sky and this is what I was told:

    1. There will be a new STB aimed at High Defintion.
    2. Existing STBs will not and cannot work.
    3. High Def Output will be HDMI(DVI) with HDCP ONLY.
    4. There will be and analogue component output BUT it will be scaled down to standard def (576p 50Hz or maybe 625i 50Hz).
    5. As of the next premiership season (August 2005) ALL football on Sky will be shot HD.
    6. 35mm films are already HD so Movies and sprot will be ready for switch on.
    7. Whether 720 or 1080 is used will depend on the owner or manager of the channel. As there will be extra cost, don't expect too much 1080. Remember a lot of channels screened by Sky are not owned by them.
    8. Finally. what is the screen resolution of a hid def screen.

    720 p------ 1280 x 720 so this is the minimum res to get full definition from the screen.

    1080i ------ 1920 x 1080 so this is the minimum res to get full definition from the screen.

    9. Please remember that no one part of the spec will give you the whole picture (sorry for the pun). My sources aslo say that true 1920x1080 LCD screens shown to one broadcaster have been rejected as the lag makes them virtually useless.

    10. If you want to choose between two or more screens the only way to do it is by a direct comparison using a lot of different material in a shoot out. Use test signals ONLY for set up as you don't watch test signals.

    Finally don't use any animation to check a picture. they always look good. That is why you see Shrek and Toy Story so much.

    Hope this helps! :lesson:
     
  14. St_ve

    St_ve
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    chienmort good news about Sky shooting in hidef this year .
    The TV shows shot in hidef in America & shown over here look really good hopefully football will an improvement as well Godknow's it need's it on Sky. :thumbsup:
    There should be a sticky for the DLP section on how to demo the different sets , problems to look out for & any settings to use.
     
  15. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    Thanks chienmort thats good information,
    St_ve & Razor, will the 60 hrz issue with the optomas have an impact in the future? what I mean is when HD is the norm will that be a 50hz or 60hz type of picture. As I don't have any region 1 DVD's it's not a real issue for me plus i have a kick arse pc so I could use that as you've said already. but when HD arrives the optoma will be ok with it ? no juddering?

    that might seem like a really stupid question to you :p but to me it makes perfect sense, :) as i don't really know how the whole HD format thing works. well I understand the resolution thing but not the HZ thing !!!

    So whilst the Sagem 50 at £1250 or whatever I could get it for under £1499 would seem like a good deal right now, I probably would regret it in a couple of years. that's all I wanted to know really, and I think you have all answered it. YES I would regret it by the end of 2006 if not before.
    Thanks
    Mark
     
  16. hifiboom

    hifiboom
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    thats an interesting question Mark!!! manufactors get the "HD Ready"logo only if the set can display both 50hz and 60hz. So a US-nascar race could be send at 60Hz and transfered to europe... and then played too as 60Hz

    could be a problem for the Rd50 but I think most material will be 50 Hz here.
     
  17. St_ve

    St_ve
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    No there are some older models that have DVI but no HDCP
    There are a couple of cheaper DVD players that have DVI out but reviews have said that the picture was better by component
    A top DVD player like the Denon 3910 does not work with DVI out to the Sagem 50 because the Sagem lacks HDCP
    The PC works fine with DVI & i presume HDCP on the RD50
    I am not sure about the Sagem 50 with DVI and a PC
    No harm haggling with Optoma
     
  18. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    I've emailed Optoma about the RD50 and where I can buy from or demo in the SW hopefully they will get back to me on Monday. Thanks for all the advice, like I said just wanted to get as much genuine info as possible. I know a lot of it is still conjecture and speculation atm, my other option is to hold on until the situation is clearer but I'm really wanting to get a set now while I have the money and before my wife finds something else we really need.
     
  19. Razor

    Razor
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    Mark if you get no joy on the email. Phone optoma and ask to speak to Roy Stonebank tell him razor sent you. He's a good bloke and I am sure he will help you out.
     
  20. St_ve

    St_ve
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    Everything i've seen so far points to 50hrz in Europe for hidef.
    i suppose they could abandon 50 Hrz in Europe sometime in the future & go to maybe 72Hrz movies are made at 24 frames a second & this would give 3:3 pulldown , no judder & perfect timing. Maybe they will start filming movies at 60 frames a second ? who knows for sure what's round the corner
    This is pure speculation on my part i havent heard anything.

    Considering all the problems with DLP sets plan your demo well but make damm sure you do get a demo. :thumbsup:
     
  21. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    well I've had a response from Optoma, the sets are available to demo from Sevenoaks sound and vision, or buy direct from www.hifibitz.co.uk the price is still £1995 and the stand an extra £300, I'm off on wed so will make an effort to demo one, also using my xbox on 60 hz.
     
  22. St_ve

    St_ve
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    Mark Audiovision are offering the stands at half price
     
  23. Razor

    Razor
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    Try Sarner, ask for Ross, Tell him John with the RD65 sent you. ;)


    Private message for contact number
     
  24. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    that's cool thanks, I'm going to take my xbox to any demo I have, hopefully be able to try it on 50 and 60 hz settings. on the small off chance it's judder free on xbox and only judders on region 1 DVD's :lease: which I wont be too bothered about cause I have none :rotfl:
    I have a good feeling about it, read the review about picture quality, If I can get my head past the whole region 1 thing this could be the set for me. :clap:

    guys do you know if audivision have premises where I can demo? or are they internet only? and Razor is that Audivisions contact number or someone else ?
    many thanks
    Mark
     
  25. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    I've phoned Sevenoaks in Bristol and they don't carry them in stock and can't offer a demo, he suggested London, but i'd rather not have to drive to london (well not without getting a sizeable discount :p)
     
  26. Razor

    Razor
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    Mark these are the people I was recomended by Optoma.

    All the dealers do is phone Optoma and place the order. Optoma then send a company that they hire to unpack and install the set in your house. The installers have been on a course on how to install the RD range. The set never comes from the dealer. So it doesnt matter which company you use. You will get same the same service and guarantee. The price of the RD50/RD65 just depends on how greedy the supplier is.

    Sorry I have never used audiovision.

    I will remove the telephone number from the above post, and will only give out if requested by private message.
     
  27. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    OK Razor no probs, I understand now thanks.
    I'm going to email Optoma again when I get home to see if they know anywhere this side of London who can offer a demo,If not my father in law lives in Bermondsey, so I could stay with him tue night and get a demo on Wednesday somwhere, there is bound to be somewhere along Tottenham Court Road :)
     
  28. Razor

    Razor
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    Go to Optoma head quaters in Watford which is just outside of north london. They have a demo room all set up. You can see the RD65 there as well. Tottenham court road isnt what it used to be, I think the internet has killed it off in a big way.

    Half the shops are gone and the ones that are left sell more run of the mill gear and no real high end merchandise. I dont know if harrods or selfridges stock this item, but evan selfridges displays are no where near as vast as it used to be say 5-6 years ago. From what I have seen it looks like more and more people are ordering on the net. Price rules. :)
     
  29. Trickyricky

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    Whatever you do,get the sagem. I just had mine delivered for the cool price of 1599 and im blown away. My mate spent 3 grand last year on a 42 inch plazzi and his picture is nowhere close to mine. I currently run my pioneer dv 737 dvd player through some very good monster thx cert component cables and its the best i have seen yet! I connect my pc through the dvi set it to 1280 768 etc and its a pin sharp 50 inch moniter.......as it all goes, i really wouldnt worry about anything. Just go with the flow and believe in yourself and not with all this hd nonsence....apparently sagem will upgrade as a goodwill gesture anyway.........WHY WORRY!!
     
  30. Mark H99

    Mark H99
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    well i'm still in the process of trying to find a Optoma to demo, I've narrowed my choice down to the sagem 50, the optoma 50 or the samsung 46 which is the olny other dlp i've still to demo
     

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