Rogers LS4a and large toe-in.

[FootHealer]

Hi guys (and possibly girls).

I just bought a pair of Rogers LS4a speakers in very good condition and for a triffling sum. Thought I'd have a go at upgrading an older speaker to see if I can make something more out of it (new binding posts, upgrading/recapping, replacing veener, extra cabinet reinforcement, etc). Have contacted Wilmslow Audio about this and am waiting for a reply.

What caught my eye was the manufacturer's setup recommendations for the LS4a. They recommend toeing in the speakers so that the drivers cross in front of the listener. I have heard that Ken Ishiwata used to set up speakers this way, but I've not ever tried it myself. Am going to have a go, but was wondering if anyone had any thoughts or experience with this?

Kind regards...

 

[Orobas]

The bulk of speakers all say the same.. with the "triangle" image to show the setup ...
Some say to cross just infront of the head... others just behind...
Toe in is user preference based on their own rooms typically... not everyone has a single chair smack bang in the middle of a room dedicated for listening lol.. we all have our sofas and armchairs in all kinds of positions in our modern rooms.. so the angle of attack from the speakers will be very much trial and error for you at your home as it would be for me at mine!

 

[FootHealer]

The bulk of speakers all say the same.. with the "triangle" image to show the setup ...
Some say to cross just infront of the head... others just behind...
Toe in is user preference based on their own rooms typically... not everyone has a single chair smack bang in the middle of a room dedicated for listening lol.. we all have our sofas and armchairs in all kinds of positions in our modern rooms.. so the angle of attack from the speakers will be very much trial and error for you at your home as it would be for me at mine!

Thanks, Orobas. I have tried more agressive toe-in before, with the direct axis of the drivers pointing more or less directly between my ears and find that I prefer less toe-in, as it gives me the impression of a wider standstage. I will probably try the LS4a speakers in a few difference setups to see what works

 

[Khazul]

Toe in to cross over can have some advantages:
Wider sweet spot where center is still in the center
Can be less colored by side room reflections, so more direct sound

Downside
In narrow room side reflections are opposite channel which can be wierd
Can result in narrower stereo image

In general toe in is a compromise to find the most desirable spot in the blend of on axis vs off axis response vs limiting impact of side reflections.

Toe in to cross over in front aims to increase the distance to the first reflection to give your brain a chance to separate direct sound from side reflected sound instead of just perceiving it as sound colouring. This only works if the extra distance turns out to be sufficient to affect the delay of the side reflection enough for the side reflection to be considered by your brain to actually be a reflection. It also aims to widen the center by giving you more on axis sound of the opposite speaker while giving more off axis sound of the nearest speaker as you move away from ideal listening position. Kind of illusion of auto-balancing as you move.

In the end try it - it may or may not work out for any given speaker setup+room and how you want the system to behave in various locations around the room.

 

[FootHealer]

Toe in to cross over can have some advantages:
Wider sweet spot where center is still in the center
Can be less colored by side room reflections, so more direct sound

Downside
In narrow room side reflections are opposite channel which can be wierd
Can result in narrower stereo image

In general toe in is a compromise to find the most desirable spot in the blend of on axis vs off axis response vs limiting impact of side reflections.

Toe in to cross over in front aims to increase the distance to the first reflection to give your brain a chance to separate direct sound from side reflected sound instead of just perceiving it as sound colouring. This only works if the extra distance turns out to be sufficient to affect the delay of the side reflection enough for the side reflection to be considered by your brain to actually be a reflection. It also aims to widen the center by giving you more on axis sound of the opposite speaker while giving more off axis sound of the nearest speaker as you move away from ideal listening position. Kind of illusion of auto-balancing as you move.

In the end try it - it may or may not work out for any given speaker setup+room and how you want the system to behave in various locations around the room.

Thanks. That's a very detailed and helpful explanation. Side reflections are not an issue on my main system, but upstairs on my other system, it is a little bit of an issue. Reflections do colour the sound, so I may experiment with some steep toe-in there to see if this helps. The main reason I was asking about this was that most speakers I have owned (all 2010 onwards) have recommended aiming the on axis response directly at the listening position or less. I have seen a couple that recommended a range from no toe-in to crossing in front. But I haven't seen a company recommend crossing in front as optimal. I assumed it might have something to do with the design of the speaker or the manfactures own preferences, at least at the time they made the speakers.

I'll give it a go. Am expecting them to be delivered this week. I will play with them for a while before sending them off to be upgraded and refurbished.

 

[Khazul]

But I haven't seen a company recommend crossing in front as optimal.

I have never seen this recommended by a manufacturer either, however there are a bunch of youtube vids that promote it as better.

I can imagine room setups where it may well be better.

Something i do when auditioning and placing speakers is to listen to only one speaker (pan hard left or right) and slowly move across its axis to get a sense of the angle where the sound is most to your taste (as the high frequencies roll off toward off axis) and also find the point at which the high end detail is disappearing.

The first point may be your ideal main listening position toe in, the latter point may indicate minimum bounce angle off side walls for a tolerable first reflection. If you are lucky, you can make use of both angles, maybe they will tell you its worth trying a crossover toe in, but if nothing else, you get to know your speaker's response pattern before you commit to positioning it and I find it is useful to know that when choosing the toe-in compromise you want to live with

 

[FootHealer]

I have never seen this recommended by a manufacturer either, however there are a bunch of youtube vids that promote it as better.

I can imagine room setups where it may well be better.

Something i do when auditioning and placing speakers is to listen to only one speaker (pan hard left or right) and slowly move across its axis to get a sense of the angle where the sound is most to your taste (as the high frequencies roll off toward off axis) and also find the point at which the high end detail is disappearing.

The first point may be your ideal main listening position toe in, the latter point may indicate minimum bounce angle off side walls for a tolerable first reflection. If you are lucky, you can make use of both angles, maybe they will tell you its worth trying a crossover toe in, but if nothing else, you get to know your speaker's response pattern before you commit to positioning it and I find it is useful to know that when choosing the toe-in compromise you want to live with

Great advice! I will try that. Thanks

 

[FootHealer]

Well, the seller sent the speakers in two packages. One arrived today (containing one speaker of course), so I decided to hook it up to get an impression, and........oh dear! Turned my 60w per channel (into 8Ohm) amp up to -20db, way louder than I normally have it, and the speakers play at a low volume and very muffled. It sounds like the tweeter isn't working and perhaps something is else is wrong too. Basically in need of serious repairs. I decided to return it instead, as the seller said it was working fine, and clearly isn't. Never mind. I have always been averse to buying used equipment. This strengthens my resolve not to do it again.

 

[FRFT]

Don't let it put you off.

The old speakers I've sold on eBay were like new condition with original box, instruction manual and everything.

A lot of the time you can tell the difference between a good owner and a bad one by how they communicate with you

 

[FootHealer]

Don't let it put you off.

The old speakers I've sold on eBay were like new condition with original box, instruction manual and everything.

A lot of the time you can tell the difference between a good owner and a bad one by how they communicate with you

Maybe. This seller didn't communicate at all. Not one message. I guess I will see that as a red flag, but by then you've already bid for and/or bought the item. Puts me off, bigtime. It'll be a while before I buy anything used again, other than off AVForums.

 

[FootHealer]

Well, the second speaker arrived, and it was in worse shape than the last one. I opened them up and the tweeters had broken out of their housing and one was stuck to the woofer magnet. One of the cabinets took a bashing and is marked and torn on the corners. Even the box was wet and delivered 2 days after the first. Goodness knows what they did to it.

I put the tweeters back in place, fixed it all up, and they actually sound amazing. I was really surprised. Sadly, one cabinet is pretty banged up, and I will probably return them. Its a shame, as they sound great.

Never use MyHermes, and when you are buying, ask the seller not to use them. I forgot on this occasion, and they smashed up a perfectly good speaker. Add that to the amp they threw over the wall, the headphones they smashed, and the earbuds that disappeared...I'll give them one thing, at least they are consistent in offering bad service. Anyway, moving on...

 

[Khazul]

Since the pandemic and the change in delivery method to dump on door step (or worse - on pavement in front of drive) and run away I have found the state of boxes really bad with the worst being a new sub that was completely trashed.

Doesn't seem to matter which courier - all seem as bad.

 

[FootHealer]

Since the pandemic and the change in delivery method to dump on door step (or worse - on pavement in front of drive) and run away I have found the state of boxes really bad with the worst being a new sub that was completely trashed.

Doesn't seem to matter which courier - all seem as bad.

I understand and partly agree, but I have had only one issue with DPD, and almost every delivery is an issue with MyHermes. They may all be bad, but some are surprising awful.

 

[Khazul]

I understand and partly agree, but I have had only one issue with DPD, and almost every delivery is an issue with MyHermes. They may all be bad, but some are surprising awful.

It was DPD that managed to trash a 1K sub and even left the damn thing on the pavement...

Never mind the mishandling, the driver should have been fired from his job for that.