Question running network cables next to power cables.

Discussion in 'Networking & NAS' started by rampant, Apr 12, 2018.

  1. rampant

    rampant
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    Hi all,

    im in the process of planning/ building my 'shed' - its around 30m away from my house, and i wanted to get power and network down there.

    i'll be running some piping (probably 22mm plastic pipe) down to the shed for my power and wanted to know if i could use this piping for the network cable as well - or will i suffer with connectivity problems?

    regards
     
  2. BB3Lions

    BB3Lions
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    Will suffer data loss as it's side by side for a considerable length.
     
  3. cjed

    cjed
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    If you're using good quality UTP cable you shouldn't have a problem over a 30M distance - if you can separate the cables (even by a few mm) it will be better than running them touching each other.
     
  4. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Whilst agree it's good practice certainly for a variety of reasons. There are plenty of people that do it though and no reported issues.

    50Hz vs the 100MHz of Ethernet is part of the reason.
     
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  5. grahamlthompson

    grahamlthompson
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    As you can use homeplugs to use mains wiring as ethernet connections, it's doubtful that 50Hz will have any effect at all on cat5/6 cabling. Much more likely is interference from HDMI cable with UHF TV rf reception when coax cabling and hdmi run together.
     
  6. rampant

    rampant
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    so then - do i bury the plastic piping or attach to the fence ...
     
  7. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Am assuming you are using armoured cable for the power?

    Bury it probably, fences blow down ...
     
  8. welshy

    welshy
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    You will not see any problems at all. I work in IT in a University and our Data Center has thousands of cat5 and cat6 cables all running alongside hundreds of power cables including UPS distribution systems with no issues at all.
     
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  9. BB3Lions

    BB3Lions
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    I'd sack the installer.
     
  10. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Apart from all those frizzy hair students on the university's PC what's the problem :thumbsup:
     
  11. BB3Lions

    BB3Lions
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    Data cables when carrying data get hot, when they get hot an ran near electric, there runs a very high risk of fire. Nevermind the noise being transmitted across the data!
     
  12. welshy

    welshy
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    I have worked there for 26 years and have been a major part of all the installs with Engineers Partners from Cisco, Dell, HP and currently Huawei (new DC install), not one single issue. It is impossible to avoid data cables being in contact with mains cables in a large DC. It's not cables which catch fire, it's mains sockets and equipment. Only use certified fire resistant cables anyway as best practice.
     
  13. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    My original quote was mean in jest.

    But I must say I am struggling with this one. Is this based on any practical\personal experience or something you have read?

    I would be very worried if your data cables got hot carrying data? They are carrying very little power. You wouldn't ever be able to bundle them as you do when doing structured cable if that was the case. Hate to think how hot your cables got if you were using them for PoE.

    If a cable is getting hot its the wrong spec, similar as, that's why we have different grades of power cable.

    Noise is common place everywhere, that's why its twisted pairs to prevent\reduce noise pickup.
     
  14. rampant

    rampant
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    Is it best to use armoured? I was going to use some poly pipe to run the power and Ethernet - running lights and some
    Power to charge stuff and maybe a heater in the winter
     
  15. Andy98765

    Andy98765
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  16. doug_1986

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    As above, you need armored cable on both the power and network cables. And actually the armoring will in all likelihood shield the data cables enough from the mains to cause no problems at all.
     
  17. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Agree although you want a three core cable as the one above doesn't have earth.

    Some of this work may also be notifiable to under Part P of the building regs. You should at the very least check with a sparkie.
     
  18. pocketmonkey

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    Plastic ducts may become brittle after time but they are the easiest way to keep your cables 'upgradeable' so you may want to consider whether they are likely to ever need to be replaced. It may be useful to run the network cable through a duct for this reason.
     
  19. franko3

    franko3
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    You could always run two 22mm pipes to keep the cables separate?
     
  20. Andy98765

    Andy98765
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    What is there to upgrade to a shed?
    The armoured solution gives the user a 1 Gig service. As for the power that has not changed in a 100 years.
     
  21. rampant

    rampant
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    how long would it take for the plastic to become 'brittle' if buried?
     
  22. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Plastic piping generally becomes brittle due to UV radiation from sunlight, underground it's not going to have that problem so would last substantially longer.

    However I am not sure why you are really considering it other than possibly for the ethernet side of things.

    Your electrical cable should be armoured and fitted by a suitably qualified person. I certainly wouldn't want to pipe 22mm plastic pipe and regular twin and earth 2.5mm down it. That provides no mechanical protection to the cable, a spade would go straight through both. Please tell me you are not going to do that?

    This page @Andy98765 linked to also some underground conduit if you do want to use it.

    CAT5 = External Network Cable CAT5E Armoured SWA

    Put the armoured cables CAT5 and electric down one of these buried at a depth of at least one and half spade (>600mm) with tape on top to prevent anybody else digging it up. That way it will comply with the recommendations.
     
  23. Frankly41

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    Yep data cables get warm, hence the min bend radius, its not that the data flies off sharp corners like a scalectrix car, it gets a warm spot and breakdown the copper over time.
    12" seperation is the recommendation for power/data separation, so either side of a trench is usually fine, or if narrower either side and set and slight height difference to give the 300cm.
    Plastic pipe out of sunlight will see us all out as the plasticizer only leaches out with UV exposure.
    Make sure the pipe is black or preferable red though, power cables inside blue water pipe is very dangerous, down the line someone will attempt to cut through the pipe thinking its water only to find a live 240v shock waiting for them.
     
  24. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Checks date, ok no its a genuine comment... :facepalm:

    Data cables do not get warm with transmission of network signals. Not in any sense of the definition of warm that I have. Warm for me is significantly above ambient temperature. Ambient temperature in a data centre might be hotter than a normal office, so cables in a data centre might be hotter especially near server\switch exhaust fans but that's not through the signals they are carrying.

    If cables were getting warm\hot then that is bad efficiency of cables and would be something that. All that heat lost in all the network cables round the world would add up to a substantial amount.

    As a quick test, I have a temperature reading from a number of my "busy" network cables and the reading is the same as ambient temperature.

    The minimum bend radius is that designed not to damage the cable...

    Have you got any links or evidence to back up your claims?
     
  25. Frankly41

    Frankly41
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  26. Frankly41

    Frankly41
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    although any installation guide from reliable sources will discuss temperate gain i.e. Belden, Nexans Excel etc.
    Single cables circa 10deg, bundled etc as much as 30-40deg.
    Your cables presumably in free space to be able take a reading off clearly would not.
    Enclosed, ducted, plastered over etc, yes very much so.
     
  27. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    With the exception of the bend radius, nothing there is relevant to your original statement.

    Not sure what myths you are trying to point out either? Interference ? You are more likely to get interference from other sources rather than mains.

    Bend radius is to prevent damage to conductors. Hotspots might be a consideration if there was high resistance and high current, but its highly unlikely in an ethernet cable.

    Incidentally no mention of heat or warm anywhere else in his article.

    If that's 10 degrees increase in temperature and 30-40C over ambient would be outside the operating temperature of the cables o_O

    Would you be so kind to link to one?
     
  28. pocketmonkey

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    I’m thinking more along the lines of replacement due to damage however unlikely that is. A single point of damage to a duct can be uncovered and a new cable run without digging up the whole 30m. However as you suggested, armoured cable is probably the more suitable solution for a shed/garden.
     
  29. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    So to add a bit to this heating debate as I did find something on the Excel website:-

    https://www.excel-networking.com/sites/default/files/downloads/section9_installation_guidelines.pdf

    Bearing in mind this is related to lots of cables in some of their examples they are taking 750 in a tray.

    They reference some research but don't provide any links which is a shame. Even for multiple runs of cable you are not likely to see these effects and the 40C they mention would put it out of their own operating temperature so something is wrong there, hence a shame they don't have a link to their research.

    To the OP from having one cable you are not going to notice an increase in cable temperature. Even at 40C temperature rise if that would be possible it's not going to generate a fire hazard.

    The effect of this heating and\or ambient temperature is to reduce the overall channel length. At 60C the recognised formula would mean that the length of channel would be shorten from 100m to 78m to still work effectively ....

    Here is some info from the PDF

    Heating Effects
    Energy losses from within cabling will be translated into generation of heat. There are many factors which accumulate to create this effect. The installer needs to be aware that the temperature rise in the cabling at these points can be in the order of 10C or higher when all of these factors come together.
    The temperature rise created is greatest where:
    • the cabling is managed into large bundles
    • and/or there are a large number of simultaneous users
    • and/or cabling is run into constricted spaces such as at wall penetrations
    • and/or the cabling is required to support higher energy applications / PoE applications
    • The energy loss due to heating effects is different for Screened and Unscreened cable.
    All the performance criteria for the 100m Channel as outlined in EN 50173-2 is based upon it operating at an ambient temperature of 20˚C and for every degree over this level this distance will be reduced. The following formula provided in the above standard gives the rate of reduction for unscreened cables, in short for temperature increases up to 20˚C above the ambient the Channel should be reduced by 0.4% and for temperatures increased over 40˚C above the ambient there is an additional 0.6% that has to be added.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2018
  30. ChuckMountain

    ChuckMountain
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    Here is an interesting link to Belden one.

    How Cable Temperature Impacts Cable Reach

    It's all about reach and reduction mainly due to PoE.

    Its PoE that's going to cause any sort of significant heating effect if any in a cable not merely passing data over a regular link. :devil:
     

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