Russ.Will - XLS200-XLS300-MONOLITH???

mistygreenandbl

Standard Member
Ok Russell, since you seem to be the man with the real life experience of all the BK subs mentioned in the title, and I'm focused on sorting that side of my system out in the next few days, hopefully you (or any others with views based on living with said subwoofers) can help provide the vital clues towards purchasing the unit most suitable for my needs....

I'd better put some 'flesh on the bones' so to speak......details be damned...

Room dimensions - a rather 'stubby' L shaped lounge room, longest side wall 16ft, top wall 13.1ft, bottom wall 10ft, other wall split 11ft - 5ft mix, with the 10ft part providing the 'toe' of the L with a depth of just a tad over 3ft.....

Equipment - The system is being built 'backwards', I have a kitchen / Bathroom / New Boiler plus system to fit / pay for, so I want to purchase as I go along keeping an eye on the over-all budget.

This HiFi / AV build is also subject to me building either a floating plasma wall or a whole structure along the 13.1ft wall. There is also the possibility of refocus elsewhere on the grounds of severe family health issue's - it's happened a few times since I originally planned to D.I.Y my house / upgrade the system. As an example, I've been without a working television since November 2006, purchased another one in January 2007, and it's still in it's box......plus I am at present living in what can only be described as a 'packing factory come 'building site'......Family comes first though.

I'm going with a Yamaha YSP1100 (It was a YSP800 when I first started thinking about this.....but life etc...) for the movie side of things (I have no desire to have wires and speakers everywhere these days - plus I don't have the time to rip more of the house apart to channel cables in ) I will add some floor standing speakers later on for the hifi (I was thinking of KefIQ5's, small aesthetically pleasing etc - or I could revert back to the old 90's version of me and use my Impulse H2 horn speakers I still have stored upstairs - to be honest, I have turned into a male version of SWMBO - I don't want large speakers on display anymore....weird eh? ) I have a Yamaha AV amp a RX-V357 - purchased about 18 months ago, but never used - a Trichord modded A400 - an old series 1 Audio Innovations 300 amp - a Kenwood 9010 cd transport, an Orelle multibit dac (who's model number escapes me right now) a pioneer upside platter model cd player (again model no escapes me - this stuff is all packed away) Various speakers, wharfedale diamonds Mk2's, Snell K's, the H2's - basically what was left over from my stuff in the 90's - I have also recently purchased a Samsung HD870 DVD player.....and would consider purchasing another better quality AV amp in the future.....Short term TV, YSP plus subwoofer....Anyway, I'm starting to waffle on, so.....

The system will eventually be used for both music and movies - a 60 /40 mix weighing in favour of music - my tastes in both movies and music cross the spectrum - encompassing almost everything.....

Neighbours - yep, I have them......Don't wish to make life hell for them either......So I wouldn't be playing at high volume levels.....That's one of the reasons I like horn speakers - they work well at reasonable levels - they 'breathe well, and have decent dynamics.....although in real terms most are poor at reproducing low bass.....I want to hear the air being moved when a kickdrum is being put through it's paces, I want to hear all the notes on a double bass when the jazz trio is cooking......I don't want the audio equivalent of Metallica's last album where Lars sounded like he was playing dustbins rather than a drumkit....Monolith wins out????

Aesthetics......I much prefer the looks of the DF XLS200 and Monolith over the XLS300, simply due to the lack of drive units, covers etc.....However sound quality wins the day......

So, out of the mess I have presented above, any comments to add? - other than my grammar is bordering on appalling.....:lease:
 

Dave964

Well-known Member
Well, I haven't tried them all - in fact, I've only tried the XLS300. But I think you've probably ruled out the Monolith for two reasons :

You say you don't want large speakers, and the monolith is a fair old size. But also you say you won't play at high volumes - and when I asked about upgrading to a Monolith in this thread :

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=679782

Russ said that it was really at the high volumes you'd notice the difference.

I do regret not buying a monolith myself, because it is roughly the same cost as the 300 and I think I could have squeezed a DF in. But I was pretty sure I didn't really need a sub at all - now I've got one I realise I definitely did.
 

mistygreenandbl

Standard Member
Well, I haven't tried them all - in fact, I've only tried the XLS300. But I think you've probably ruled out the Monolith for two reasons :

You say you don't want large speakers, and the monolith is a fair old size. But also you say you won't play at high volumes - and when I asked about upgrading to a Monolith in this thread :

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=679782

Russ said that it was really at the high volumes you'd notice the difference.

I do regret not buying a monolith myself, because it is roughly the same cost as the 300 and I think I could have squeezed a DF in. But I was pretty sure I didn't really need a sub at all - now I've got one I realise I definitely did.

Well I almost ordered a Monolith last night (3 something in the morning to be accurate) but I was curious as to any responses I may have gotten from this post. The physical size of the Monolith doesn't bother me, with it's wooden finish and lack of drive unit on display, it would 'vanish' far more easily in my room than would my H2's or even the XLS300. I even went as far as building cardboard replica's of all three subs, so I have a *rough* idea of the visual impact the Monolith would make.

The volume issue provides more of a stronger basis for doubt, although my mind ponders over the anology of cars with differing size engines travelling at the same speeds on a highway - surely the larger capacity engine would have the important bonus of more reserves of power when needed - ie more dynamic headroom when it comes to reproducing certain sounds?

I did read some of your posts when I noticed your choice of subwoofer, indeed your reaction time / purchase of said subwoofer after advice on this forum has to rate as the quickest turnaround I've ever seen here :D (Unless I have my posters mixed up)

As to your closing comments, I already have a nagging feeling over the Monolith, and I haven't even purchased a sub yet!!
 

mistygreenandbl

Standard Member
XLS-300.:)

Russell

It's that cut n' dried is it Russell? Did I mention that I really really really don't like the drive unit / grill approach of the 300? :D

As I responded to Dave above, I almost purchased a Monolith earlier this morning. In fact, if it was simply down to the two subs being a close match at my given listening levels, ie: I wouldn't be using the Monolith to it's full abilities, hence the XLS300 answer, I'd still opt for the Monolith due to its more pleasing aesthetics, but I have an idea that you based your response more around my room dimensions and possible 'tuning' problems?

On a sliding scale of 0-100, and placing the Monolith at 90 say, what scores would the 200 and 300 rate as towards their sonic abilities? - Forget VFM, just plain old audio ability....

I have over the years, had both ownership and exposure to some interesting turntables/cd players/amps/speakers, so I'm more than happy to swim murky waters relating to them, however my experience of subwoofers is very limited - Richard Lord's demo room at a hifi show in Chesterfield (I think? ) and Kevin Scotts horn subwoofer for the Tone Scouts at his home....and all this was back in the 90's, so as far as murky waters go, I'm not waving, I'm drowning....:D
 

HiFiRuss71

Distinguished Member
I'm afraid that it's impossible, foolish even, to say that one sub will definitely fit a given size of room, due to the infinite variations of dimensions, sub placement possibilities, seating positions and even the physical construction of the room.

You're right with the big car cruising analogy, but do bear in mind that in the more treacherous and detailed urban roads of music listening can also benefit from small car manoeuvrability. If that's not stretching the analogy too far, that is.:)

I can't really give a percentage rating either, as I said at low volumes there's naff all in it. The extra percentages only come in to play at really high volumes and you've already said that they're not an option. Even if they were, a Yam sound projector is more likely to call time first.....

My seat-of-the-pant-o-meter suggests that given the mix of listening conditions, room dimensions, and if you don't sit against walls, you may not get too bad an in room response anyway and the slightly sloping response of the smaller sub may combine with room gain to give a solid performance down into the low 20Hz without being overblown with plenty in reserve.

I can't help you on the subjective aesthetics front.;)

Russell
 

mistygreenandbl

Standard Member
I'm afraid that it's impossible, foolish even, to say that one sub will definitely fit a given size of room, due to the infinite variations of dimensions, sub placement possibilities, seating positions and even the physical construction of the room.

You're right with the big car cruising analogy, but do bear in mind that in the more treacherous and detailed urban roads of music listening can also benefit from small car manoeuvrability. If that's not stretching the analogy too far, that is.:)

I can't really give a percentage rating either, as I said at low volumes there's naff all in it. The extra percentages only come in to play at really high volumes and you've already said that they're not an option. Even if they were, a Yam sound projector is more likely to call time first.....

My seat-of-the-pant-o-meter suggests that given the mix of listening conditions, room dimensions, and if you don't sit against walls, you may not get too bad an in room response anyway and the slightly sloping response of the smaller sub may combine with room gain to give a solid performance down into the low 20Hz without being overblown with plenty in reserve.

I can't help you on the subjective aesthetics front.;)

Russell

Thanks Russell.

The room part of the equation seems to provide more questions than answers, as far as subwoofer integration goes. My fading brain cells recall a customer in a branch of Audio Excellence announcing that he had just spent over 200k on his latest hifi 'upgrade', the penny didn't fully drop until he started talking about how much better his Naim SBL's sounded in his new lounge....Indeed, I'm sure we can all think back to cheap systems that have sounded wonderful, and expensive systems that have sounded dire, in varying locations over the years. The boxes we live in have a lot to answer for I'm sure.

The motoring analogy carried on just fine :smashin: Although I switched to motorcycles and race reps riding rings around Harley D's.....

As for volume and the YSP, well that would only be for movies, the sub would be mated to some more 'realistic' speakers for music. Maybe even my H2's if I stop being so anal about aesthetics :D

Although I had my focus fully on BK as the source of my subwoofer, and I have zero desire to reproduce the amount of posts/questions that a certain young man did so back in the early days of the Monolith DF thread, :rotfl: the aesthetics 'thorn' has me asking if there are any other oakwood finish DF subs of the same quality / pricing structure of the BK stable?

Whoever thought the simple act of spending money could be such a P.I.T.A?
 

Giblets2

Active Member
...the aesthetics 'thorn' has me asking if there are any other oakwood finish DF subs of the same quality / pricing structure of the BK stable?
Well that's easy enough for me to give you an answer - 'nope'. I'd get the Monolith (in fact I did). You never know you may fall out with your neighbours and need those 'reserves'!! :smashin:
 

Sniper

Active Member
Stop calling by XLS300 ugly ... I might have to live up to my nick ... no really!
 

mistygreenandbl

Standard Member
Stop calling by XLS300 ugly ... I might have to live up to my nick ... no really!

Ugly?, did I say ugly? :D One mans meat etc....

I'll have to go check out your posts, see what you have to say about that sweet little subwoofer :rotfl: To be honest, I must be in a very small catagory in AV/Hifi land, of those who dislike drive units / grills showing.
 

HiFiRuss71

Distinguished Member
Release the grill, unshackle the performance.;)

If the thought of a driver on display distresses you, buy a Monolith and a BFD and then you can virtually assure (nothing is totally guaranteed) that the sub will work in your room.

You'll have headroom in excess, a FR tailored to your taste (eventually) as deep as can be possibly be expected for the money and your aesthetic values satisfied. If you can be arsed (that's BFDs for you) you can even tailor presets to suit different listening situations. I'd always suggest EQ, but then I'm a fan.

You know that's what you want, don't you?;)

Up to now, I've tried to suggest the most likely candidate without EQ and that's still the XLS-300. Better still is the 300 with EQ, but I'm sensing that you just want the green light for the big boy.;)

BTW, nice selection of truly classic kit you've got there. I can take or leave A400s as they were never quite the 'Krell on the cheap' the mags thought they were, but goddam - get the Impulse H2s back in use! They were/are/always will be a true classic along with Kef 104/2, Acoustic Energy AE1s, Linn Saras although they tread their own path. Get them back in use and Ebay everything to make sure they get the power-amps they deserve. Efficency is not a replacement for amp quality and bugger single ended valve designs. I seem to remember being captivated by the H2s on the end of serious mosfet gear like Mark Levinson and MF stuff. I'd love to hear a pair of H2s on the end of some Flying Mole amps or other modern mega quick sounding amps. Neutralty would be out the window, but damn they'd rock!

Don't even ask me what centre speaker could tonally match them though.Rant over.:lesson:

The Pioneer PD-S series CDPs were interesting, but IIRC, only the more expensive ones were actually a worthwhile advance and modded versions were used by Wadia for one. Again IIRC the PD-S901 was probably the one of choice but the Legato Link DACs were just another way of making things sound analogue, rendering them a decent transport, which probably explains why you had a separate DAC.:)

Russell
 

mistygreenandbl

Standard Member
Release the grill, unshackle the performance.;)

If the thought of a driver on display distresses you, buy a Monolith and a BFD and then you can virtually assure (nothing is totally guaranteed) that the sub will work in your room.

You'll have headroom in excess, a FR tailored to your taste (eventually) as deep as can be possibly be expected for the money and your aesthetic values satisfied. If you can be arsed (that's BFDs for you) you can even tailor presets to suit different listening situations. I'd always suggest EQ, but then I'm a fan.

You know that's what you want, don't you?;)

Up to now, I've tried to suggest the most likely candidate without EQ and that's still the XLS-300. Better still is the 300 with EQ, but I'm sensing that you just want the green light for the big boy.;)

BTW, nice selection of truly classic kit you've got there. I can take or leave A400s as they were never quite the 'Krell on the cheap' the mags thought they were, but goddam - get the Impulse H2s back in use! They were/are/always will be a true classic along with Kef 104/2, Acoustic Energy AE1s, Linn Saras although they tread their own path. Get them back in use and Ebay everything to make sure they get the power-amps they deserve. Efficency is not a replacement for amp quality and bugger single ended valve designs. I seem to remember being captivated by the H2s on the end of serious mosfet gear like Mark Levinson and MF stuff. I'd love to hear a pair of H2s on the end of some Flying Mole amps or other modern mega quick sounding amps. Neutralty would be out the window, but damn they'd rock!

Don't even ask me what centre speaker could tonally match them though.Rant over.:lesson:

The Pioneer PD-S series CDPs were interesting, but IIRC, only the more expensive ones were actually a worthwhile advance and modded versions were used by Wadia for one. Again IIRC the PD-S901 was probably the one of choice but the Legato Link DACs were just another way of making things sound analogue, rendering them a decent transport, which probably explains why you had a separate DAC.:)

Russell

Hi Russell,

I ended up reading so many threads last night, my head was spinning! I'd also make the mistake of clicking on links which channelled me towards other threads even before I'd finished the originals - headache?, oh yes!:D

I also had a long think today about falling into the trap of asking for advice, and then, because the offered opinions didn't produce the answers I was hoping for, side stepping the advice and plowing on regardless.

So your words as towards the Monolith are correct :D but I also know with the amount of work I have to do around my place, plus outside distractions, that putting aside the time to set up a Monolith properly with the likes of a BFD etc, would be months and months away - I could end up with pot luck and have an amazing sub off the bat, or I could also end up with a sonic mess unused until time was once again my bosom buddy.

It's time for me to act like a semi responsible adult, rather than pander to my inner child....God, I hate acting like an adult! :rolleyes:

Methinks the 300 is the answer for now,....although I'm going to give myself a few days to mull over that decision!!

As for the kit, well the classic stuff went ages ago, my Voyd reference turntable *sob*, Audio Innovations 1000 pre, 2nd audio power amps, Naim 42-5, Hicap, 250, Linn Lp12, ekos, troika, naim sbl's - had some interesting stuff in the long distant past...oh well....:rolleyes:

The a400 was a rather strange amp, had lots of positive press and that in turn made it a popular choice at it's price bracket, but I found it only really gave of it's best partnered with speakers that were well removed from it's normal price berth, and they in turn were best suited to speakers that were very easy loads such as Snells, or various horn devices. I used a pair bi-amped to drive my H2's, and the power amp section of those little amps worked a treat, no they weren't as capable as far more costly amps, but they worked well out of their price range.

Single ended valve designs vary from the sublime to the plain awful. Some of the best ones' I've ever heard had border patrol design finger prints all over them. Indeed the best *hifi* I've ever heard was at Kevin Scott's old house, including a wacky experiment with a400's into the huge air partner horn speakers - most of the time though the amps were single ended designs with seriously modified power supplies. If I ever stuck lucky on the lottery, Kevin's phone would be ringing off the hook. I had a Tom Evans power amp played through my horns a decade or so ago, cannot remember the name, looked like a bowler hat, made by the Michell turntable company, sounded not half bad. Would have liked to have still had my 250 to try with them also, but ownership of those items differed by about 3 years or so. I'm waffling again, so I'll shut up....:rotfl:

You might find the next question a little too intrusive, so please accept my apologies in advance if it's requesting information of which you do not wish to make common knowledge. I read in one of your posts, that you once worked in the hifi trade, which shop were you associated with?

Anyway, I should imagine most who fall upon my latest jumble of words will have long succumbed to the :boring: and headed for pastures new, so I'll follow their cyber footsteps and bid this thread goodnight :D
 

HiFiRuss71

Distinguished Member
It was University Audio in Cambridge, long defunct.

We sold Linn (but not Naim?!?), Meridian, ATC, Quad, Musical Fidelity, Mark Levinson, Infinity (who had the first subwoofers I'd encountered), AVI, Micromega, Alberry, Ruark, B&O, Bose, as well as the more usual Arcam, Rotel, Mission, Pioneer, Denon, etc, stuff and a few more I can't remember right now.

I left the trade just as the first Dolby surround stuff was arriving and was particularly unimpressed. Back then, surround was four channels, with the rear pair being bandwidth limited and IIRC, being fed the same mono signal. I do remember what looked like a mighty Sony CRT (it was probably a 33" 4:3 job) that cost about £2.5k for our 'home cinema' demo room. It was bloody massive compared to anything I'd seen before.

It was all driven from a Pioneer laser disk player and all I can really remember was that the demo piece of the time was Erica Eleniak's breasts appearing from a huge birthday cake in 'Under Siege'.

How times change. Back then, it was clearly only about visual impact.:rolleyes:

Russell

PS. You've got to be hacked off about moving the Voyd reference on. I had an original Cranfield Institute of Technology 'Rock' (Later distilled into the Townsend Rock) TT, with a rewired RB300 and regret selling it to this day. Between the 'snot trough', a 5Kg platter and an all up weight of close to 15Kg, I've still yet to own a source as resolutely analytical.

Russell
 

mistygreenandbl

Standard Member
It was University Audio in Cambridge, long defunct.

We sold Linn (but not Naim?!?), Meridian, ATC, Quad, Musical Fidelity, Mark Levinson, Infinity (who had the first subwoofers I'd encountered), AVI, Micromega, Alberry, Ruark, B&O, Bose, as well as the more usual Arcam, Rotel, Mission, Pioneer, Denon, etc, stuff and a few more I can't remember right now.

I left the trade just as the first Dolby surround stuff was arriving and was particularly unimpressed. Back then, surround was four channels, with the rear pair being bandwidth limited and IIRC, being fed the same mono signal. I do remember what looked like a mighty Sony CRT (it was probably a 33" 4:3 job) that cost about £2.5k for our 'home cinema' demo room. It was bloody massive compared to anything I'd seen before.

It was all driven from a Pioneer laser disk player and all I can really remember was that the demo piece of the time was Erica Eleniak's breasts appearing from a huge birthday cake in 'Under Siege'.

How times change. Back then, it was clearly only about visual impact.:rolleyes:

Russell

PS. You've got to be hacked off about moving the Voyd reference on. I had an original Cranfield Institute of Technology 'Rock' (Later distilled into the Townsend Rock) TT, with a rewired RB300 and regret selling it to this day. Between the 'snot trough', a 5Kg platter and an all up weight of close to 15Kg, I've still yet to own a source as resolutely analytical.

Russell

Sadly it seems as though quite a few shops have gone under during my absence from the hifi scene. As for the Linn/Naim selection, there seemed to be rather a lot of politics involved with those two brands after Linn started making their own amplifiers. Shame really. Alberry rings a few bells, didn't they have a maroon tinged semi transparent pre amp?, or am I thinking of someone else maybe?

At least your old shops AV system left some kind of mark, all I can recall from that movie was wooden acting from both male and female leads....and her *movie* career has come on leaps and bounds hasn't it?!! Home movies excluded.

The Townsend TT's and the rb250/300 arm's seemed to be an excellent match from the few occasions I heard them, that trough was a master stroke. I had used an rb300 (standard wire) on a Valdi I owned, but the VR was teamed up with an ekos and oc9, not the best match, but at the time funds were more than low and the Helious Cyalene was too poorly made for the price it was at. Guy Adams once fitted a prototype audionote tonearm (a bit like naims ARO) but it was a bugger to set up, and stay set up.

As for being hacked off, well yes and no, I've lost far more precious things from my life than the VR, but part of me wishes I'd kept it.

The one major hifi *disappointment* I have, was that I was never able to obtain a pair of the specially made floorstands from the Cornflake shop for the original Wharfedale diamonds. Always wanted to have a play with a pair of those, since I have a lot of time for the original diamonds, and those stands were supposed to work wonders with them.

Thank you for the answer Russell, and thank you once again for your responses towards my questions over the various BK subs :smashin:
 

HiFiRuss71

Distinguished Member
It may be a bit off topic, but unless you protest, well get away with it.;)

Alberry did a really nice pair of monoblocks with matching pre-amp that had translucent red plastic front panels that were powerful beyond their specs.They were a typically cottage industry doomed to failure with a one off brilliant product. I can't work out if the people that bought them were inspired, or hopeful in the extreme. Then again, it takes the samll boys to push the envelope - something that AV is sorely lacking.:(

I'm currently running a Michell Syncro with a standard RB300 and guess what? An AT OC9! This is fed into an NVA two box phono stage (one box for the phono stage, one for the power supply). Resolutely early '90s kit but god damn, it's fun.:D

I had time yesterday to wander around a few second hand shops, just for the hell of it - Cash Converters and the like of a few local independent shops and I was stunned as to the quality of stereo system you could make for silly money.

For instance a Marantz CD63SE plus Rotel RA-920AX and Wharfedale Diamond MkIIs could be had for a combined total of £87. £87 quid for gods sake! People are still getting advised to but £300 all-in-one systems on this very forum!

I think I may have found a new crusade!:lesson::rolleyes::D

Russell
 

mistygreenandbl

Standard Member
It may be a bit off topic, but unless you protest, well get away with it.;)

Alberry did a really nice pair of monoblocks with matching pre-amp that had translucent red plastic front panels that were powerful beyond their specs.They were a typically cottage industry doomed to failure with a one off brilliant product. I can't work out if the people that bought them were inspired, or hopeful in the extreme. Then again, it takes the samll boys to push the envelope - something that AV is sorely lacking.:(

I'm currently running a Michell Syncro with a standard RB300 and guess what? An AT OC9! This is fed into an NVA two box phono stage (one box for the phono stage, one for the power supply). Resolutely early '90s kit but god damn, it's fun.:D

I had time yesterday to wander around a few second hand shops, just for the hell of it - Cash Converters and the like of a few local independent shops and I was stunned as to the quality of stereo system you could make for silly money.

For instance a Marantz CD63SE plus Rotel RA-920AX and Wharfedale Diamond MkIIs could be had for a combined total of £87. £87 quid for gods sake! People are still getting advised to but £300 all-in-one systems on this very forum!

I think I may have found a new crusade!:lesson::rolleyes::D

Russell

Off topic?, never! I will steer this back on topic with a move as smooth as can be....just after I type a little more that is :D

Cottage industry pushing the envelope - indeed. Do you recall a company by the name of Kelvin Labs? They had a sweet sounding class A amp that I found a home for in my system at one time. It had razor sharp heatsinks on it though, my hands took a beating with that one...They revamped the range to enclose those 'knuckle slicers', but the second gen never sounded as good as the original. They had some wacking monoblocks as well, but I never got to listen to them. Friend of mine still owns the KL, I think he is dreading the day when it gives up the ghost.

NVA is another blast from the past - how is the OC9 going, anywhere near needing a retip? They are still made, even to this day, mk2 version, but still made! Those Michells were beautifully made tt's, in fact the whole range was like audiophile pornography in it's standards of workmanship/finish.

You might be interested in picking up this months copy of hifi plus Russell, I was taking a butchers in WH Smiths earlier on today, and there was a fair old few pages dedicated to the new Rock tt, and Townsend's history as a company....plus a review on the mk2 OC9...small world!!:D

We don't have a cash converters in my neck of the woods, and sadly most of the second hand shops are charity based, and full mainly of clothes and old books etc....but I can just imagine some souls purchasing said audio bargains from shops such as you have mentioned and redirecting their new 'treasures' towards ebay for a swift profit....talking of ebay, I notice BK are selling their subwoofers direct to the public from that auction site - and minus the usual 2 week or so turnaround period. Only a single XLS200 so far, but I didn't look at their selling history to see if others in the range had been offered.

Back on topic methinks.....in a fashion :oops: :D
 

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