Romey's Screen 3 | Basement room | House build underway

Romey

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Hello folks - putting my thoughts down in one place. Early planning stage for a new build basement room.

Given the wealth of knowledge and experience here I'm grateful for all input.

Aim for the room - a place I can go and escape to, and have film watching be an event. I love getting lost in a film regardless of the setup, and equally enjoy the audio visual side of things. I want no regrets as far as my budget allows. Eg would be very happy with the new Epson laser. Will ultimately buy a trinnov. Not cheap for me but something to work towards.

I'm trying to play the long game here, slowly build up the kit as I go. I've got no DIY skill, although my brother is handy and local.
 
The house is scheduled to finish Spring 2023. Basement room is 6x5x2.5m, well finished with parquet floor and light well style windows.

Here's the entire basement floor plan.
Screenshot_20220306-200618_Drive.jpg
 
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Where my reading and planning has lead so far:
  • seating at 4m for room modes. 1 row. 3-4 seats with one perfectly central.
  • Looking at JTR speakers behind an AT screen and partial baffle wall
  • 159in diagonal 16:9 I'll use primarily masked down for scope (150in diagonal) and TV (120 diagonal) with manual panels. Espon laser will fill that. XYScreens looks great option.
  • dark as possible/velvet or black fabric around screen and ceiling, dark non black colours behind sight line. Dark thick rug for wooden floor
  • 9.2.6 set up. Base 9 in standard positions. 2 subs seems fine (90% I'll watch alone, then wife, occasional friends). 6 ceiling speakers in the Trinnov hybrid layout
  • JTR LCRs can play full range (215rm)- look at monoblock amps for them. Reminaing speakers will be JTR 110s. 23cm deep mounted on wall /ceiling.
  • accoustic treatment - looking for professional input so this sounds the best it can. Should be room to hide treatments in partial baffle wall and behind fabric/columns/panels to hide speakers
  • Less worried about sound isolation. Living room directly above, bedrooms above that. Concrete walls and ceilings. Will decouple speakers and subs from walls. Could add a decoupled wall in the hallway space if needed.
  • ventilation, the windows allow some airflow. If room becomes stuffy will add some ventilation to hallway.
  • given equipment, will run one dedicated 32amp electrical circuit for the room.
  • existing harmony control, at least until a DIY alternative comes along
  • haven't figured out lighting yet.
  • equipment will be in room on back wall on/in some custom cabinet.
 
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A very simplistic drawing, more or less to scale.

Updated: wides now intersect distance between LR and Sides, leaving 53° angle and within dolby 50-70° range.
LR angle more accurately measured. 25° toe-in and exact distance from wall - leaves 48° LR angle from MLP. If prefer that to be wider, but putting them in corners overly complicates sub placement, and screen frame in way if nudged a bit.
Still need to double check top front and rear.

Screenshot_20220401-111030_Samsung Notes.jpg
 
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Very rough draft plans...

Pre build
  • extra electric circuit
  • plenty of electric sockets
  • move door to mid point on wall
  • sell current speakers can buy 5 jtr 110s for current room use also
  • have acoustic and baffle wall plans final (professional input or lots of research)

After move in

Step 1,
5.1 with JTR 110s, existing sub midpoint of back wall based on REW simulation. Buy screen XY Screen , build screen wall frame, basic set up. Sell Epson 9400W buy LS12000B.

Step 2,
Buy JTRs for 7.1.4 speakers, 215rms LCR
with existing anthem and emotiva amp

Step 3,
Acoustic treatment and baffle wall, buy Apollon amplifiers (monoblocks for lcr and purify 12 channel
Try running lcr full range /integrating with minidsp
Buy decent seats

Step 4,
Trinnov 16 channel, and remaining speakers for 9.2.6, finish furnishing /walls /ceiling.
Second sub depending on impact of full range lcr integration

I'm sure I've missed a bunch of things and will change order depending on how each step goes.

Exciting :)
 
This looks like it'll be fun! What budget do you have overall for this?
Taking the multiple year, step by step approach. Looking at about €100k all in... Which is a crazy number for me. Spread over 10 years it makes more sense... And if I can't save enough then the later more expensive steps can be reduced or removed. If I'm lucky then 5 years for everything.
 
Question on compression driver and wave guides vs dome tweeters.

I'm very much leaning towards the compression driver and wave guides of JTR speakers - more cinematic and exceptional speakers by all accounts.

On the dome side I'm seeing if it's feasible to look at the new Perlistens (would mean selling my organs, or increasing the amount of time until my system is complete).

It's practically impossible to demo horn/waveguide/compression drivers here in Germany. I could get a good Perlisten demo soon.

My wallet, and heart are pointing to the compression and waveguides.

What benefits do the dome tweeters have? More detail?
Or what is the compromise of compression driver and wave guide?

I'm looking at room treatment, and baffle design from AcousticFrontiers which I feel will help get the best from both speakers and reduce/manage any negatives.

@Peter Parker @DLxP @Smurfin you all seem to be experienced and knowledgeable in this area - any input or hints on where to read more? Thank you!
 
The benefit of a compression driver isn't really the driver itself, but the fact they usually sit in fairly large horns/waveguides. That means added sensitivity and improved directivity control, which is something I find beneficial for home cinema. They also tend to have less dynamic compression and produce higher SPL, but it's certainly possible to find dome-based speakers that can play uncomfortably loud with minimal compression/distortion.
 
Domes and CDs sound different, and domes tend to be less efficient, so will struggle to get the sound to the audience in comparison, especially over longer distances (the square rule applies for distance). If you need to turn the volume up more you've more chance of distortion. Domes (unless in a waveguide and there are some) tend to spray the sound in all directions, whereas CDs with waveguides aim them more at the audience and less towards the walls floor and ceiling, so better directivity and less treatment needed for reflections. Domes can be said to be a little warmer and less detailed than CDs, but I would think in a direct comparison you'd still hear all the same sounds, just with a difference. Perhaps the CDs sounds as if they have more 'clarity' but those kinds of descriptions like many in the audio world don't really tell you much technically. It may just boil down to personal preference. Waveguides can potentially have issues with the sound bouncing around within the waveguide before exit so if that's audible that's probably not a good thing. Pros and cons with both designs.

I can't really explain why I prefer CDs, but I do, and I think it's the type of sound which tends to sound a bit more visceral than the domes I've heard. I tried some PA speakers, many of which didn't sound that good, but I did find some that sounded fine (to me at least) and measured well, and I ended up with some Behringer B215XLs (tried one, liked it and bought two more). The crossover could do with tweaking to bring the crossover lower, but having heard some other more expensive and highly rated CD design speakers, I'm not sure that the extra cost is warranted for me. Definitely a case of diminishing returns. Here's a link to an AVS thread pertaining to the Behringers:


For the price of one, for me it was a no brainer to buy to try and test. If I sold it on I wouldn't lose much and that loss is just the cost of getting some experience which can often be priceless.

With speakers there's definitely a thing that more expensive is better, but from my perspective that might be the case, but the amount of better certainly isn't always reflected in the price difference. Having said that, the best speakers I've ever heard are some ATC SCM300s, and they use domes, not CDs with waveguides. At around £45k new, they should be good:


Other speakers that get rave reviews that use CDs are the JBL M2s (much more affordable):


I did build some 8" speakers using a design found over on Audiokarma and other places that was started by a guy called Zilch (RIP. See link below for the details), and that cost a little more than the Behringer's. It uses a Constant Directivity waveguide (a highly recommended design for it's off axis delivery and good sound power reproduction) and works well. I'm not much of an audiophile (so take everything I say with a pinch of salt), but others have said they image well (when they listened to mine), so work well for stereo/music listening too.


Google Econowave for more of the 'movement'.

DIYSoundGroup grew from Zilch's idea, and the SEOS guides are their waveguide design. This is their home theatre page, but plenty more designs there:


Floyd Toole has done some research into audio and speakers and has produce a few books in his time, which make for good informative reading (he also promotes constant directivity waveguides). His point about 'sound power' is what makes a speaker good, and constant directivity tends to deliver that:

Amazon product ASIN 0240520092
An interesting video here with him giving a lecture that is definitely worth a watch:



People like Dr. Earl Geddes and Wayne Parnham support waveguide speakers, and Waynes site is worth a look, with a white paper that goes into details about them (and others that are worth a read):


There are probably discussions over on AVS that might be worth looking at for more info and opinions, like this one:


I feel like I've said a lot but not really told you much. A demo is probably the only way to be sure, otherwise it's just opinions which quite often don't really count for much since they can all be different. As Zilch used to say: "More data, less w@nk"...
1648552206904.png
 
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The benefit of a compression driver isn't really the driver itself, but the fact they usually sit in fairly large horns/waveguides. That means added sensitivity and improved directivity control, which is something I find beneficial for home cinema. They also tend to have less dynamic compression and produce higher SPL, but it's certainly possible to find dome-based speakers that can play uncomfortably loud with minimal compression/distortion.
Much more concise and to the point than my offering lol.
 
I just love CDs and horns....for movies they convey an experience that imho you can't easily replicate with most "consumer" designs. I find it very difficult to describe, but of course...it all really comes down to the room.
 
Much more concise and to the point than my offering lol.
But a lot less interesting as a result!

People like Dr. Earl Geddes and Wayne Parnham support waveguide speakers,
Geddes' stuff on this is especially interesting. Particularly his research (for BMS or B&C, I can't recall which driver manufacturer) that the CD itself isn't actually all that important compared to the waveguide. He found - surprisingly - that a CD's non-linear distortion, or lack thereof, is less of a determinant of sound quality than is the waveguide it sits in. Which really points to how important the waveguide is.
 
Constant Directivity waveguides do seem to be the key component with those guys (as per Zilchs's Econowave). I wonder how the B215XLs would fair with a Pyle PH612 waveguide in a similar cabinet with suitable crossover. If I was as keen as I used to be, I'd probably have a go at that - with programs like XSim its relatively easy to knock up a crossover, but my skill/knowledge to get it as good as it could be is limited. The SEOS guides are probably the best choice for DIY or mods. Maybe for my next build :)
 
I feel like I've said a lot but not really told you much.
On the contrary - I appreciate it, and your experience & perspective help my understanding and decision process.

JTR plan remains: Cheaper entry point. Possible earlier entry point if I can sell my current M&Ks, cheaper in total, even with shipping. Not paying for looks. Big waveguide. Angled surrounds fit wides, heights, tops nicely. Negative of them being harder to move on if I move house and can't fit them in new place... think I'll just cross that bridge if it comes.

Need to decide early as the baffle wall and treatment will be designed around the speakers.
 
Need to decide early as the baffle wall and treatment will be designed around the speakers.
Yes, once you've built the wall, it's not going to be easy to move the speakers again, or go larger. Smaller is easier as you can fill the gap with foam.
 
You’d undoubtedly be paying for the design and aesthetics with the Perlisten. No doubts they’d sound amazing, but for performance/value I’d imagine the JTR would wipe the floor with them.
 
You’d undoubtedly be paying for the design and aesthetics with the Perlisten. No doubts they’d sound amazing, but for performance/value I’d imagine the JTR would wipe the floor with them.
Thanks Mark - yes that's where my thinking is. Just started order process for first jtr 110s I can use now in 5.1 and before getting 215rms LCR in the new house 😀
 
Thanks Mark - yes that's where my thinking is. Just started order process for first jtr 110s I can use now in 5.1 and before getting 215rms LCR in the new house 😀

Wow....I'm not jealous, at all :-D
 
Wow....I'm not jealous, at all :-D
110s get here in ~2 months... the 215s will be another year - need to both save up, and have the space for them. The anticipation and journey just as fun as the end product :D
 
Right - decided to go ahead with Acoustic Frontiers to model both room treatment and baffle wall for the room.

Baffle wall I could likely design myself - have all measurements done for speakers, toe-in angle etc... But I'm not confident on acoustic treatment. Have played around with a few ray tracing calculators and treatment simulations but a fool with a tool is still a fool.

Want to get this step right above anything else so worth some early budget. Nyal is a very straightforward experienced guy which gives confidence.
 
Thanks Mark - yes that's where my thinking is. Just started order process for first jtr 110s I can use now in 5.1 and before getting 215rms LCR in the new house 😀
how much did it end up costing? I'm always thinking about getting JTR.
 
Thanks Mark - yes that's where my thinking is. Just started order process for first jtr 110s I can use now in 5.1 and before getting 215rms LCR in the new house 😀

any reason for going RM over RT?
 
Is there a reason you are are orientating it with screen on left wall? The gap between your L/R and wides is less than 20 degrees which I guess is down to the position of your entrance door.

If it was me I would put the screen on the right wall. The door would be more to the side than the front which is less distracting if people are coming and going and there would be room to fix the wides to + - 60 degrees.
 

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