Router Network Questions

Discussion in 'Networking & NAS' started by Max0000, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    I would like to connect a secondry router.

    1) Would I need to change the subnet mask?
    2) could I still access a shared printer on the other (existing) LAN?
     
  2. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    I am not looking to "extend wifi". I am considering having a router so I can run devices in my room. If a family turns the main router off, I would not be able to access the server etc. ;)
     
  3. mickevh

    mickevh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,209
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    West London
    Ratings:
    +1,726
    1) If you want to maintain the ability to access it's admin interface, then yes.
    2) If it's turned on, yes.

    Have a read of the "Using two routers together" FAQ in this forum. Irrespective of whether you have wi-fi enabled or not, the configuration steps required are the same.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  4. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hiya, I had an assumption that LAN devices (by default) can only be accessed within that LAN itself, or maybe I was confusing that with DMZ.

    Yep, I saw the thread guide about it earlier, and will probably read it again.
     
  5. ory84

    ory84
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Ratings:
    +3
    You 100% can put 2 routers on the same LAN, what routers are you looking to use?
    You will need to configure both routers with an IP address in the same subnet, that's fairly straight forward.
    If you wish to use 2 different subnets they you can, just you would need to setup static routes on the routers to allow communications backwards and forwards between the 2. With the static routes you will be able to access all devices/printers on either subnet.
    If you are interested in help let me know.
     
  6. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    Yep, the multiple options can be confusing.

    I would like a router upstairs incase the downstairs one is turned off, preventing file access. I still wish to be able to use the shared printer though that currently stands.
     
  7. ory84

    ory84
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Ratings:
    +3
    Ah right, sorry may have got the wrong end of the stick here. You can only use 1 router at a time to actually connect to the ADSL feed / telephone line within your house. You can use 2 routers but only one can be the "broadband" router.
    There isn't a solution that i can see here sorry that can allow resilient connectivity while keeping all devices in the LAN connected without running an ethernet cable between 2 routers with 2 separate ADSL lines. Even then you'd need superior kit.
     
  8. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi, I don't need a modem, but a network router preferably. The downstairs router has an inbuilt modem that will be used, and I would connect the two units via ethernet.
     
  9. ory84

    ory84
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Ratings:
    +3
    So you basically i see it like this:

    Downstairs:
    - Router A (inc modem for access to internet) with wireless capability
    - Wireless Printer
    Upstairs
    - Router B with wireless capability (no modem required and internet connection via router B only)

    The 2 routers are connected via ethernet cable.

    In normal operation the router downstairs serves internet and wireless to devices, Upstairs router provides wireless and connects to internet via downstairs router. This will act as one network, so anyone on the wireless of the upstairs router can still communicate with a device on the downstairs.
    If you the router downstairs is turned off, internet to the network will be lost. However the wireless printer will reconnect to the upstairs wireless instead and still be accessible.

    If this is the case then yes it's easily doable, however there are complications around DHCP, whether downstairs or upstairs router is the DHCP server. 1) You could do 2 different subnets with 2 DHCP scopes (1 per router), then route between them, or 2) use one flat network and use one DHCP scope on a router (but if you lose that you lose DHCP or 3) use static IPs.

    The SSIDs for the wireless must have exactly the same settings to allow wireless devices to connect to the strongest single, which ever router is closer.
     
  10. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi, The upstairs router would be exclusively for the use of myself, and we don't use DCHP unless a visitor arrives or it is needed for a short period of time. The purpose of the upstairs router would be for a file storage server, incase the downstairs unit was turned off.
     
  11. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    Wireless connectivity might not be required for upstairs.
     
  12. ory84

    ory84
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Ratings:
    +3
    That makes things pretty simple. For the secondary router, just turn off dhcp which is probably enabled by default then statically assign the inside ip to be on the same network as the primary router. Make sure to use a switch port to connect the routers and not the wan port.
    I've got this sort of setup at my place at the moment, just use a bt home hub for main wireless and internet connection, then Ethernet cable to linksys e4200 for connectivity of pc, ps3 and nas with wireless extending main ssid.
     
  13. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    I thought earlier that if I did have separate networks, I could easily disconnect from it, walk downstairs to the printer, and connect to the downstairs network for printing. If I was using wired connections, it would be unlikely for the cable to reach anyway.
     
  14. limegreenzx

    limegreenzx
    Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,018
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Ratings:
    +337
    Why not just use a cheap switch. All devices you want connected when the router is powered off connect to the switch. You set static IP on the devices or use a different device, such as your server, as dhcp server.
     
  15. ory84

    ory84
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    39
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Ratings:
    +3
    The cable would run between routers yes, but your devices can still be wireless.
    If you want to move between wireless networks you can indeed just disconnect and reconnect to downstairs. If you do it like this and you lose downstairs router, then you will need to connect the printer to the upstairs wifi/network before you can print (unless you use the same SSID and password with wifi).
     
  16. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    I thought a router acted as the local area network, in relation to the post above about using a cheap switch.

    I don't think I require wifi, nor causing interuption to other users.
     
  17. mickevh

    mickevh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,209
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    West London
    Ratings:
    +1,726
    A LAN isn't any particular piece of equipment, it's a fairly loose definition but basically any group of devices networked together in more or less the same locale is a LAN. Formal definitions used to talk about "local" and "high speed" but the terms have lost their meaning over the decades, (for example "high speed" years ago meant things like 2, 4, 10mbps - speeds we'd laugh at these days.)

    The "LAN" ports in a SOHO router function as an ethernet switch. "Proper" routers are used to join LAN's to other LAN's. The SOHO omni-boxes that we call "routers" combine a lot of functions into a single unit including routing, switching, wi-fi, modems, etc.

    You only need one router in a SOHO LAN, and it should be the one connected to the Internet link. To add extra ethernet ports, you only need additional ethernet switches, not more routers. However, if you have old routers lying around you can "cripple" them so they function as ethernet switches (and/or switch/wi-fi combi's.) How to do so is discussed in the "using two routers together" FAQ pinned in this forum.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  18. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    I was aware of that. :)

    What if the router was turned off, would this harm any connections to devices that do not need internet connections?
     
  19. mickevh

    mickevh
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,209
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    West London
    Ratings:
    +1,726
    Not at all, though obviously you can't talk to anything that's reached through an unpowered device. If you are using the DHCP Server in your router to obtain any IP addresses then of course that won't function. That either means DHCP clients will fail to get an IP address, or eventually they will loose them as the leases time out (typically 24 hours.) If you're using static IP Addresses, then of course this doesn't matter.

    LAN's are "peer" type infrastructure, nothing is "in charge" so things are free to come and go as they please. When (let's say) a Windows PC is talking to (say) a NAS, they talk "directly" to each other - the router isn't involved in the conversation (unless they both happen to be physically connected to it of course or the network traffic needs to transit through the router which is dependent on the topology of your network.)

    You can kind of think of it like telephone calls - pairs of devices set up a "connection" with each other as they need to, chat for a bit then "hang up" when they are done. However, unlike the telephone system, there's no central "switchboard" that has to be used to establish the connections - by the use of some magic to do with the way IP and LAN's works, the communicating device can "find" each other. (I'd be happy to explain the mechanisms if you're interested.)

    The (SOHO) router is a device that provides a few useful functions (such as DHCP Server, gateway to the Internet, bridge to Wi-Fi, etc.) - the router is not (to extend the telephone analogy) some kind of "switchboard." or "supervisor" of the network so there's no problem if it's not turned on unless you require any of the functions the router provides (such as the aforementioned DHCP Server.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2014
  20. Max0000

    Max0000
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    23
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    4
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi, Your explanations are great. Feel free to expand if you wish.
     

Share This Page

Loading...