Promoted Room Treatment – This Year's Snake Oil?

mindforge

Active Member
Good work! Would be interested in seeing photos of your panels. Did you use a mirror to find the reflection points or just put them down the sides?
 

Owl40

Active Member
Yup Mb3195 told me about the mirror technique. Panel making in action with my 12 year old son!
 

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Owl40

Active Member
Another picture of the panels. I have made another since the picture. When I’m back of holidays will take another picture of all the panels so far.
 

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mb3195

Distinguished Member
Another picture of the panels. I have made another since the picture. When I’m back of holidays will take another picture of all the panels so far.

room treatment working for you mate?
 

Owl40

Active Member
The difference is clear. Next on the plan is some more wall panels, some with Rockwool for absorption and then some without for light control. Bass traps in rear corners also on the cards.......
 

craigd

Active Member
I bought a system from Rob about 10 years ago and it’s still going strong. No regrets at all. I have used the same system in 3 different rooms. RoomPerfect is good but each of Audyssey, Dirac, RoomPerfect implementations has pros and cons. I have minor room treatment - on first reflection points in one room - it cost about £200.

I agree with the front corner placement in general but in all 2 rooms this gave me great dynamics but bass nulls I could notice. RoomPerfect will simply not tackle these to my satisfaction. Better seating position WOULD ameliorate this in most rooms but that’s not always an option.

The Lyngdorf 2+2 is a very clever solution and delivers very consistent results. However, it is not as tuneable/flexible as the likes of Dirac and Audyssey with it. Some see that as a benefit and others as a drawback.

I am obsessive and have a reasonable understanding of maths/physics/acoustics so have been able to get results I prefer in some ways with Audyssey in one of my rooms (so I moved Lyngdorf to a different room!). Trouble is Audyssey mostly comes in receivers with much inferior amps and doesn’t have the advanced crossover features for independent configuration on L and R channels like on a Lyngdorf. It also needs tweaking with the app and results verifying with REW in my experience.

Following the Lyngdorf speaker placement recommendations with dual subs and an alternative room correction system set up well can provide very good results (not necessarily better, but still very good) at a much lower price point if you know what you are doing. IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING! I think the all Lyngdorf solutions are probably still superior in most use cases but they are expensive. From what I know about Dirac I am pretty confident I could add an all digital miniDSP Dirac enabled device to the chain between source and TDAI and get a better sound with a fair bit of tweaking - after all I can pick a similar target curve that which is already chosen for me by Lyngdorf!

I think it will be interesting to see how the NAD V778 (using Hypex UcD) and the Dirac enabled miniDSP SHD Power fair as cheaper alternatives to Lyngdorf whilst following the same design principles for the rest of the system.

@Rob Sinden - I am wondering if the NAD with the usual MKSound speakers you recommend may outperform the usual Denon suspects? I believe Lyngdorf use the UcDs at least in the older TDAIs.
 

Owl40

Active Member
Giant DIY bass trap made. Here is some shots of the frame and Rockwool thickness (50cm deep of Rockwool). Frame measures 120cm high, 65cm width and 50cm depth
 

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Owl40

Active Member
Further update - yesterday afternoon I spent a few hours mounting the panels to side walls. The steps I’ve taken:

1) Screw stud wood strips onto each side wall using a stud detector and 80mm wood screws to make sure they are screwed into the studs rather than just into the double layer of acoustic plasterboard. When I move to 7 channels on the base layer I can always hang the 2 speakers from these wood strips too.

2) Measure up panel width and attach french cleats to wood and then the panels. I had to fettle a bit to make sure everything lined up. One panel was pulling away from the wall a bit at the bottom corner so I used a third clear attached to the upper part of the skirting board. I also ran speaker and sub cables behind the pane

Fairly easy to do and also easy to unmount as well.

Next on the plan is to make more side wall panels so that entire wall to MLP is done. Then the ceiling which I will use some 25mm melamine foam from Camstage, 25mm square wood lengths and MVEL22. I will probably screw these directly to the ceiling studs rather than use cleats. The main hold up at the moment is the availability of MVEL 22.
 

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gibbsy

Moderator
Straying a little bit off topic with bringing a build into the thread.

@Owl40 This maybe a better forum for your build.

 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
I’ve made major upgrades to the music and home cinema systems here if anyone is interested in hearing state of the art audio systems.

I’ve had many people from the trade here recently who have said these are the best music and home cinema systems they have ever heard………….. and the best sounding systems have no acoustic treatment.

These are my new toys which I think are the best loudspeakers in the world. LS Concert| Steinway Lyngdorf | The World's finest audio systems
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Buying great audio equipment doesn’t guarantee great sound. Your room will make huge changes to the sound of your speakers which prevents you from enjoying your music and movies at their best.

As the room creates the problem, designing and treating it seems logical, but no matter how carefully this is done, you room will dramatically change the sound of your speakers.

Room treatment promises to reduce these problems but it cannot fix the biggest problems that rooms create and can make sound quality worse, not better.

Few people know much about acoustics which makes them vulnerable to being sold products and solutions they don’t need. If you are buying a home cinema or looking to get the best from your existing system, it’s well worth doing a little research. It could save you a fortune and is the only way to be sure the system you buy provides the best performance at your budget.

I’ve installed over a thousand home cinemas and have built dozens of custom listening rooms. This is my guide to perils and pitfalls of acoustic design and treatment.

Acoustics – Lessons from The Concert Hall

Most people know that some concert venues sound better than others. For 1000’s of years acousticians has been designing spaces to enhance the sound of the musicians and actors on stage and they regard the auditorium and the reverberation it adds as a vital addition to the performance.

View attachment 1273789

The Problem with Home Audio

In the home, the sounds reflected off the walls and other surfaces in the room adds to the direct sound from our speakers. Remove these additions from the room and sound quality will suffer.

One big difference between home audio and concert venues is the size of the spaces involved. The small rooms we use for hifi and home cinema ruin the bass from our speakers because these sounds have long wavelengths that will between the walls in the room. Imagine your room was full of water with waves moving back and forth. At some points in the room, the waves will be really high, while at others there will be big dips. This is what your room does to the bass frequencies, amplifying some sounds while others are cancelled making the overall sound far from accurate.

Love Thy Speakers

Good speakers will have a smooth even frequency response that looks something like this.

View attachment 1273790

The smooth graph illustrates they will reproduce every frequency as loud as the next. This measurement was taken 1m away from the speaker but we typically sit 3-4m away from the speakers in a home cinema. At this distance, more than 80% of the sound you hear will have bounced off the walls and other surfaces in your room.

These graphs show the same speaker measured in 6 different rooms. You can see the smooth, even response of our speaker has gone and the same speaker will sound very different from room to room.

View attachment 1273791
Room Treatment

Room treatment uses panels and other materials placed around the room to try and restore the smooth response your speakers were designed to give. High frequencies can be easily reduced with room treatment but at low frequencies it has almost no effect.

Reducing a wavelength that is say 10cm long needs material half this depth, but as some bass waves are over 10m long, adding the 5m of material 5m needed to absorb them is simply not feasible.

Human hearing deals with 20,000 different wavelengths. Accurately adjusting all of these to restore the even response of your speakers with a few different types of materials just isn’t possible.

As treatment can’t preserve the sound of your speakers, it focuses on a much simpler issue, reducing the reverberation time in the room. The reverberation time of a room is just a measure of how long it takes sounds to die away and become inaudible.

Clap your hands in a room with carpets, curtains and soft furnishings and you’ll hear no echo because the “softs” in the room have absorbed those echoes. Do the same thing in a kitchen or bathroom and you may hear a slight echo because there is nothing soft to absorb the sound.

Most UK listening rooms are carpeted, if not adding a rug in front of the speakers has a similar effect. This gives most UK homes a perfectly good reverberation and makes them for enjoying music and film. If things are too live, just adding a curtain is a very effective way of reducing reverb time.

While reverberation time is an important measure of sound in large commercial spaces, it’s rarely a problem in UK homes and is of limited value as a guide for good audio in the home audio.

Do No Harm

It’s critical that the sound coming directly from your speakers is smooth and even, but it’s also vital that the reflections from walls, etc are also smooth and even. The sound you hear in a room is a combination of direct sound from the speakers and reflections from the room and unless both sound the same, overall sound quality will be compromised.

Whenever treatment is placed on a wall, it will perfectly absorb some frequencies, while reducing others. This changes the sound of the reflections from your room so the overall sound of your speakers is compromised.

Most “acoustic designs” do no real analysis of the room and simply recommend adding a few different types of materials to the walls. These will change the overall sound you hear from your speakers, compromising their performance.

Room Correction - A Solution for Better Sound

Every room will make speakers sound different. The only way to know the effect the room has had is to measure the performance of the speakers in the room. Without this information, achieving accurate sound is impossible.

Electronic room correction systems measure the sound of your speakers in your room and try to correct the peaks and troughs the room has created. These systems vary considerably in quality, but the process of measuring the room and electronically correcting the problems is the only method that has the potential to deliver the best sound quality.

Testing the Theory

There is a huge amount of misinformation talked about audio and selling room design and treatment very lucrative. If you are considering a home theatre or music room please do your own research and trust your ears to guide you.

My business has focused on delivering the very best audio possible for over 30 years. In recent years I’ve heard many great speaker systems that have been ruined by expensive room treatment.

This photo shows a purpose-built listening room we had designed by one of the world’s leading acoustic design firms. It was built to the perfect proportions with extensive bass traps, diffusion panels, adjustable ceiling diffusers and absorption. It’s a far more intelligent design that most systems that simply recommend fixing fabric panels to all the walls.

Once completed, I was totally underwhelmed by the sound of the room. I was regularly installing the same speaker system used in this room, in client’s homes and achieving much better sound without any treatment.

The performance of the system in this room is now exceptional with incredibly even response down to 10Hz. This sound quality has only been achieved by the use of the best bass management and room correction available from Lyngdorf Audio. The state of the art in room design and treatment did not deliver great audio.

View attachment 1273792

This is an illustration of our second cinema where there is no acoustic treatment. The Steinway Lyngdorf system we use here is intended for use in rooms without room treatment. You can immediately hear it is superior to the system in the purpose-built listening room.

View attachment 1273793

We have 5 listening rooms, only one of which has any acoustic treatment. We keep 10 different systems for you to audition, each of which provides accurate frequency response, exceptional bass due to the room correction system used.

There is no acoustic treatment or design process that can deliver these results.

Your listening room is not the enemy whose effects should be eradicated. It should be a positive addition to your audio system. If you are considering a home cinema or great audio system, be sure to find a designer who understands this.

If you wold like to audition these system and put the theory to the test, please get in touch.

When the Virus has passed I look forward to having Forum Open Days once again.

Meanwhile, to read the full story of our state-of-the-art listening room with extensive acoustic design and treatment go to: www.geckohomecinema.com

RoomPerfect is the room correction that we use on all our stereo and surround systems. It the only correction system that preserves the sound of the speakers used, that blends speakers and subwoofers together for optimal bass performance and that gives best results in normal rooms.
Read more at: www.lyngdorf.com

We recommend MK professional loudspeakers system for our home cinema system.
Read more at: www.mkloudspeakers.com

The current state of the art in hifi and home cinema system are Steinway Lyngdorf all digital systems that utilise RoomPerfect. You can read more at: www.steinwaylyngdorf.com

Lastly, you're invited to visit our Facebook page.

I have to agree that Room Perfect is THE ONLY software I've ever heard that actually works. I don't even use my Anthem one as it alters the source too much and fails to integrate the subs, I treat the room instead well and do the integration manually but I would most certainly use RP and that will be my next larger investment in my AV journey.
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Recently built my diffusors and I have to say they nicely impacted the sounds stage.
viber_image_2020-08-14_10-03-25.jpg
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Nice. Have you got a build thread for those beauties?
Not yet but I am happy to share my journey. Also built two subs that are pretty amazing in my view/hearing. Replaced a top end Martin Logan one and they blew me away :) One has a 4Kw pro driver used in commercial cinemas.

z0zhTHR.jpg
 

Triggaaar

Distinguished Member
Not yet but I am happy to share my journey.
Yes please. I fancy making some myself when my build is ready (although I expect I'll have builders fatigue by then).
Also built two subs that are pretty amazing in my view/hearing. Replaced a top end Martin Logan one and they blew me away :) One has a 4Kw pro driver used in commercial cinemas.
Fantastic, I look forward to seeing those too :)
 

Rickyj at Kalibrate

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
If anyone is interested. Trinnov are running a webinar today on "Does Room Correction remove a loudspeakers sound characteristics?" at 4pm today.

Registration here: http://ow.ly/mlSF50Cyi7h
 

Apollo

Well-known Member
If anyone is interested. Trinnov are running a webinar today on "Does Room Correction remove a loudspeakers sound characteristics?" at 4pm today.

Registration here: http://ow.ly/mlSF50Cyi7h
"The purpose of this webinar is to answer the question "Does Room Correction remove a loudspeaker’s sound characteristics"? Many belive that speaker/room correction systems colour loudspeakers characteristics. We are going to discuss why that is not he case and give you more information on what effect the Optimizer does make to your loudspeakers."

Interesting, I wonder how Lyngdorf square this with their pitch of being the only sytem to "preserve the sound of your speakers"? :thumbsdow
 

bandyka

Well-known Member
Will there be a link to view this later? Or perhaps if someone could sum it up here would be greatly appreciated.

OK I see I registered and it offered a link to view later. Will be very interested!
 

solasoft

Novice Member
Let me tell you something. I love the sound and I play with good quality sound for the last 20 years. Of course, I learn new stuff every day, Last night I calibrated my room with a microphone because I was adding more subs to my room and I was always not happy, My hardware is Denon x8500h and 13 channels for Auro 3D. I still learning, But let me tell you something, I spend all day calibrating, and what a difference is I can't explain. The only way to understand buy a microphone learn how to calibrate and you will understand.
 

Liammonty123

Well-known Member
Trinnov will change the characteristics of the speaker a little or a lot.........but it will change it.

RoomPerfect will not change the characteristics of your speakers.
How do they work differently? I’m assuming from your statement RoomPerfect doesn’t change frequency response?
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
All room correction systems except RoomPerfect change your speakers to match a pre-determined response. This changes the sound of your speakers.

After measuring all of your room, not just the seating positions, RoomPerfect creates a target response that’s unique to your speakers and your room.

If you have two different brands of speakers you know well and set up both up with RoomPerfect or any other systems, its very easy to hear.
 

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