Promoted Room Treatment – This Year's Snake Oil?

Rickyj at Kalibrate

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Its very clear that the systems Ricky sells must have treatment for best results. The 10 systems I have here don’t. But the only way you can tell is to Go Compare!

I don't don't remember saying must, but depending on the room it is something that needs to be considered rather than discounting from the off.
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
MISSION - why do you think you need treatment for good sound.

You dont.

I suppose you should let all the studios in the world that produce "good sound" in on your secret - that they don't need acoustic treatment.

Look, I'm sure a 70k Steinway system sounds amazing. In most cases I presume it'll go in a larger than average room that warrants such a system budget. People who understand room acoustics know diffusion (the opposite of absorption or what others confuse for as "treatment") work incredibly well in larger rooms thus a carpeted floor and some curtains may be all that's needed. In this scenario I'm sure the Steinway systems really shine.

However to state "you don't need acoustic treatment" as a broad generalised statement of authority without qualifying it displays a fundamental misunderstanding on this topic.
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member


Thanks, I did and GIK just wanted to plaster the walls and ceilings and corners with treatments...

Every room/system/expectations are different and it depends on how far you are willing or indeed can go. If you make this clear to them they may suggest just treating your primary and/or secondary reflection points.
 

mindforge

Active Member
Every room/system/expectations are different and it depends on how far you are willing or indeed can go. If you make this clear to them they may suggest just treating your primary and/or secondary reflection points.
Yup. I did, but still just a one size fits all solution. Ideally a company would have the confidence to offer a trial period so could see if they genuinely make a difference!
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
Yup. I did, but still just a one size fits all solution. Ideally a company would have the confidence to offer a trial period so could see if they genuinely make a difference!


Mmm, not sure how the logistics and margins would work on that... I suppose if you just want to see if they'll make a difference perhaps diy a couple of panels and take it from there?
 

mindforge

Active Member
Mmm, not sure how the logistics and margins would work on that... I suppose if you just want to see if they'll make a difference perhaps diy a couple of panels and take it from there?
Customer would pay the full price but have a longer return period, say a month.
 

MI55ION

Distinguished Member
Customer would pay the full price but have a longer return period, say a month.
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Well in that case, as per their FAQ section, your wish has been answered l:

"You may return items for a full refund (excluding custom products) within 30 days. We require customers to pay for roundtrip shipping – the cost to send products to you and the cost to ship returns back to us. The entire purchase price of the products will be refunded as soon as we receive the panels. You can see our Return Policy here: GIK Policies page. Simply contact us at [email protected] or +44 (0) 20 3815 8608 (UK)."
 

mindforge

Active Member
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Well in that case, as per their FAQ section, your wish has been answered l:

"You may return items for a full refund (excluding custom products) within 30 days. We require customers to pay for roundtrip shipping – the cost to send products to you and the cost to ship returns back to us. The entire purchase price of the products will be refunded as soon as we receive the panels. You can see our Return Policy here: GIK Policies page. Simply contact us at [email protected] or +44 (0) 20 3815 8608 (UK)."

Yup but excludes custom products. Suppose could give it a go with a couple of the standard frames, at the expense of return costs for large and bulky items. Thanks for looking the terms and conditions up!
 

Seriously Ltd

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
We are also a specialist acoustic treatment and stretch fabric company (Smart Trilogy) as well as cinema designers/builders/installers.

We have a client list ranging from many West End theatres, recording studios, Bank of England, Tate Modern, Royal Society of Arts, Somerset House, The Shard, Royal College of Music to name but a few.

We have not treated our main demonstration cinema room bar fabric walls and carpet.

Our media room has a BASWA acoustic plaster ceiling and professional theatre curtains for the windows to tame the room a little.
[email protected]
 

mindforge

Active Member
We are also a specialist acoustic treatment and stretch fabric company (Smart Trilogy) as well as cinema designers/builders/installers.

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We have a client list ranging from many West End theatres, recording studios, Bank of England, Tate Modern, Royal Society of Arts, Somerset House, The Shard, Royal College of Music to name but a few.

We have not treated our main demonstration cinema room bar fabric walls and carpet.

Our media room has a BASWA acoustic plaster ceiling and professional theatre curtains for the windows to tame the room a little.
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Interesting. I already have acoustic plasterboard on the walls and ceiling and a heavy acoustic curtain over the door. It feels very hushed and dead in there already.
 

mindforge

Active Member
Mindforge - so you dont need treatment............
Better start saving the 70k for the Lyngdorf! Seriously though I added an Antimode, I'm sure it's not in the same league, but the difference is night and day, the best AV or hifi upgrade I have ever bought.
 

mindforge

Active Member
A Lyngdorf 7.2.4 Atmos system starts about £22k, but the same would be true in you had a £10k budget and you were using a Receiver. I’ve been demonstrating systems like this in live untreated rooms for 30 years and they sound incredible.

Come and hear a system like this, in this room and see what you think.

View attachment 1334667

Interesting - is the £22k just for the Lyngdorf unit or does that include the speakers and installation?
 

Apollo

Well-known Member
I’m very happy to have a debate with anyone on this subject. I did this for a trade magazine 6 months ago which led to the video posted above.

If you have good speakers in a big good you’ll have good sound. Put them in a small room and sound quality is compromised. By far the biggest problem your room has created is a change in frequency response. No amount of acoustic design and treatment can fix this. If you can show me any design that does, I’ll give you £1000.

Room correction can correct the response of your speakers and there are dozens of graphs on Forum showing this. This is easy to measure and hear.

The starting point of people selling treatment or design is that because you have a room, you have a problem which in nonsense. People have had great sound in their homes for years without either treatment or room correction.

Its very clear that the systems Ricky sells must have treatment for best results. The 10 systems I have here don’t. But the only way you can tell is to Go Compare!
What would be your general advice please Rob, as to 'treatments' in the scenario below...yes/no or maybe?
Obviously within the limitations of not seeing or being able to hear the room as it currently is.

Brick built pitch tile roof garage conversion
Dimensions 5.1m x 3.6m with 2.4m ceiling
Independent stud walls, 100mm rockwool, OSB/green glue/acoustic plasterboard
Ceiling suspended from stud walls, acoustic plasterboard/green glue/acoustic plasterboard
Floating floor on 150mm Celotex double layer overboarded
Well sealed with double (airlock style) internal doors, drop seals and custom acoustic glazed (20mm of glass!) external window/door
Carpeted with heavy underlay, thick curtains along side walls from screen out to 2m
Kit list as per my signature if it makes any difference

Interested in your thoughts as to whether EQ and correct sub placement alone could get optimal results here.
 

Rock Danger

Distinguished Member
Thanks, I did and GIK just wanted to plaster the walls and ceilings and corners with treatments...

Really? How odd. It's almost like they're in the business of making money and not actually giving a fudge what you want. They do not have your interests at heart. Another 'well respected' company tried to sell a moderator on here a room within a room, when he clearly didn't need it and it wasn't cheap.

I'm glad this dogsh*t doesn't keep me up at night. It's not even complicated - some applications require a dash here and there of diffusion etc. Most UK rooms are fine, some are sh*t. Some room EQ's are good, some are sh*t.

Bad room EQ can't save a bad room, good room eq can get you further or even there, OR good room eq and some treatment will be needed to get you over the line also.

How is this difficult?


When you talk about Lyngdorf and Steinway Lyngdorf - they use the same room correction but their speakers and amps work differently and are in the digital domain, it gives it a massive advantage and like other high end systems, it's priced as such.

Lyngdorf on the other hand (if we exclude the MP60 digital unmodded) works in the typical analogue domain and is required to work with whatever people throw at it. But it still has a really good room correction that works very well, consistently and is easily set up - it's one of the reasons it's so well reviewed and also so popular.

I've worked in dozens of rooms, treated, non treated and partially treated (most studios) and there have been major surprises where things shouldn't work but do and vice versa.

Don't believe me? Cool.Go watch Sound City and then Sonic Highways and then tell me all those engineers are wrong - Nirvana, RATM, Fleetwood Mac, Metallica, Tom Petty to name a few - all recorded in a drum room which on paper, was complete arse and mixed in a control room with basic sh*t carpet for the most part, yet lauded for it's drum sound.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Hi Apollo

I’d find photos of the room useful and ideally sitting in it, but it sounds fairly standard…

With the kit you have I’d say you should get a very good sounding system if you can sit off the back wall. I’d install it and listen and see if there is anything wrong with it or that you find unpleasant and then consider the options for improvements, if required.

Ideally you really should have the closest match of speakers all around and above you. Everyone is excellent at detecting changes in sounds as they move around you and this is obviously going to be something you notice in your room as you have 3 different types of speakers.
 

Apollo

Well-known Member
Hi Apollo

I’d find photos of the room useful and ideally sitting in it, but it sounds fairly standard…

With the kit you have I’d say you should get a very good sounding system if you can sit off the back wall. I’d install it and listen and see if there is anything wrong with it or that you find unpleasant and then consider the options for improvements, if required.

Ideally you really should have the closest match of speakers all around and above you. Everyone is excellent at detecting changes in sounds as they move around you and this is obviously going to be something you notice in your room as you have 3 different types of speakers.
Thanks for your considered thoughts Rob.

Yes, I am sitting well away from the back wall at approximately 39% of the room length away.

The speaker mismatch is being addressed with a change to Arendal surrounds and the possible addition of wides if it proves worthwhile when DTS Pro arrives. Not sure when/if the heights will be upgraded, maybe if Arendal produce some in-ceiling units as rumoured.

I have been considering covering the 1st reflection points on walls and ceiling with ‘light’ treatment (40-50mm absorption). There is a nasty ‘ping’ which sounds like it comes from high up on the back wall which also requires remedying. Particularly noticeable with music on short notes from brass instruments for example.

I don’t see how any EQ would fix this and thus feel the room itself needs attention.
 

Rob Sinden

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
If there is the nasty ping you mention, then treatment of some description is the only solution. I rarely find this in most UK rooms but as its a problem in yours, putting something at the first reflection point is the only solution. Obviously this typically looks ugly but.....

One thing you should be aware of is that the sound you hear is a combination of the direct sound from your speakers and the reflections off the walls. By putting absorption on the wall you will be completely changing the sound of the reflections. This means the overall sound of your speakers will be changed. So while you will be improving clarity and imaging, you will be spoiling the tonality of your speakers.

On balance, I'm sure its the right thing to do it your room, but I think 40mm of absorption is overkill.

A thin piece of fabric would probably be better, cheaper and look nicer , but try it and see.
 

Rickyj at Kalibrate

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Obviously this typically looks ugly but.....

It does not have to look ugly now though. With all the different options available, i.e. printed panels etc, it does not have to be ugly. It does not just need to be a 'slab' anymore.

One thing you should be aware of is that the sound you hear is a combination of the direct sound from your speakers and the reflections off the walls.

This is true, but too much in the way of reflections can cause our brain to get confused, as our brain and ear have to distinguish what is direct sound and what is reflected. If there is too much, or too many reflections it can lead to our brain getting confused and meaning we here a slightly muffled sound as they arrive at different times (the reflections will lag behind the direct sound, as it is a longer route to your ear).

By putting absorption on the wall you will be completely changing the sound of the reflections. This means the overall sound of your speakers will be changed. So while you will be improving clarity and imaging, you will be spoiling the tonality of your speakers.

You are not changing the sound of the speakers at all (you are changing the in room response). You are allowing the natural sound of the speaker to come though, and are removing some of the influence of the room, as you brain finds it easier to analyse the direct sound off the speaker (less reflections). Most speakers are designed and measured in an anechoic chamber so that the room is not influencing the sound of the speaker, beacuse you cannot predict how rooms will influence the speaker response, as there are so many different constructions techniques and materials.
 

Owl40

Active Member
Over the past few weeks I’ve been trying to sort out both light control and some acoustic treatment. I’ve made floor to ceiling Wooden panels which are covered in MVEL22. This has really made the screen pop and I will make some more panels to cover more of the side wall when there is more velvet in stock.

Today I’ve purchased some 50mm Rockwool RWA45. I’ve used this to fill the panels and then used some mesh fabric in the back to hold the Rockwool tight. I’ve used these panels for first reflection areas on the side walls and in the corners as bass traps.

The difference is clear. Dialogue from the centre channel is clearer, with any voice inflections more obvious. Subtle background sounds are more distinct. For example, in the intro to Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy, before Jim is shot there is a faint sound of a baby. I’ve never heard this before when the room was untreated.

I will now concentrate on dealing with ceiling light and sound reflection. I’ve spent £70 on velvet, £100 on Rockwool, £50 on an electric stapler and £30 on fabric mesh for the back. I already had some wood lying around unused. So for £250 it’s a worthwhile upgrade. I will continue to do further DIY light control and will investigate the possibilities of using more Rockwool by building deeper panels for the corners.
 

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