Rythmik G25HP & F18 (NOT HAPPENING) changed to JTR RS1 & 2400 Subwoofer Group Buy

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
FWIW Rythmik's real selling point is the reduced distortion from their servo design. This would be what would make them really appeal to me if they had a UK distributer.

To get an idea of the benefit we can look at how the JTR 2400 ULF compares to Rythmik's FV25HP (which is the closest equivalent Rythmik product). Data for both is on data-bass.com and if you compare the distortion data you'll see how the Rythmik performs better above 30 Hz in this regard. Below this frequency the JTR has lower distortion though. I would personally argue that distortion above 30 Hz is much more of a audible concern and so I'd rate the Rythmik as the significantly better product.

Here's the data:

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements


Realistically, in his room, with duals.. I don't think we're going to be pushing them to the extent that the distortion is going to be an issue surely?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
If you're scoring subs to try & help you decide on which to import, surely cost/hassle of repairs should be factored in as well.


Agreed. This is the factor which most US customers have and why PSA, Rhythmik and JTR and huge cult followings. Its because of the insane customer service, easy repair services and utterly INSANE trade in deals they offer on old subs to trade up to new ones.

OP is forfeiting these massive positives but not taking them into account re: purchase decision; or for some weird reason, has decided this doesn't matter; despite it being a massive selling point and why these companies are so revered in the US.
 

mb3195

Distinguished Member

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
Realistically, in his room, with duals.. I don't think we're going to be pushing them to the extent that the distortion is going to be an issue surely?

It depends how loud the OP intends to listen, and distortion is something that gradually increases with volume rather than being zero and then suddenly becoming an issue at a particular level. I rather suspect that every sub being discussed in this thread is massive overkill for what the OP really needs but the point I was making is that their is a clear reason for people to consider Rythmik as different.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member

Ultrasonic

Well-known Member
I'll add that from a UK perspective the servo design of Rythmik subs means there is more scope for them to go wrong, which would make me consider them a riskier purchase given the lack of UK service support.
 
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Abizzle

Active Member
Yes the Cs and warranty part of the US offerings is a big factor, however by importing them, I pretty much void that from all manufacturers. As it will be a big hassle if something goes wrong.

Saying that, as you guys have pointed out, dual subs from each will have plenty of headroom in my setting and more than likely won't be pushed to their limits, so will stay in their safe zone, hopefully keeping them from going wrong.

Even if something does happen, the subs aren't overly complicated, the two main components, driver and amp can easily be swapped out by myself. Would just cost shipping of the components to and fro.

Hence why I did not include that in the scoring.
 

Abizzle

Active Member
In regards to the scoring itself, no I'm not trying to over score the Rythmik and at this stage, I'm considering the two mentioned subs, hence why PSA or Arendal aren't in the equation. Not to say they aren't fine subs, just those two are at the top of their game, sealed and ported respectively. And it was easier to score them using the Data Bass data, reviews and customer experience. The PSA's haven't got the data out to compare apple for apples, just a few in room data.

When you look at output of each sub and what people are saying about them, then the picture starts getting a little clearer.

Look at the 9/10 I gave the JTR for output. Because there is only one more JTR sub that can perform better in that area in the 4000. Which would get 10/10.

The G25HP was given 7.5/10 for output, as its 95dB @10hz is similar to the RS1 which comes after the 2400 in the Data Bass list and being a sealed would not be a 8/10 in that respect. Hence a 7 and not 8. For comparison, FV18 = 8/10 and FV25HP 9/10. Not really rocket science.

Rythmik are know to have less distortion due to their servo tech and also being much more articulate and detailed. Hence why Sound quality wise I gave it a point more than the JTR. This is echoed by many on AVSForums.

This is just my opinion, the same with the other scores. Just giving you an idea of how I came to that scoring.
 
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Abizzle

Active Member
I done something similar with my Paradigm C3 woofer. One of them went bad. Contacted Paradigm in Canada, couldn't belive it cost Β£70. Paid them and it was shipped over. Replaced it myself and never looked back. Apart from that, the speakers have been golden and I have given them a serious push more than a few times.
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
I think we got side tracked. Let's keep on topic.

Rythmik G25HP (Dual 15") -
Mid Bass 9/10
ULF/Extension 7/10
Output 8/10
Sound Quality 9/10

or

JTR and 2400 (18") -
Mid Bass 7/10
ULF/Extension 9/10
Output 9/10
Sound Quality 89/10


If you were scoring these subs, how would you score as above. Please copy & paste and give your scores.

For what it's worth from someone who hasn't heard either I'm pretty much in agreement with you on that breakdown although I'd score them equally in the end. Reason being whilst the Servo design gets the Rythmik to ultra low distortion the JTR reaches the same destination by throwing near limitless power at it. With enough units of either subs (4-10 depending on room size etc) you should have no problems at all in reaching audio nirvana in both mid bass and ULF extension. Nothing compares to the quality of bass (definition, articulation, speed, power, extension, distortion) that you get from a large multi-sub system.
 

Abizzle

Active Member
For what it's worth from someone who hasn't heard either I'm pretty much in agreement with you on that breakdown although I'd score them equally in the end. Reason being whilst the Servo design gets the Rythmik to ultra low distortion the JTR reaches the same destination by throwing near limitless power at it. With enough units of either subs (4-10 depending on room size etc) you should have no problems at all in reaching audio nirvana in both mid bass and ULF extension. Nothing compares to the quality of bass (definition, articulation, speed, power, extension, distortion) that you get from a large multi-sub system.

Finally, thanks.

Dual step at a time :D
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
For what it's worth from someone who hasn't heard either I'm pretty much in agreement with you on that breakdown although I'd score them equally in the end. Reason being whilst the Servo design gets the Rythmik to ultra low distortion the JTR reaches the same destination by throwing near limitless power at it. With enough units of either subs (4-10 depending on room size etc) you should have no problems at all in reaching audio nirvana in both mid bass and ULF extension. Nothing compares to the quality of bass (definition, articulation, speed, power, extension, distortion) that you get from a large multi-sub system.
I agree.

JTR goes lower.. so JTR πŸ™πŸ™
 

Tom @ PSA

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Anyone heard of or come across BAG END INFRASUB 18?

Some interesting stuff about it. For example:

  • Frequency Response 8-95hz +/-3db
  • Have a tremendous presence in the mastering and recording end of the business, where movie soundtracks and songs are mixed.
  • Used in Movie Theatres

Here's an old review by Jim Wilson, who is a well known authority on subs over in the States.

Bag End ID-18 Pro Review

They do dual 18" and have different box dimensions with fairly acceptable dimensions.

I could only find older reviews. Wonder if they've sorted some of the issues around amp protection.

Interesting proposition.

Page 59.

decent way back in its day(1990s). Not really up to modern requirements unless you were putting 4-6-8 in a small/medium room.

Tom V.
 

Tom @ PSA

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
FWIW Rythmik's real selling point is the reduced distortion from their servo design. This would be what would make them really appeal to me if they had a UK distributer.

To get an idea of the benefit we can look at how the JTR 2400 ULF compares to Rythmik's FV25HP (which is the closest equivalent Rythmik product). Data for both is on data-bass.com and if you compare the distortion data you'll see how the Rythmik performs better above 30 Hz in this regard. Below this frequency the JTR has lower distortion though. I would personally argue that distortion above 30 Hz is much more of a audible concern and so I'd rate the Rythmik as the significantly better product.

Here's the data:

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

Data-Bass: Subwoofer Measurements

1) any reference to "cea-2010" data-sets already has strict distortion limits in placed based on decades of research headed by Don Keele. So looking at something like 10% versus 5% at some arbitrary frequency check isn't going to provide any audible benefit.

2)for anyone doing a deep dive into the above, I'd suggest looking at the harmonic distribution between odd and even---especially 2nd order. That could potentially offer audible(some would say grossly audible) differences and the current CEA-2010 protocol doesn't address that. And even further, be sure to cross-reference the thd sweeps with the output sweeps as well. Some of the models being touted for minimal distortion(especially above 30hz) simply limit the amp voltage. So you end up with an impressive "3%" at MAX OUTPUT at say 50hz. But when you look closer, the actual max output at 50hz is capped way lower than a competitor(like jtr). So you're trading one type of distortion(thd) for a MUCH more audible type of distortion(compression)

3)as for "this brand or that brand is more musical based on a forum post". I'd caution against accepting that as true evidence. We can look in ANY brand thread and find plenty of posts from those owners saying the same thing. In fact the more recent posts I have seen at avs (rythmk and jtr) all seem to suggest the overall sq was so similar neither had a real edge.

Tom V.
 

Abizzle

Active Member
1) any reference to "cea-2010" data-sets already has strict distortion limits in placed based on decades of research headed by Don Keele. So looking at something like 10% versus 5% at some arbitrary frequency check isn't going to provide any audible benefit.

2)for anyone doing a deep dive into the above, I'd suggest looking at the harmonic distribution between odd and even---especially 2nd order. That could potentially offer audible(some would say grossly audible) differences and the current CEA-2010 protocol doesn't address that. And even further, be sure to cross-reference the thd sweeps with the output sweeps as well. Some of the models being touted for minimal distortion(especially above 30hz) simply limit the amp voltage. So you end up with an impressive "3%" at MAX OUTPUT at say 50hz. But when you look closer, the actual max output at 50hz is capped way lower than a competitor(like jtr). So you're trading one type of distortion(thd) for a MUCH more audible type of distortion(compression)

3)as for "this brand or that brand is more musical based on a forum post". I'd caution against accepting that as true evidence. We can look in ANY brand thread and find plenty of posts from those owners saying the same thing. In fact the more recent posts I have seen at avs (rythmk and jtr) all seem to suggest the overall sq was so similar neither had a real edge.

Tom V.

Hi Tom, thank you for joining us and providing your expertise.

I agree 100%. With today's tech, the top subwoofer from Rythmik, JTR, PSA, Funk, Seaton have come such a long way and they are so capable that the only difference is the design approach leading to signature sound.

This benefits the customers greatly, as every person has his own requirements and likes and it seems we have these likes covered by one manufacturer or the other.

It's a shame that one of the only direct comparison we make is via CEA 2010 data, as that's the only time the subs have been tested according to the same set of testing methodology. It's only one part of the bigger picture and is unnecessarily used to bash each other with.

I would personally go with any one of the subs mentioned above. But for me it would come down to price, size and sound signature as would have to import them. The performance for me would be more than enough from any of them.

I'm personally leaning towards a more detailed and articulate sub, hoping that I'll be only utilising 60% of the power in my room leading to the output competition becoming a moot point and getting similar Tactile Response from anyone of them at 60% power.

Am I right in this way of thinking? Thanks
 

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