RoomPerfect adds bass instead of reduce it

RiseFall123

Novice Member
In the while I post my Lyngdorf's settings, just how you ask before.

I still need to re-REW and removing all the traps (we'll do slowly everything).

IMG_3137.jpg
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
In the while I post my Lyngdorf's settings, just how you ask before.

I still need to re-REW and removing all the traps (we'll do slowly everything).

View attachment 1711305

Why are you running Custom Eq on your sub and speakers? I would think that you would be best served starting from scratch using Neutral for the Eq with LR4 filters at 100 Hz.

Also, are you 100% sure your measurements are correct? Measure from MLP to the tweeters of your speakers and measure from the MLP to the wall behind your subs.

When you go to do a RP cal, what volume level does it ask to set? Are you setting it to the level requested?
 

RiseFall123

Novice Member
Why are you running Custom Eq on your sub and speakers
I always used "neutral EQ" on the "output setup" and always use a voice in this way:

35 Q6 -4
80 Q5 -1
173 Q5 -3

The values are the biggest issues I always got with REW, into the spectrogram.

Since I always had benefit using them, no matter if BYPASS or RP, this time (the time I took the screenshot) I decided to insert them in the output setup directly, thats why do you see it.

I this way I am free to use other voices more easily.

I hope that self-made correction are very slight anyway.

with LR4 filters at 100 Hz
I'm just using 100hz LR4 on both, speakers and subs after your advice here, this afteroon I made my first re-calibration with RP, including sticking a microphone very near to the front wall (where the speakers are). I still need to listen if something good happened, but, in BYPASS, those values seem to work good. The first impression is that also RP worked a little better, but I don't want to be happy before to have more listening.

Sorry, maybe I'm too tired, but what does mean that term?

I measure from the tweeter to my sweetspot, and from the back of the subs to my sweetspot. I am in the precise center of the triangle.

Are you setting it to the level requested?
Nope, I cannot use that level is too much, I stay usually 6dB lesser, I read in the manual that should be ok (the measure will last long).

Thanks for the support, I am experimenting.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Why are you running Custom Eq on your sub and speakers? I would think that you would be best served starting from scratch using Neutral for the Eq with LR4 filters at 100 Hz.

Also, are you 100% sure your measurements are correct? Measure from MLP to the tweeters of your speakers and measure from the MLP to the wall behind your subs.

When you go to do a RP cal, what volume level does it ask to set? Are you setting it to the level requested?

As Steve says sir. Those measurements look suspect.

Are your subs only ten cm further than your 50s from the listening position?

I’d suggest you put at least the subs against the rear wall and measure the distance from the wall.
Also, as said, simply select ‘neutral’ for the EQ. For both subs and 50’s.

And I’d try 5ms for the sub delay.

Also, just to be sure of everything I’d set the Lyngdorf back to factory settings before you begin.

You are making things much too difficult for yourself by putting in any values in the custom boxes.

Then add the above settings. Then RP.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
I always used "neutral EQ" on the "output setup" and always use a voice in this way:

35 Q6 -4
80 Q5 -1
173 Q5 -3

The values are the biggest issues I always got with REW, into the spectrogram.

Since I always had benefit using them, no matter if BYPASS or RP, this time (the time I took the screenshot) I decided to insert them in the output setup directly, thats why do you see it.

I this way I am free to use other voices more easily.

I hope that self-made correction are very slight anyway.


I'm just using 100hz LR4 on both, speakers and subs after your advice here, this afteroon I made my first re-calibration with RP, including sticking a microphone very near to the front wall (where the speakers are). I still need to listen if something good happened, but, in BYPASS, those values seem to work good. The first impression is that also RP worked a little better, but I don't want to be happy before to have more listening.


Sorry, maybe I'm too tired, but what does mean that term?

I measure from the tweeter to my sweetspot, and from the back of the subs to my sweetspot. I am in the precise center of the triangle.


Nope, I cannot use that level is too much, I stay usually 6dB lesser, I read in the manual that should be ok (the measure will last long).

Thanks for the support, I am experimenting.
That all sounds fine (I would remove the EQ but I’m sure that’s not contributing to your issue) except for the measurement very close to the front wall. The RP instructions say to take measurements at least 1m from the speakers, was that the case? [Edit - also they say not to measure behind the speakers]. I’ve found that the way to ‘teach’ RP to rein in the bass is to get over 90% (where it goes in to optional further measurements territory), then take a measurement <50cm from a wall, perhaps a side wall, but the front wall is probably fine, provided that you can keep it >1m from speakers and subs. Then listen and if the bass is too much, go back in to the settings and add an additional room measurement and do it very close the rear wall, behind the MLP (main listening position = sweet spot), then save again and listen. Repeat if necessary.

If you’re adding room measurements and what you want to achieve is to trim out bass then think about what the system is hearing from your measurements. The bass will sound strongest near the room boundaries, and even more so in corners.

Edited - apparently Lyngdorf actually say not to take measurements from behind the speakers.
 
Last edited:

Steve356

Distinguished Member
I always used "neutral EQ" on the "output setup" and always use a voice in this way:

35 Q6 -4
80 Q5 -1
173 Q5 -3

The values are the biggest issues I always got with REW, into the spectrogram.

Since I always had benefit using them, no matter if BYPASS or RP, this time (the time I took the screenshot) I decided to insert them in the output setup directly, thats why do you see it.

I this way I am free to use other voices more easily.

I hope that self-made correction are very slight anyway.


I'm just using 100hz LR4 on both, speakers and subs after your advice here, this afteroon I made my first re-calibration with RP, including sticking a microphone very near to the front wall (where the speakers are). I still need to listen if something good happened, but, in BYPASS, those values seem to work good. The first impression is that also RP worked a little better, but I don't want to be happy before to have more listening.


Sorry, maybe I'm too tired, but what does mean that term?

I measure from the tweeter to my sweetspot, and from the back of the subs to my sweetspot. I am in the precise center of the triangle.


Nope, I cannot use that level is too much, I stay usually 6dB lesser, I read in the manual that should be ok (the measure will last long).

Thanks for the support, I am experimenting.

MLP means Main Listening Position. Using your description, I guess you mean the same thing with 'sweet spot'.

As Paul says, you're making things unnecessarily complicated at the moment using a Custom Voicing before a RP calibration. I would advise using Neutral for now. Once you've got better sound quality, maybe then play around with custom voicing, if required for fine tuning.

You should be measuring from your 'sweet spot' to the wall behind your sub, not the back of the sub.

If you're finding the recommended volume level suggested by the 3400 for RP cal, that may suggest that your sub levels are too high to begin with. At least that's been my experience with my 3400. Do you have access to a Sound Level Meter and a calibration disc or file?

Reason I ask is that I've always found that I get the best RP calibration when I pre-calibrate the subs to measure about 1-2dB above my main speakers. If I have my subs too high to begin with, I can force the system to have too high a bass response. If I reduce the sub to be 1-2dB higher than the mains, I get excellent bass response and overall integration.

On my system, albeit with different speakers and a single sub, my 3400 generally asks me to set a volume to 13 or 14 and definitely isn't too loud for calibrating in my room. If I have the sub at too high a level to begin with, then it can sound too loud.

I strongly advise not taking any measurements close to the speakers or the wall behind them. Personally, I never take a measurement closer than 1.5m from the speakers or sub.

Hope this helps.
 
Last edited:

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
The only problem with a front wall measurement is that Lyngdorf say to not measure from behind the speakers.

So even if the speakers are against the walls (and these ones are not) then any measurement at the wall will be behind the drivers.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
I agree with Steve. Before beginning RP set the subs so that they are a lower volume than the 50s.

Only a couple of dB, but it does work best that way, or at least with both single and double subs that’s what I’ve found each time.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
The only problem with a front wall measurement is that Lyngdorf say to not measure from behind the speakers.

So even if the speakers are against the walls (and these ones are not) then any measurement at the wall will be behind the drivers.
I didn‘t recall that. If that’s the case then I take back my ‘it’s probably fine’
 

larkone

Member
This is getting old - every time someone says they have issues with RoomPerfect it transpires that they have tried to out think Lyngdorf and 'fiddle' with the settings before letting RoomPerfect do its thing properly. Why do they do this?

Remove any room treatments
Set the speakers in the position that Lyngdorf recommend
Factory reset the 1120
Run RP as per the instructions - don't try and second guess it.
Listen for a decent amount of time to get used to the improved clarity from a well integrated speaker setup.
Save the setup
Then decide if you need to fiddle with voicings or settings
Re-load the setup once you have fiddled with the original setup and need to get back to a 'good' setup.
 

DT79

Distinguished Member
This is getting old - every time someone says they have issues with RoomPerfect it transpires that they have tried to out think Lyngdorf and 'fiddle' with the settings before letting RoomPerfect do its thing properly. Why do they do this?

Remove any room treatments
Set the speakers in the position that Lyngdorf recommend
Factory reset the 1120
Run RP as per the instructions - don't try and second guess it.
Listen for a decent amount of time to get used to the improved clarity from a well integrated speaker setup.
Save the setup
Then decide if you need to fiddle with voicings or settings
Re-load the setup once you have fiddled with the original setup and need to get back to a 'good' setup.
Completely agree, my advice about further near-wall measurements to influence RP to trim out some bass notwithstanding (I suggest doing that only after running RP in accordance with all instructions and listening).
 

gava

Well-known Member
This is getting old - every time someone says they have issues with RoomPerfect it transpires that they have tried to out think Lyngdorf and 'fiddle' with the settings before letting RoomPerfect do its thing properly. Why do they do this?

This is simply not true.

Remove any room treatments
Set the speakers in the position that Lyngdorf recommend
Factory reset the 1120
Run RP as per the instructions - don't try and second guess it.
Listen for a decent amount of time to get used to the improved clarity from a well integrated speaker setup.
Save the setup
Then decide if you need to fiddle with voicings or settings
Re-load the setup once you have fiddled with the original setup and need to get back to a 'good' setup.

Even following those instructions exactly as I did it's still possible to not like Roomperfect, and certainly possible to prefer Dirac Live for a given set of speakers, subs, room and preferences.

I don't disagree with your general point about following the recommended setup procedure to get best results, but to generalise it to the point where you claim that everyone who doesn't love RP simply has failed to follow the correct process goes too far.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
This is simply not true.



Even following those instructions exactly as I did it's still possible to not like Roomperfect, and certainly possible to prefer Dirac Live for a given set of speakers, subs, room and preferences.

I don't disagree with your general point about following the recommended setup procedure to get best results, but to generalise it to the point where you claim that everyone who doesn't love RP simply has failed to follow the correct process goes too far.

I'd certainly agree that RP won't be for everyone, just as Dirac and other RC methods won't be for everyone. Our rooms, ears, ancillary equipment and personal preferences will dictate that.

However, there have been a number of people on various threads that have not followed the manufacturer's guidance or that of the previous UK distributor and dealers, clearly thinking they know better, only to claim they have been disappointed in what RP achieves (I won't name names here). I read your tests and results with interest and clearly you don't belong in that camp.

It's perfectly OK not to like what Lyngdorf and RP does, but I think the general message on this thread is give it a fair chance by at least following the basic instructions first. I know I'm likely preaching to the choir, but fine tuning afterwards, if required, should be the icing on the cake. You need to get the basic sound right to begin with or move onto something else that sounds better to your ears and in your room.

Anyway, let's get back to trying to help the OP with the issues he's hearing on his 3400.
 
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DT79

Distinguished Member
This is simply not true.



Even following those instructions exactly as I did it's still possible to not like Roomperfect, and certainly possible to prefer Dirac Live for a given set of speakers, subs, room and preferences.

I don't disagree with your general point about following the recommended setup procedure to get best results, but to generalise it to the point where you claim that everyone who doesn't love RP simply has failed to follow the correct process goes too far.
Fair comment. It is possible, albeit rare, not to love the end result, even after doing everything right. Nothing is for everyone.
 

sha66y

Active Member
Nobody mentioned the positioning of the plant so im assuming it’s ok where it is, regarding the rest I’d recommend not getting too bogged down with audio science,
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
If the room is treated, then why buy Lyngdorf. Just thought.

Room treatment is a mathematical endeavour.

Anything less is simply a messy bodge.

And there is no substitute for modern DSP room correction.

Bunging foam and ‘bass traps’ about the place without thorough professional knowledge and a huge amount of measuring simply cannot work; as well as being invariably ugly.
 

oscroft

Member
If the room is treated, then why buy Lyngdorf. Just thought.
Just found this thread, so I hope folks don't mind if I offer a bit of speculation - I've never used a DSP or room correction software in my life, so on that part I only have speculation to offer, and it might be nonsense.

I do have a bit of experience with room treatment, and what is often overlooked is that it consists of two things. People treat their rooms with absorbers (inc bass traps) to address frequency response, and with diffusers to adjust reverberation times.

Absorbers, well, absorb, at different frequencies - the frequency response depends on thickness, positioning, and other factors, and it can be a bit of a black art to get right. But, it's a mistake to think it just "reduces bass". Bass isn't a single thing, it's a whole range of frequencies, and absorption can change that frequency range in different (often unexpected, often even undesired) ways.

And if you use absorption in a room, together with room correction software, you surely have two different tools competing to do the same thing - adjust the frequency response. I can easily see the software trying to rectify what sounds like faults in the absorption.

I can see a possible benefit of using absorption if one part of the room is very different to other parts - and you can't expect software to correct the frequency curve at the speakers so it sounds good in every part of the room. But most people don't want that, they just want it to sound good around the listening position.

(As an aside ramble within my ramble, I've often heard people saying you need to install bass traps in the corners because "if you stick your head in the corner, you can really hear the bass build-up". It seems to me that a simpler solution is... don't stick your head in the corner).

Diffusion is a different thing, and is nothing to do with the frequency curve. It's used to break up reflections and increase a room's reverberation time. Reflections arriving at the ears a few milliseconds after the direct sound can smear the resolution and imaging.

Room correction software presumably can't do anything about reflections and reverberation time, as it only has the direct sources from the speakers to work with. So I can see a possible benefit of using diffusion in tandem with room correction software. But as I say, that's just speculation and not experience.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
If the room is treated, then why buy Lyngdorf. Just thought.
Agreed - if the speakers suit the room (many people don't consider this) and they are set up properly and the room is sensibly treated (probably not with all the stuff shown in the sketch), there should be no need to subject the signal to an extra layer of proceessing.
 

larkone

Member
Room treatment installed without proper measurement of the room responses and careful design of the treatments to address the room issues is completely pointless and is very likely to make the final sound far worse. This is usually the domain of audio professionals.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
Room treatment installed without proper measurement of the room responses and careful design of the treatments to address the room issues is completely pointless and is very likely to make the final sound far worse. This is usually the domain of audio professionals.
Yes, I pretty much agree, but room treatment doesn't necessaily require measurements to get a very good sound from the audio system. Many people have good enough ears to judge whether the sound is better or worse with each addition of material, in the same way they can judge whether moving the speakers back or forwards or further apart or with more toe-in or tilt makes a positive or negative difference. With these things done carefully, together with consideration to the room's flooring, wall hangings and soft furnishings, extraordinary improvements can be achieved without recourse to an extra stage of electronic signal processing between the source and the amp. How, otherwise do we have splendid acoustics in concert halls, or good music in the home in the past? Or is anyone claiming that good sound never existed before the invention of DSP? I seriously think there are some here that think so. ("laughs" expected from those who do)
 

oscroft

Member
Room treatment installed without proper measurement of the room responses and careful design of the treatments to address the room issues is completely pointless and is very likely to make the final sound far worse. This is usually the domain of audio professionals.
I think I'd largely agree with that - particularly with absorption treatment that's intended to change the room's frequency characteristics, rather than diffusion.

I think it's muddied, though, by the cheapness and ease of DIY room treatment (compared to the often very high cost of professional room treatment, or the cost of moving to a DSP-based system). And if someone listens to their room treatment and is happy with the result, then I certainly can't say they're wrong.

Saying that, looking round the Youtubes I've seen plenty of examples of apparently succesful room treatments that boggle the mind. I've seen people obsessively fill every available space in their room with absorption, and claim it's great... but I just shake my head and think it can't be.

I've also seen people whose listening position is a sofa pushed hard back on the rear wall. They then hang a skyline diffuser a couple of feet above their heads on the rear wall and claim it makes a big difference... when no primary reflections from up there could possibly have been reaching their ears anyway.

And I saw one guy with a strange room - small and square but unusually high. He reckoned some homemade thin board thing behind each speaker made the room sound great.

And then there's a YT out there for a sound absorber that has gathered millions of views - but the test methodology was badly flawed, and the thing just doesn't work.

So, I'm torn. Room correction can make a huge improvement to a sound system (whether passive room treatment or active DSP), and DIY passive treatment can be very cheap. I was especially fortunate in being given some surplus timber from which I made my skyline diffusers, and they cost me no more than a bottle of wood glue.

But even if you buy the materials, they can still be very cheap compared to professional stuff. If you get it right, spending even £100 can bring a significant improvement.

But against that is the high chance of getting it wrong, especially if you follow some of the idiots on Youtube.

(PS: I know this is about RoomPerfect - sorry for going further off-topic)
 
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3rdignis

Well-known Member
I think acoustic treatment and dsp work together in a bad room.

My next move could well be to get professional audio calibration but i am quite happy as is.


The last speaker position I used was according to a wall bounce simulator, giving me lower peaks for bass according to dsp.

This gave better bass, but worse centre image. So I crossed the speakers in front of me which restored centre image.

Because I didn't have as much side reflections I removed the side absorbers to great effect.

I recently painted, so refitted my large ceiling and close rear wall absorbers with a gap behind, greatly improving.
 

RiseFall123

Novice Member
Hi again,

first, let me thank everyone who are writing in my thread for all the advices.

Just some clarifications:

1) I read from someone that the treatment of the room painted in the sketch does not correspond to the real treatment. I don't know why you said that, but it is as in the sketch, mostly of the acoustic panels are from an italian company named "Oudimmo", very good quality;

2) I read above that, since my subs aren't stick to the wall, the distance must be entry from the front wall and not from the back of the subs. That is a false information, because the distance is always from the back of the subs and not from the front wall;

3) some months ago, I tried to remove most of the treatment (in particolar what's is behind the speakers), the little furnitures at the sides of the TV, and stick the Metas on the wall, and stick also one only KC62 to the wall (at time I didn't have the second); I don't cleary remember if I had some benefits with RoomPerfect in such way, but, I cleary remember that I totally dislike the image of the loudspeakers, then I put everything back as now and I found again the beautiful, vivid, rich, 3D imagine that I have now; This doesn't mean that I won't try your advice to remove everything and stick everything to the wall again;

Something to remind:

1) the room is sadly a square 4,5x4,5x2,9

2) the system is Lyngorf TDAI-3400+KEF LS50 Meta+Stand S2 filled+Dual KEF KC62

3) the Metas are 2,70 meters apart, 33cm from the front wall, 100cm from each side

4) I listen at 3,00 meters from them and behind my head I have 1,30 meters

This is the actual furniture disposition:

1-.jpg


This is a photo of the front wall:

2.JPG


I'm attacking some REW measurements, "b" means "Bypass/no correction", "g" means "Global/RoomPerfect", "my" means "Bypass/no correction/my own EQ".

It's Left+Right+Sub.

I'm now working with Metas at 100hz LR 4th and KC62's at 100hz LR 4th -12dB, 1/4 of the volume on the sub, LFE.

Said everything above, I remember to you that what RoomPerfect does is a virtual "LOUDNESS" button on the sound.

RoomPerfect, instead of make the bass more "slim", "slighter", "faster", "effortless", it gives weight to the sound. At first, I try to acclimate my ear to it, and, on acoustic or good recording music, RoomPerfect sounds very good... but after I back to BYPASS, immedialely my ears start to breath, the sound become "faster", the midbass hump/boomy is reduced, etc.

Just a note, the correction of RoomPerfect seen on the "STATUS" on the settings, is 9%. And I always had these values, from 7% to max 14% (mostly I have from 7% to 9%, Global or Focus no matters).

My actual setup sounds awesome on every single detail of the sound frequencies, from the most lower end to the sparkle highs (always effortless, no matter the quality of the recordings), but my only complain are the mid-lows hump, that I find fatiguing.

Classic music, real-life instruments (guitars, pianos, cellos, etc.) sound perfect in BYPASS and even more with Focus or Global but when we have a song with some punch, I have the issue, that only issue. And in those scenarios is always better BYPASS.
 

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