Room recommendations

toolapcblack

Novice Member
Hi New house therefore new listening room.

The room is approximately 4.40 x 5.0m so going to position the speakers (Audio Physic Scorpio 25+)along the 4.40 wall either side of the window so the bass ports fire back onto the solid wall 1-1.5m from all walls. The fireplace to the right protrudes into the room approx 45cm so will mirror this the opposite side with a cupboard/CD racking or another sofa. The floor is concrete so I'm thinking of underlay & fully carpeted rather than laminate floor with a thick rug. I have made room treatments/acoustic panels before out of house insulation so will look into something similar.

Looking for any suggestions as i have never had the luxury of such a large room
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
An amp with room correction will perform better than room treatments which tend to only fix issues within a narrow frequency range so are limited but can also cause issues with the frequencies that do not need fixing. The first issue is working out what frequencies need treating at what point in the room and how do they affect the frequencies that you do not want to treat?

Room correction can work for the whole room and with some types work with the complete range of audible frequencies. Best thing I ever did to improve my sound was moving to an amp with room correction, so much so I also bought another for my second system.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
A good quality, thick felt underlay is always a good idea, as is a good carpet. The first step in making a good listening room.

The AudioPhysics manufacturer makes a big thing of room positioning. It’s not too different to the usual caveats about positioning relative to the mlp , but it’s worth a read.

What amplifier are you using with them?
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Room treatment is a mathematical thing.

You cannot just lob stuff on the walks, of whatever type, and expect much more than a random change. Certainly you’ll be fortunate if it works out ‘better’.

I’d save the cash and put it towards one


Tom from Cinehome can arrange a home loan so you can hear for yourself the excellence that is RoomPerfect.

Or, if it’s too expensive, then one of these is also first class at dealing with any room issues.


DiracLive also does a first class job, and the Arcam is a top class amp too.

Both will wipe out any feasible room treatment.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
An amp with room correction will perform better than room treatments which tend to only fix issues within a narrow frequency range so are limited but can also cause issues with the frequencies that do not need fixing. The first issue is working out what frequencies need treating at what point in the room and how do they affect the frequencies that you do not want to treat?

Room correction can work for the whole room and with some types work with the complete range of audible frequencies. Best thing I ever did to improve my sound was moving to an amp with room correction, so much so I also bought another for my second system.
Electronic room correction (DSP) should be the last resort if all else fails.

Firstly, get suitable furnishings installed - carpet, curtains, soft furnishings, etc that will make the new room as good as possible acoustically

Second, choose the most suitable TYPE of speaker (conventional box, electrostatic, horn, etc) for the room, then the make/model that suits best. This stage has to be ignored if you plan to keep existing speakers of course

Third, placement, placement, placement until the speakers are really singing and sound great

Any shortfall in performance is then best adjusted for by subtle room treatment, though I guess the room will serve more purposes than just listening to music, so don't spoil the room to improve sound.

Lastly, if still not satisfied (this means you've failed in the earlier stages), look at resorting to DSP. Remember that DSP inevitably adds more circuitry and signal processing and this is NEVER great for best sound quality. My present DSP (Dirac Live) can only adjust the sub 500 Hz range but engaging the filter also adversely affects the upper frequencies because of the extra processing (despite no level or timing adjustments) and the effect is that a little of the lifelikeness and the excitement factor is lost. Mediocre speakers are unlikely to make this obvious but you’ll notice it with high end speakers.

I choose to shut out the DSP filter despite a more even response of lower frequencies. It just sounds better without the filter. Same conclusion from MARS, Anthem and RoomPerfect. They all slightly spoil the fun of music despite rendering it "more accurate”!

If DSP is introduced after the crossover and is applied only on the bass side, then it won’t adversely affect the fun factor, but this is not the usual way unless you go for bi-amping. Fortunately I have such a DSP within my own loudspeakers that applies a filter to the bass drivers only.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
Electronic room correction (DSP) should be the last resort if all else fails.

Firstly, get suitable furnishings installed - carpet, curtains, soft furnishings, etc that will make the new room as good as possible acoustically

Second, choose the most suitable TYPE of speaker (conventional box, electrostatic, horn, etc) for the room, then the make/model that suits best. This stage has to be ignored if you plan to keep existing speakers of course

Third, placement, placement, placement until the speakers are really singing and sound great

Any shortfall in performance is then best adjusted for by subtle room treatment, though I guess the room will serve more purposes than just listening to music, so don't spoil the room to improve sound.

Lastly, if still not satisfied (this means you've failed in the earlier stages), look at resorting to DSP. Remember that DSP inevitably adds more circuitry and signal processing and this is NEVER great for best sound quality. My present DSP (Dirac Live) can only adjust the sub 500 Hz range but engaging the filter also adversely affects the upper frequencies because of the extra processing (despite no level or timing adjustments) and the effect is that a little of the lifelikeness and the excitement factor is lost. Mediocre speakers are unlikely to make this obvious but you’ll notice it with high end speakers.

I choose to shut out the DSP filter despite a more even response of lower frequencies. It just sounds better without the filter. Same conclusion from MARS, Anthem and RoomPerfect. They all slightly spoil the fun of music despite rendering it "more accurate”!

If DSP is introduced after the crossover and is applied only on the bass side, then it won’t adversely affect the fun factor, but this is not the usual way unless you go for bi-amping. Fortunately I have such a DSP within my own loudspeakers that applies a filter to the bass drivers only.
Then you’ve done it wrong.

Non professional room treatment is a lottery and is much more likely to make things worse.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
I vote for Room Correction over room treatment. Who wants to ruin a perfectly nice room with random objects having a questionable effect? It no longer has to be that way. Modern DSP RC systems make room treatment unnecessary and they don’t inherently have a detrimental effect on SQ.

Dirac can be a little heavy handed but with the full version you have complete control over the frequency response if you’re willing to spend the time. I believe that Dirac always corrects the ‘impulse response’ though, regardless of what you do with the frequency response, which theoretically ought to be only beneficial, but it should be a user choice.

I recommend Lyngdorf/RoomPerfect.
 

Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
I vote for Room Correction over room treatment. Who wants to ruin a perfectly nice room with random objects having a questionable effect? It no longer has to be that way. Modern DSP RC systems make room treatment unnecessary and they don’t inherently have a detrimental effect on SQ.

Dirac can be a little heavy handed but with the full version you have complete control over the frequency response if you’re willing to spend the time. I believe that Dirac always corrects the ‘impulse response’ though, regardless of what you do with the frequency response, which theoretically ought to be only beneficial, but it should be a user choice.

I recommend Lyngdorf/RoomPerfect.

I used a Meridian Director with the MiniDSP DiracLive implementation.

Measurements showed that Dirac did indeed clean up the impulse response, but that the Meridian did it better.

And I have to say, the apparent extra clarity (less smudging) it seemed to bring, was my preferred choice.

However, the Meridian also kills ‘pre-ringing’ which may have been responsible.

When it gets down to such tiny (but eminently worthwhile) differences I’d need an audio engineer with a full test suite to tell me which is which.

I don’t think RoomPerfect does anything to the impulse response. And if not I consider it a bit of a missed chance.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
Then you’ve done it wrong.

Non professional room treatment is a lottery and is much more likely to make things worse.
There's nothing to go wrong. My Dirac Live will measure the full frequency range but the version I have can only ADJUST sub 500 Hz - fact. Nevertheless the upper frequencies that produce the feeling of lifelike performance are not the sub 500 ones but the higher ones. Fact is that the entire signal receives an extra layer of processing as it's not split - everything goes to the speakers down a single cable. This extra processing (like every layer of processing eg tone controls) will never improve the sound - it will do the reverse.

Unless the signal is split and sent to different amps, with only the bass amp being DSP'd, then it's all subject to an extra layer of processing. Do you disagree? If so, please explain your logic.

If you have speakers that really offer a lifelike presentation, the music suffers from this extra processing. Granted, if your room is particularly bad and you place speakers badly (or they are mediocre quality), running Dirac (or RoomPerfect in your Lyngdorf) will seemingly improve the sound, possibly significantly. There's no denying that my bass is more accurate with the DSP filter, but there's equally no denying that the upper frequencies lose a little of their sparkle, despite not being adjusted by Dirac. If this isn't because of the additional processing of the entire signal, please explain how this could be.

I'm not trying to downplay the advantages of DSP in many people's systems - just offering an explanation for my findings that the "goosebump factor" (or Musical Engagement factor as Jim Smith describes it) is slightly diminished with this extra processing layer.

You don't need "professional room treatment" to improve a new room's acoustics. I moved into a large roughly semi-circular glass-walled space where the acoustics were dire. By adding curtains and about 30% floor carpeting plus other furnishings, the acoustics dramatically improved - with no professional help. They are far from perfect but careful speaker setting up makes things much better. DPS makes the bass more even but there are (as I've described) inevitable consequencies. The old saying that the best amplifier is "A Straight Wire with Gain" has a degree of truth. Every process along the wire spoils this ideal to some degree and DSP is no exception
 
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Paul7777x

Distinguished Member
There’s obviously no argument that speaker positioning is important. Even with room correction.

But that does not alter the fact that every room is a huge part of the playback system.

Nor does it change the fact that each room, regardless of speaker positioning, adds to the sound, and that therefore I’m not going to hear the recording as it was recorded. I can’t, because the room has added to or subtracted from the frequency response (at least).

And contrary to your claim, I’ve found that both Dirac and Room Perfect have improved the better, more sophisticated, speakers performance more than the cheap ones I’ve owned and tried with both.

Ps, the old cliche of straight wire with gain is incomplete. It should state straight wire with linear gain. That is what DSP based room correction does. It removes the non linear amplification of the speakers caused by the rooms contribution.

So a room correction software enabled amp is actually considerably more like a straight wire with gain than an actual straight wire with gain.

When you’ve found a way to measure ‘musical engagement factor’ and especially the not at all ridiculous sounding ‘goosebump factor’ I’d seriously like to know.

Oh, and good luck.
 

Hear Here

Active Member
DT79 said:

Who wants to ruin a perfectly nice room with random objects having a questionable effect? It no longer has to be that way.

Totally agree, hence my suggestions for sensible furnishings rather than ugly acoustic panels, etc. However getting the room right by putting in some effort with furnishings is the best start.

Modern DSP RC systems make room treatment unnecessary and they don’t inherently have a detrimental effect on SQ.

Absolutely not. No DSP can eliminate or even control reverberation for example - room furnishings can. Similarly most undesirable acoustic problems can be improved this way - as a first step. Do you believe that the additional processing that DSP requires actually improves sound quality? See my previous remarks above about "A Straight Wire with Gain".

Have you ever been to a concert? Did you feel a sense of excitement of this live performance? Did you concern yourself about the acoustics of the venue? Did you feel that the sound would be improved if it had been captured and "adjusted" to suit the hall? OK, let's go a step further to suggest that your logic requires that every seat in the hall should receive a different DSP filter as the acoustics will vary from seat to seat. It's all nonsense. You want as exciting a performance as the musicians can offer and wherever you sit, you should enjoy it - despite some seats receiving "inaccurate" bass or highs.
 

Kingchin

Active Member
DT79 said:

Who wants to ruin a perfectly nice room with random objects having a questionable effect? It no longer has to be that way.

Totally agree, hence my suggestions for sensible furnishings rather than ugly acoustic panels, etc. However getting the room right by putting in some effort with furnishings is the best start.

Modern DSP RC systems make room treatment unnecessary and they don’t inherently have a detrimental effect on SQ.

Absolutely not. No DSP can eliminate or even control reverberation for example - room furnishings can. Similarly most undesirable acoustic problems can be improved this way - as a first step. Do you believe that the additional processing that DSP requires actually improves sound quality? See my previous remarks above about "A Straight Wire with Gain".

Have you ever been to a concert? Did you feel a sense of excitement of this live performance? Did you concern yourself about the acoustics of the venue? Did you feel that the sound would be improved if it had been captured and "adjusted" to suit the hall? OK, let's go a step further to suggest that your logic requires that every seat in the hall should receive a different DSP filter as the acoustics will vary from seat to seat. It's all nonsense. You want as exciting a performance as the musicians can offer and wherever you sit, you should enjoy it - despite some seats receiving "inaccurate" bass or highs.
I agree I personally think too much room correction robs the speakers of the music. For the lower bass to smooth out it's ok but mids and treble is a preference thing using room correction EQ. Matthew Poes from Audioholics done a couple of YouTube videos last year about room correction software. Bass has the most benefit and audible improvement from room correction.
PicsArt_04-28-03.05.47.jpg

I bet in a blindfolded listening test more people would hear a more noticeable audible difference with a accousticly treated room. Than with a untreated room with room correction used.
 

Kingchin

Active Member
Modern DSP RC systems make room treatment unnecessary and they don’t inherently have a detrimental effect on SQ.
Tell that to the high end music studios listening rooms 🤦🏾‍♂️ they all use a combination of room treatment and room correction 👍🏾 room correction simply won't stop the sound waves repeatedly bouncing from wall to wall and ceiling muddying the sound.

By treating the first and secondary reflection points with absorption and diffusion scattering. You dampen some lows, mids, scatter some mids and highs. You personally might not like acoustic room treatment but the fact is it makes the music sound audibly better than a untreated room 👌🏾
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
@Kingchin But we don't live in high end studios, we live in normal houses and treating a room in the same way as a studio is not practical.

Room treatment is rarely implemented properly in private houses and will always be at the mercy of living requirements unlike a studio. However until you have heard a well implemented room correction system then you are at a disadvantage. Having heard both (and own two systems with room correction) then my money is with room correction. Room treatments are limited in their approach and without significant measurement and testing can never cover all of the issues of a room and still leave you with a room you would want to live in. If I re-arrange or move furniture I rerun the room correction - simple. Not quite so easy with room treatment that was installed for a particular layout.
 

DT79

Well-known Member
Tell that to the high end music studios listening rooms 🤦🏾‍♂️ they all use a combination of room treatment and room correction 👍🏾 room correction simply won't stop the sound waves repeatedly bouncing from wall to wall and ceiling muddying the sound.

By treating the first and secondary reflection points with absorption and diffusion scattering. You dampen some lows, mids, scatter some mids and highs. You personally might not like acoustic room treatment but the fact is it makes the music sound audibly better than a untreated room 👌🏾
What @larkone said.

Most room problems are in the bass. You try implementing effective room treatments that will address the bass region and see what kind of living room you’re left with. Likewise, if you plan on treating all your first and second reflection points, what is the room going to look like?

Now, if you can deal with first reflection points on the side walls in an unobtrusive way, to clean up your mids/highs then great, but seriously with a system like RoomPerfect, you really don‘t need to. The end results speak for themselves.
 

Steve356

Distinguished Member
My system is a lounge that is fully carpeted with a couple of sofas. I've placed my seating position, speakers and sub as best I can within the practicalities of the room. There is no way I would add any room treatments on walls and I seriously doubt I would get the necessary WAF if I did consider it.

Since I added a Lyngdorf TDAi-3400 with RoomPerfect, my ears tell me that I'm getting the performance I want across all the genres of music I listen to. I've tried Dirac over the course of the last few years without success, no matter how much I restricted its frequency range. Also tried ARC and Audyssey at home without success. Only RP has worked for me to date.
 
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Kingchin

Active Member
@Kingchin But we don't live in high end studios, we live in normal houses and treating a room in the same way as a studio is not practical.

Room treatment is rarely implemented properly in private houses and will always be at the mercy of living requirements unlike a studio. However until you have heard a well implemented room correction system then you are at a disadvantage. Having heard both (and own two systems with room correction) then my money is with room correction. Room treatments are limited in their approach and without significant measurement and testing can never cover all of the issues of a room and still leave you with a room you would want to live in. If I re-arrange or move furniture I rerun the room correction - simple. Not quite so easy with room treatment that was installed for a particular layout.
I know that and and have even said in previous comments in the forum that most people have a partner WAF. And even if they didn't wouldn't want to use room treatments because it would mess up their own room decor.

But the OP who started this thread doesn't have this problem. He said in his opening post he was going to try using DIY acoustic room treatment panels along with correctly positioning his speakers.

Room treatment isn't rocket science it's way easier to implement for the average Joe than using room correction. Yes it doesn't solve every problem but it certainly tames down the sound reflections repeatedly bouncing from wall to wall so you can hear more of the music instead of hearing more of the room.

Whereas using room correction to actually use it properly get it done accurately without introducing problems. You would need the spinorana data of your specific speakers. I've not seen anyone on the forum who actually has done this, measured using a £3000 to £30,000 professional calibrated microphone to get the spinorana data.
PicsArt_04-28-04.55.51.jpg
PicsArt_04-28-05.00.14.jpg
It's recommended for home music listening that with well made good speaker's room correction won't have much benefit apart from if you use a subwoofer. As the speakers will be reasonably room friendly in normal rooms. But unfortunately not all rooms are good for speakers, even for some of the well made speaker's, plus not all speakers are room friendly. Avforums themselves say in the room correction features that the physical room accounts for most of the sound you hear out of the speakers.
PicsArt_04-28-04.16.57.jpg
PicsArt_04-28-04.17.23.jpg
 
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Kingchin

Active Member
My system is a lounge that is fully carpeted with a couple of sofas. I've placed my seating position, speakers and sub as best I can within the practicalities of the room. There is no way I would add any room treatments on walls and I seriously doubt I would get the necessary WAF if I did consider it.

Since I added a Lyngdorf TDAi-3400 with RoomPerfect and my ears tell me that I'm getting the performance I want across all the genres of music I listen to. I've tried Dirac over the course of the last few years without success, no matter how much I restricted its frequency range. Also tried ARC and Audyssey at home without success. Only RP has worked for me to date.
If I was using any room correction software I would probably use RoomPerfect or Trinnov. As RoomPerfect is less intrusive doesn't affect the natural sound of the speakers as much. And also Trinnov is used by a lot of sound engineers etc without affecting much the natural sounds quality from the speakers.
 
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Hear Here

Active Member
I know that and and have even said in previous comments in the forum that most people have a partner WAF. And even if they didn't wouldn't want to use room treatments because it would mess up their own room decor.

But the OP who started this thread doesn't have this problem. He said in his opening post he was going to try using DIY acoustic room treatment panels along with correctly positioning his speakers.

Room treatment isn't rocket science it's way easier to implement for the average Joe than using room correction. Yes it doesn't solve every problem but it certainly tames down the sound reflections repeatedly bouncing from wall to wall so you can hear more of the music instead of hearing more of the room.

Whereas using room correction to actually use it properly get it done accurately without introducing problems. You would need the spinorana data of your specific speakers. I've not seen anyone on the forum who actually has done this, measured using a £3000 to £30,000 professional calibrated microphone to get the spinorana data.
View attachment 1502256It's recommended for home music listening that with well made good speaker's room correction won't have much benefit. As the speakers will be reasonably room friendly in normal rooms. But unfortunately not all rooms are good for speakers, even for some of the well made speaker's, plus not all speakers are room friendly. Avforums themselves say in the room correction features that he physical room accounts for most of the sound you hear out of the speakers.
Remember that an article written by someone with a vested interest in the result, is generally not worth reading.

Favourable facts can be exagerated or others ignored so such an author can easily skew his conclusion towards what is in his best interest. The article you quoted seems to have been written by or for RoomPerfect.

If room correction is all it's cracked out to be, what's the point of speaker builders spending time and effort in designing a good sounding speaker with flat frequency response? All they need to to is provide 2 or 3 drivers that are capable of reproducing all frequences within their spec with crossovers to protect from unsuitable frequencies and then leave RoomPerfect or other DSPs to make wonderful sparkling music with a flat respose in whichever room they are placed! What rubbish - Heaven forbid!
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
If room correction is all it's cracked out to be, what's the point of speaker builders spending time and effort in designing a good sounding speaker with flat frequency response? All they need to to is provide 2 or 3 drivers that are capable of reproducing all frequences within their spec with crossovers to protect from unsuitable frequencies and then leave RoomPerfect or other DSPs to make wonderful sparkling music with a flat respose in whichever room they are placed! What rubbish - Heaven forbid!
You are missing the point that speaker manufacturers make speakers to give the best response in an anechoic chamber because it is impractical to design something to cover every room or situation. You're argument is trying to find way to discredit room correction by developing an idea that is non-sensical and as you have said the 'What Rubbish - Heaven forbid' only really applies to your skewed argument. You really haven't heard a well implemented room correction system have you?

One of the major buyer groups reported by the dealers for the eye wateringly expensive (for us mere mortals) Steinway Lyngdorf systems which includes RoomPerfect, are musicians because they claim it reproduces closest to their original sound - go figure.

But if you want to decorate your room with large blocks of foam or anti reflection panels in an attempt to temper the damage a room can impart then enjoy :thumbsup: . I know what I prefer.
 
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Kingchin

Active Member
You are missing the point that speaker manufacturers make speakers to give the best response in an anechoic chamber because it is impractical to design something to cover every room or situation. You're argument is trying to find way to discredit room correction by developing an idea that is non-sensical and as you have said the 'What Rubbish - Heaven forbid' only really applies to your skewed argument. You really haven't heard a well implemented room correction system have you?

One of the major buyer groups reported by the dealers for the eye wateringly expensive (for us mere mortals) Steinway Lyngdorf systems which includes RoomPerfect, are musicians because they claim it reproduces closest to their original sound - go figure.

But if you want to decorate your room with large blocks of foam or anti reflection panels in an attempt to temper the damage a room can impart then enjoy :thumbsup: . I know what I prefer.
Just remember that Peter Lyngdorf created RoomPerfect because he kept going into people's rooms that were untreated and sounded awful compared to the acoustically treated rooms he had been in. He stated that the room accounts for anywhere from 40% to 80% of the sound performance you will get out of your speakers.

But yeah I've heard good things about RoomPerfect not sounding artificial like some room corrections can. It's good for WAF lol or guy's who don't want to put acoustic panels on the walls etc. I'm currently installing 14 acoustic panels on the front, sides, back walls. But I'm quite creative so it actually looks nice in my living room.
 

larkone

Distinguished Member
@Kingchin and how are you ensuring the construction of those will exactly correct the errors the room creates?
 

Kingchin

Active Member
@Kingchin and how are you ensuring the construction of those will exactly correct the errors the room creates?
Room treatment is very easy to implement it's not rocket science unlike room correction which is way more complicated. First you find out the reflections points on the walls, then you check the specs of the panels on the websites and choose the ones with the right specs that actually will make a difference to the room. A few of the room treatment companies offer advice based on the dimensions of your room and the structure of the walls. Research online and watching Audioholics Room treatment YouTube videos with Anthony Grimani one of the best Acoustician's in the world.

Whereas you using room correction you aren't a expert so you won't know along with the improvements what errors the room correction is also adding to sound coming out of the speakers. And you won't have a professionally calibrated £3000 - £30,000 microphone plus the knowledge required to measure the spinorana data of your specific speakers. To ensure the curve the speaker manufacturer used for the speaker design isn't altered changed. I'm not saying room correction isn't useful WAF etc but to actually do it properly with the full benefits takes a lot of skill.
 
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