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SAGEM : Who's wrong, Who's right.

Discussion in 'Televisions' started by Mose, Jan 27, 2005.

  1. Mose

    Mose
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    Right,

    I finally got a visit today from SAGEM engineer regarding the terrible picture I am getting via AV7 (component/progressive scan input). His immediate view was that the AV6 input was to be used for progressive scan via component leads. So, I immediately challenged him and said that was incorrect.

    I explained that I am using the "interlaced" AV6 input for Xbox and PS2 via dedicated Monster Xbox/PS2 cables, again I was told I had these plugged into the wrong inputs.

    So.....he fiddled about with it all for a bit, told me that he would be back to do a software upgrade at somestage and in the process of conversation, he managed to get a perect picture from my Denon 3910 via input AV6 and said "Voila, you had it all plugged into the wrong input".

    This pee'd me off slightly and I showed him the reference from the AXIUM manual, where it illustraes that AV7 is for progressive scan, and my 3910 is set up to output progressive scan as illustraed. He just told me that was wrong.

    So once he had left, and me being me, I unplugged all of this again, stuck it back in AV7 and typically I cannot get that picture back from AV6 or AV7, but the picture I saw today with I-Robot, was the best I have yet seen, better than the current RGB picture I am getting.

    So c'mon, please put me pout of my misery, who's right and who's wrong here. I am still convinced that the 3910 should be plugged into AV7.

    Regarding hardware upgrades for the HD-D50, he was a bit lock-lipped about this issue, but told me that SAGEM are inundated with complaints and requests for upgrades to combat the HDCP issue on the DVI port, and also said that it would take them months to get around everyone to do the upgrade. He also said that if an upgrade was made available free of charge from SAGEM , then it wouldnt be as simple as upgrading a single board. So I said, "Am happy with that, I just want to watch my movies via HDMI/DVI like I was lead to believe from the sales staff at COMET".
     
  2. johnsagem

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    I think the manual does contain a mis-print. I'm not at home at the moment, but from the back of the TV, the Interlaced inputs are on the right, the Progressive scan ones are on the left.

    Sagem suggested I should upgrade to a progressive scan player, I certainly get a fantastic picture from my D-VHS on the progressive input (as you'd expect from a 1080 line source).

    I'm thinking about selling my Arcam DV88 on Ebay and buying a Denon 1910, but I'd really like to see one in action before I embark on the progress.

    I'm glad that people are complaining to Sagem on the HDCP issue. It's too easy for them otherwise to sweep the issue under the carpet, then when HD sources are finally available, tell us that our TVs are 2 years old and there is nothing they can do.

    I saw the specs for the LG Blu-Ray player - Firewire and DVI socket with HDCP - no mention of component outputs. I also saw an article where they reckon that if Blu-Ray/HD DVD players do have componet outputs fitted then the picture will be scaled down to 480p.

    I don't mind paying for an upgrade (within reason) and I'm not in a desperate rush (though if I buy a denon I wouldn't like to plug it in to the DVI socket - despite the arguments over whether it really does give a noticably better picture). I just don't want them sweeping the issue under the carpet until it is too late.

    It may just be coincidence, but it does seem a little odd that they let the internet rumours that they were to do the upgrades free go unabated, until just before they start shipping the new model.

    Sagem have quickly gained a great reputation in the home cinema market for themselves, it would be a shame if that were dented by bad feeling on this issue.
     
  3. Mose

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    Thanks for the reply John.

    I have fiddled about with the connections again, and I am back to sqaure one, exactly where I was the week the set arrived. If I connect my 3910 via AV6 I get a split screen which like to scroll vertically at random. If I then re-configure the 3910 to play interlaced via AV6 then I do get a picture, but I have seen better 3rd generation VHS pictures.

    If I hook it up to AV7 and again reconfigure it to play progressive scan, then I get the same picture as before, the one that I have been complaining about, with that same strange green tint. Arggggghhhhh, going to call em back out I thinx. I have posted a few pics of the differece between RGB and Component on the "SHow us yours....." thread under THIS thread to give an idea of picture difference. Although the camera doesnt really capture it that well.

    I think you are right about ppl complaining to SAGEM, I popped by COMET on my way home tonight and asked them specifically whether or not SAGEM have identified the HDCP issue to them. Well......they havent, but the guy at my local COMET did say that they hve sold pallet loads of these sets, he has one as well, as do half the ppl who work there, and they are just beginning to get customers returning with their issues around the HDMI/DVI connection. He wasnt aware of this himself until quite a few ppl visited the store and raised their concerns. He also told me that COMET will not replace the set (on these grounds) unless SAGEM themselves warrant an exchange.


    SEEMS LIKE THE FIGHT IS ON!!!!!!
     
  4. stew222

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    Went into comet tonight for a browse and the salesman told me that they have received confirmation in writing (fax) from Sagem that an upgrade will be made available. I'd pop back in tomorrow and ask to see the fax but I live an hour away. If you're handy for comet, you could ask locally. The branch I was in was Paisley. The cynics amongst us would say it was a sales pitch???

    I think the 50 is the best looking of all the sets in my budget but, because of the uncertainty, I'm going to wait to see what the definitive answer is.

    Comet also tell me they're getting a shipment of the Sagem 45 in the next couple of weeks and it'll be retailing for the same price as the 50. I'll wait to see it but my preference just now would be news that the 50 will be upgraded and that the price will drop because of the arrival of the 45.
     
  5. Mose

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    Thanx for that Stew,

    Seems to me that most sales staff these days (in the retail sector) dont know jack about the items they are selling. The impression I got from the guy I spoke to today at COMET was that his store was inundated with SAGEM customers who had been expressing their disappointment in a product that has been sold with misleading advice.

    My set was sold to me under the same advice, that software and hardware upgrades would be available in the new year. My view was that if the upgrades werent available, it is still a great set that gives a great picture. Having said that, after reading the concerns from other owners who use this forum, my concerns have grown since the word coming from SAGEM seems to be varied.
     
  6. St_ve

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    Mose check out the RD50/65Manual thread for an example of customer support
    it might cheer you up i very much dobt if Sagem cud be as bad :suicide:
     
  7. Mose

    Mose
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    Nice one ST_VE, thank God I am not on my own. and yes it made me smile!!

    I wonder what Trading Standards would think about all of this?? Hhhhhhmmmmmmmmm
     
  8. Mose

    Mose
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    ST_VE,

    Do you have any views over what the engineer told me today. I havent seen a RD-50 in the flesh, but am lead to believe that the HD-50 and RD-50 are pretty much the same, so I figure that the circuitry must be the same.

    For the life of me I just cannot get a decent picture from the AV7, which is supposed to give me progressive scan. Engineer seems to think that AV6 is progressive, but its NOT it bloody interlaced.
     
  9. watersa@ntlworl

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    My dvd is connected to AV7 progressive & picture perfect. The manual says AV6 & is wrong the back off the set is correctly marked AV6 interlaced AV7 progressive
     
  10. St_ve

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    I'm afraid i can't help u mose i'm pretty much a newbie at this AV side of things.I got excited this morning when i had a parcel from Optoma with the manual it came at 0800 i only requested it at 1430 yesterday.Nice service Optoma ! pity its exactly the same as i downloaded a couple of weeks ago
    with the adition of a warenty card.I was told it would have information about care of the screen ect
    :suicide: :( =
     
  11. Mose

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    I'm glad that not all manufacturers are like this.......if BMW were this bad and didnt offer the level of customer support that they do, I would have driven my M3 through their showroom window by now!! They bend over backwards to help you out and give you a good service. Can't really say the same for SAGEM mind you.


    *****Can't really say the same for SAGEM mind you.I have to take this back.....SAGEM have been very good over the last few days.
     
  12. know it all

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    the av 6 port is most definately interlaced...... and the av7 port is most definately progressivre scan........
    have you set your dvd to progressive mode in the pal standard..? becuase when you installed the axium and picked the country you were in (UK i take it) the axium atoumatically selects the pal standard...
    Again as i have said many times before ...there will never be a hard ware upgrade so the set recieves hdcp it will only accept hdtv signals..... the software upgrade (063 ..which shows as 062 on yuor sets OSD ..which by the way is exactly the same as 062
     
  13. Max Skye

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    Despite the unhelpful user manual stating that you have to set the resolution of devices attached to the DVI input to lower than 1024 * 768 and failing to list support for any widescreen modes it does support 1280 * 720.

    I am running software version #063 and the graphics card is ATI Radeon 9800 XT pro. I had to down load a free software package from the ATI site called Catalyst 4.1 in order to get the widescreen option.

    The image quality of good DVDs like Lord of the Rings, extended edition, is significantly better than using my DVD via any analogue input despite the fact that presumably the DVD/ CD writer combo is inferior to quality stand alone DVD players.

    Therefore there is a way around the HDCP issue, albeit an expensive one, viz purchase a video scaler and modified DVD player, set top box with a Serial Digital Interface (SDI). SDI does not carry encryption of any sort and also as it is an unprocessed digital signal, unlike HDMI/ HDCP-DVI, it gives better quality results from the video scaler.
     
  14. loz

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    Except that isnt a way around for future HD content that requires HDCP is it?

    I know no one's seen one yet, but I can't imagine a Sky HD box (or other HD hardware) being so easily modifiable to allow an unencypted HD signal - otherwise what would be the point of making such a fuss over HDCP?
     
  15. Max Skye

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    Well yes Loz, hopefully it will be a way around the Sky HD issue for us. You can purchase both the standard and Plus versions of Sky Digital set top boxes modified with SDI output on the web. The following link gives details from one supplier;
    http://www.pluggedin.tv/cat--Sky-Digital--Sky+Digital

    When Sky Digital HDTV boxes appear it should still be easy to modify them for SDI output because HDCP is a hardware encryption system i.e. it is not encoded in the broadcast software. The HDCP circuits follow after the MPEG decoder therefore the SDI mod just have to tap off the digital stream before it reaches the HDCP circuit.

    Even if Sky decides to incur the expense of developing a combined MPEG decoder/ HDCP chip the raw MPEG digital stream can be tapped off, there is plenty of MPEG decoding circuits around
     
  16. loz

    loz
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    that's a very big assumption....
     
  17. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    If the display devices (ALL the display devices) that will accept a HD picture from DVI/HDMI will only accept one that incorporates HDCP then the loop is closed.
    But that is a big ask - can't see it happening.
    Don't get me started on end-to-end design and difference between protocols and data.
    This is all about pay per view and the suppliers wanting to dictate when, how and on what you can view material. The material you payed for (your copy of).

    Its not about stopping the pirates - its about milking the (ordinary) customers.
     
  18. Max Skye

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    Sadly Steve you are right this has nothing to do with preventing loss of revenue through illegal pirate copping activity as people who buy illegal copies generally do not care about quality. As the whole activity is illegal why would pirates bother going to the trouble of creating HD copy when they could just label standard copies with a fake HD logo. Let’s hope the Europe bans the use of Microsoft Media or else will have to put up with DRM.

    I am not sure what you mean by closing the loop if all display devices are HDCP compatible. A HDCP compatible display device works with both HDCP and non- HDCP, if they didn't they would be incompatible with almost everything that currently drives them.
     
  19. Steve.J.Davies

    Steve.J.Davies
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    Not what I meant to say. ....If they 'only' accept a HDCP signal....

    Despite the fact thats its early days for Hidef I am now of the opinion that the time to 'kit up' for it is now. As the manufacturers get more into it the level of integration in the hardware will be such that you won't be able to do things like SDI mods.
    I am against piracy in both its forms - that perpetrated on the customer side and that perpetrated on the supply side.
     

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