Sagem DLPs Summarised!

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by kmhtkmhtkmht, Oct 24, 2005.

  1. kmhtkmhtkmht

    kmhtkmhtkmht
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    Here is a 2 page letter I wrote to a number of parties regarding my Sagem 56B Experience - Summarises Sagem DLPs.

    "Re: Inherent Faults and Failed Remedies on the Sagem HD-56B

    To Whom It May Concern:

    I am writing to express my disappointment at the Inherent Faults present in your television being the “Sagem HD-D56B” and your company's engineer's negligence which rendered the TV now inoperable.

    The Inherent Faults there is in your product is a Brightness Issue and a very distinct and disturbing picture noise problem. The Brightness Issue is evident on all sources and causes the Screen's Brightness to suddenly drop, with someone commenting as if there were something “fiddling with the contrast”. This problem happens very often which leads to unstable Brightness levels which proved very disturbing. I had made initial contact with your company highlighting the Inherent Faults to your Technical Support Manager for Sagem UK, being an Andrew Gorman. He acknowledged that the “Brightness Issue” indeed was a fault that he has personally seen and am and has a pretty good knowledge in what it takes to repair this. I was instructed in this point to call the Axium Service Center to make arrangements for a repair, and to ask for a Tuner Board in particular. My subsequent reference number for this is **********. I had requested this Tuner Board and was told by “TSG”, the company that actually carries out the repairs, that this item would be with the Engineer on Friday the 7th of October 2005, and that someone would contact me and visit my premise on that very Friday. The Engineer failed to show up that very day despite persistent calls to both “TSG” and the Axium Service Center. The Engineer eventually turned up on Tuesday unannounced and unequipped, stating that he did not have the part that I was instructed to order and that he'd have to return at a later date. The Engineer revisited on Wednesday the 12th of October with the relevant parts to attempt to remedy the acknowledged problems with the TV set. After a period of two hours the parts in question have been replaced and it was now time to test whether the problems have been remedied. During these two hours I had watched the Engineer approach fixing this TV in a very rushed and careless manner. He freely acknowledged that this was the first HD-D56B he had had to work on, and that he had grossly assumed incorrectly the similarities with the 45 Inch Model – an underestimation that had led him to reassemble the TV no less than twice. The Engineer repeatedly tried to turn the television on but this was to no avail. He had rechecked all connections and indeed called the Axium Service Center and his Employer for advice and realized that the TV - as a result of his efforts at repair has now been rendered inoperable. Prior to his efforts, the TV was in the least still functional in the sense that it switched on showing a picture. He had nothing to say other than apologize and advise me to contact Sagem and that he'd be chasing up the matter with his employer.

    The TV was ordered on the 23rd of August 2005 and the faults were noticed at an early stage and thoroughly discussed and thoroughly documented on AVForums.com. I was initially instructed to essentially use the Television for a few weeks before jumping to any conclusions. A number of other users that have identical televisions to me and the smaller 45 Inch model that works on the same circuitry have also been experiencing the same Inherent Faults as me. A conversation with “Matt” at TSG on the 12th of October at 16:45 also further enlightened to the fact that Sagem have been looking into having received a bad batch of components that have led to the HD-D56B to be compromised.

    I have already devoted too much time and patience to this very problematic issue. Andrew Gorman being your Technical Service Manager of Sagem UK has freely acknowledged that the Brightness issue is in particular an issue he is aware about and present in most Sagem Rear Projection Televisions. The Inherent Faults highlighted paired with your companies inability to remedy this with the ultimate result of also breaking the television has made me lose all my faith in Sagem products. The ultimate result now is that I have been left frustrated and without a functional television that I had paid ₤2,400.00 less than two months ago. The item is clearly not durable. No remedy has of yet been offered by your company or “TSG”, with everyone saying that they are looking into it.

    I am now seeking redress under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 in the form of a full refund. I refer to the Act in particular Sections 14 (2B) (c), 14 (2B) (e), and 48B (2) a. Your company's efforts at repairing the item have rendered what was previously a working item to now it being totally inoperable and non functional. I find a replacement unacceptable as it the whole Sagem DLP Rear Projection range is compromised with the “Brightness Issue” with particular users of the HD-56B range noticing this. "

    So. Samsung/Sony Rules - Refund your Sagems!
     
  2. hifiboom

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  3. sprattgraham

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    The insides of the HD-D45 and HD-D56 are the same you can takes the boards out of the HD-D56 and put them in the HD-D45 and it will work.

    Andrew has said there is a fair number of people having problems with the brightness issue not that it effects all the Sagem models only the HD-D45 and HD-D56 but not every is having this problem. The brightness control of the Lamp as far as I’m aware is controlled by a board that’s not made by Sagem it comes provided with the Lamp.

    This part was change it my HD-D45 and fixed the problem when in normal however did not fix it when using echo mode Andrew has sent details to France.

    Andrew is aware that people are not happy with TSG and is looking into it.

    When I had My HD-D45 changed after only having it for a week they said I was the first person to return one to that store Harlow.

    kmhtkmhtkmht just because you’ve had problems doesn’t mean everyone else will, I’ve had more problems than you 6 Sagem and you don’t see me telling people that Sagem are Crap.
     
  4. kmhtkmhtkmht

    kmhtkmhtkmht
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    This is just the beginning of my troubles, a new letter has been drafted which I will post soon detailing even more oddness with Sagem.
     
  5. ash

    ash
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  6. Snap

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    As i said before - after rearranging the cables the brightness issue is gone. It might be a coincidence and the faulty borad start working again... i don't think so! i am using ECO mode. Great TV.
     
  7. kmhtkmhtkmht

    kmhtkmhtkmht
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    Cables?! There's nothing wrong with my cables, they are all premium cables that cost a fortune not the crappy free ones that come with anything... the TV is inherently flawed, you don't know what you are talking about.

    I am not the only one that notices the Screen Brightness Issue, even the retailer himself told me he saw it (amongst the at least 3 others on this forum alone)

    The Brightness issue is to do with "The Ballast" that is in the Sagems, it's a faulty part that is in ALL of them, they will replace it for those who ask but they KNOW ABOUT THE PROBLEM...

    Basically, Just buy the Samsung or the Sony if you have Rainbows.
     
  8. Snap

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    Even the premium cables can go wrong if they are close to power cables. And I KNOW what i am talking about (as opposite to some people here) as i don't see the brightness issue for 2 weeks already.
     
  9. kmhtkmhtkmht

    kmhtkmhtkmht
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    So I presume everyone else including the company is wrong, when they ACKNOWLEDGE that there IS such a fault and that ALL the users THAT SEE the problem are imagining it.

    You are failing to realise that the company (Sagem) have acknowledged that they know about this problem and are working to a 100% solution, in the meantime replacing the Ballast will help, but in my case, it broke the TV when the "Engineer" tried to do it.
     
  10. sprattgraham

    sprattgraham
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    Andrew replaced The Ballast on mine it fixed the problem when using normal mode however when using echo the problem is still there.

    This is not a Fault with all of the 45 and 56 it only affects some of them. I’ve had three HD-D45 and it has only been on two of them.

    The Ballast is not made by Sagem and it's not been proven The Ballast cause of the problem.

    There must be thousands of people with the HD-D45 and HD-D56 and no one until now has ever had a problem the developers in France haven’t heard of the problem Andrew Gorman is doing his best to find a solution.

    Kmhtkmhtkmht why don’t you stop complaining you’ve only had one Sagem I’ve had six and I’m going to try a different model this time and you don’t see me complaining.

    The support you I got from one person is more you would get from the entire of Samsung or Toshiba
     
  11. dog-man

    dog-man
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    I installed my Axium HD45 on September 1'st.

    It was great for three days then the sudden darkening problem began. It was worse on eco mode than normal mode. So bad, that we could not use eco mode.

    I reported it to Andrew Gormann. He rang me a few days later and asked if they could try a few experimental repairs on it as the cause was unknown. He acknowledged that others had reported the same fault.

    Just over a month later after issuing a threat of "repair it by the end of the week or I want my money back" resulted in an engineer coming out. They had previously fobbed me off on three occasions by telling me that every replaceable part in the television was being replaced so they had to wait for all parts to be in stock.

    On arrival, it was obvious that the engineer knew nothing about the Sagem and clumsily set about removing the covers. He found a few screws on the main circuit board cross threaded, which is worrying as it suggests a previous repair job. I was under the impression that my set as brand new. Now, I don't know.

    He replaced the main board and the lamp and left without setting it up. This was last Friday afternoon.

    For three days it was brilliant, no darkening problems and the images were so much better than before the repair. The colours are now fantastic, the picture is stronger.

    However..........

    On Sunday, the problem appeared again. It is now again impossible to view using eco mode. At the moment, it seems to only affect the terrestrial channels. This is the same pattern as originally. It did eventually affect scart pictures also.

    I am absolutely fed up with this damn television, which is a pity as it has the potential to be a great television.

    I am going to give it until early next week, just in the desperate hope that the fault will sort itself out, if not I suppose it will be a refund.

    I will never buy Sagem again, not because of the fault, but because of their customer service.

    Waiting over a month for a repair is not acceptable.

    I will try moving scart and power cables around tomorrow as some suggest.


    Since having the repair done, I also have a new feature appear on the set.

    When I select picture in picture mode, the word "select" comes on screen.
    this did not happen before the repair, so maybe this is a new feature, but I have no idea how it works as it is not mentioned in my manual.



    dog-man
    Not happy!

    However
     
  12. Kazman

    Kazman
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    Looks like I'm one of the lucky ones, just enjoying SUPERB pictures.

    No signs of the brightness going up and down issue, on all sources, it appears to be just fine :).

    I do see rainbows sometimes though, on very fast movement and very poor sources, but that is a DLP fault rather than one with the TV. AWESOME TV!!! :D :clap:
     
  13. dog-man

    dog-man
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    Can you describe what the rainbow effect is because I can't say I have ever seen anything that resembles a rainbow.


    dog-man
     
  14. cooleo_no1

    cooleo_no1
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    Flick your eyes from left to right on scenes with massive contrast (black and white).

    You should be able to see it, even if you're not susceptible to the Rainbow effect. I don't see at all during normal viewing anymore.

    Damn you Kazman! :) I kid, I kid. Go close to the screen and look at the picture, can you see a kind of grainy thing going on? Especially in dark scenes, you should be able to see what is called Dot-crawl. I believe its a Sagem thing.
     
  15. dog-man

    dog-man
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    I have just checked firmware details etc, can anyone confirm that they are the most up to date?

    Application = HD - D45 35
    MCS = 22
    Formatter = 6
    Teletexte = Sub V2.21
    CW Index Delay = 220


    dog-man
     
  16. sprattgraham

    sprattgraham
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    Thats the Latest
     
  17. Snap

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    dog-man, we have probably more luck here in Germany :)
    When i called SAGEM support and SAGEM they didn't know what to do (The TV came with loose side panel - looks like the spring as off from it's place).
    So they said thet they cannot repair the TV and they will send replacement. I got it 10 days later (thay said it came from France as they don't sell them in Germany yet).
    So i got the black HD-D45 instead of silver!
    anyway, i am now thinking whether to call support for the dirty screen/mirror or not... what if they will replace it with silver version again??

    ooh, and the best HDTV demo so far is the Pioneer one with girl and Paris. I downloaded hundreds of them and this one is absolutely fantastic. Great TV.
     
  18. LV426

    LV426
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    Here is a web page that tries (fairly successfully) to recreate the rainbow effect in such a way that pretty well anybody can see it on pretty well any type of monitor. The upper word has the effect, the lower one does not.

    http://www.dietforum.net/balagee/projected/rainbow.html

    This is done with a moving object; on a DLP projector, the same is equally true of stationary objects, but moving eyes - for example, when reading subtitles.
     
  19. Kazman

    Kazman
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    Will check the TV out tonight for dot crawl :)

    There is one thing that annoys me though, I've heard it being referred to as 'mach banding', on large single colour areas, on fast movement, the picture sometimes turns into bands, only really see it on poor sources or pictures with lots of noise, and it only occurs when, again, there is fast movement, its difficult to describe, almost like an oil painting or smudging effect.

    The last thing that can only be seen on bright scenes is the frosty screen, not too fussed by it though, it's barely noticeable, and can only be seen if you are looking for it.

    DVD is superb, I rarely see any of the issues mentioned above, just superb almost hi def like quality :) superb!!! :D the arrival of Sky HD should also be an eye opener (if they get their pricing structure right that is).
     
  20. evolution400

    evolution400
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    Sounds as if they should have stuck to using Optoma internals like the Axium 50" my tv is great never had any problems with it at all except the lack of HDCP but I am not bothering with SKY HD anyway due to them showing all USA tv eps which are downloadable and movies which are not recordable in HD so IMO no point as of yet.
     
  21. Kazman

    Kazman
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    Not with the Optoma 60hz issue, I have far too many multi region discs :eek:
     
  22. evolution400

    evolution400
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    My TV is the older version of the RD50 so it doent suffer from that.
    Anyway if your using an HCPC region 1 works perfectly on the optomoa RD50
     
  23. Kazman

    Kazman
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    How do you get round HDCP?
     
  24. evolution400

    evolution400
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    You can buy an adaptor to remove the HDCP its on here do a search.
    As I said though not bothering with sky until a recording solution is available.
     
  25. dog-man

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    What is "HDCP"?



    dog-man
     
  26. cooleo_no1

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    HDCP: High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection is an Intel-designed copyright specification supported by DVI and HDMI interfaces.

    Basically you can't play HD material protected with HDCP unless both your DVD player and TV support it. It requires a HDMI or DVI port, though not all DVI inputs are HDCP so look out.

    EDIT: And I wouldn't recommend those HDCP work-around boxes, they cost about £300 or something stupid.
     
  27. evolution400

    evolution400
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    So your basis is not to buy one of these adaptors based on the cost ?
    What is more stupid buying and adaptor for £300 for your existing TV or
    spending another £1600 on a 50" DLP so that it supports HDCP ?
    ;)
     
  28. Kazman

    Kazman
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    I think he means that there is no point in one if he is going to buy a new TV anyway, HDCP compliance should be a requirement of any new purchase.
     
  29. evolution400

    evolution400
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    That wasnt referenced in the post, but I agree if your getting a new TV anyway then most people will choose HDCP equiped TV .....me not being most people :)
     
  30. cooleo_no1

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    Sorry that's what I meant.

    It's not THAT wise to get a TV now without HDCP - especially seeing as HDCP is a protection which can be updated at any point, unlike DVDs. That's the point in this new system, sure, early HD-DVDs will work on that device and then they'll update the protection (with measures they already have set up) and any new discs will not work on it. Then again, I'm not sure how these HDCP boxes work and they could well be just the same as the ones inside TVs. I wouldn't risk it myself.

    I was simply explaining what HDCP was, so that everyone knows to get a TV WITH HDCP, unless they absolutely can't. E.g. They want a CRT TV.
     

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