1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Richer Sounds!

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by John Watts, May 2, 2002.

  1. John Watts

    John Watts
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2001
    Messages:
    3,835
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    Leeds
    Ratings:
    +80
    Hi all i ordered a Paradigm servo 15 today from RS they told me they should have one in for next Thursday and will call me when it arrives.
    Dous anyone know of their track record with this because i have ordered things before(from other suppliers) and they have taken ages to arrive.
    I guess it will come eventually but i can barely wait! have any of you bought a servo 15 from them? how long did it take to arrive to you? and what was your opinion of it when you got it.
    Please share your thoughts with me on this sub,thanks John.
     
  2. jiml

    jiml
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    56
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Paignton
    Ratings:
    +2
    I phoned my local RS who didn't have any, so phoned the mail order number last Thursday. Arrived Monday. This replaced an MJ Acoustics Pro50.

    First impressions were WOW it's HUGE and HEAVY. Wife couldn't move it till I got home. I think that for music it is a bit 'flabby'. In the Matrix lobby scene with the pounding music beat, the music sounded better and tighter on the Pro50. But the chain gun and helicopter explosion are awesome. Things fell off shelves in the adjoining room. You can FEEL the explosion wash over you. :eek:

    If you don't like your neighbours, have a big room and don't mind adjusting the level for music you will love this sub.

    Alternatively you could crank up the dance beats, open the windows and pretend you're cruisin' in a clapped out Nova with a loud pipe :clown:

    I still need to tweak the levels as it's a bit big to move around, and after a couple of days it seems to improve, but I would have liked to compare it to a REL Q100e or Strata, or MJ-Pro 100 but in Deepest Devon there aren't many choices.

    :D
     
  3. General Skanky

    General Skanky
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    4,206
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Ratings:
    +44
    Speak to member Nic Rhodes. All round 'duty hero' when it comes to this particular sub.:)
     
  4. LostInUK

    LostInUK
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi John,

    I also have a Paradigm Servo15 from Richer Sounds, which was offered to me. They had some in stock by that time, so my grilfriend had no problems in getting one. Unfortunately, the first one was broken (the MDF case was crashed!!!!!! Believe it or not!!!), and it was a bit of a gamble to get the second one. In the final everything went OK.

    Performance wise, I think you cannot buy anything better for less than £1500. No comparison with any of the RELs Q series and even Strata. I am really sorry but it is my oppinion. They just sound uncontrolled and distorted when compared.
    A decent subwoofer needs a closed-loop-control system, like the Paradigm Servo15, Velodyne and the last Martin Logan to perform well at very low frequencies. They sound so much more controled. People tends to confuse proper reproduction of what the pre-amplfiers send to the subwoofer, with "huge" and uncontrolled bass reproductions that may sound correct but are not.

    Recently, I had the opportunity of listenning again some REL subs, a M&K THX (expensive one, not sure the model) integrated in a very-high-end system and the Velodyne HGS-12. Just confirmed how good the Paradigm and the Velodyne are. If you listen to accustic instruments like bass, cello, etc. you will be able to realise how much realistic they sound.

    I hope it helps. I think it was a wise choice. I plan to buy the second one pretty soon, in order to even the bass response in my living room.

    Bests.
     
  5. John Watts

    John Watts
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2001
    Messages:
    3,835
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Location:
    Leeds
    Ratings:
    +80
    Hi Nic somebody pointed me in your direction for a bit of conversation about a Servo 15 please read the Richer sounds! thread in forum and give me your opinions i would be very gratefull. By the way are you THE Nic Rhodes of musical fame?
     
  6. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Been away again. Sorry for the delay.

     
  7. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have to agree.
    Having bought.......then sold this sub, I have to say I couldn't get on with it at all.
    Yes, it does go low AND loud. Unfortunately thats not the only criteria of a sub, for me anyways. For things like action movie effects etc I agree that this does give great bang for buck.
    For music......forget about it.
    I find my M&K 350 a much better general all round sub. Ok, its costs more but I've not heard ANY quality issues with the M&K in all the forums I frequent.
    Unlike the Servo 15 where there have been countless complaints (sorry Nik, not disinformation) by many buyers. Including one on this thread already.


    Chip
     
  8. jiml

    jiml
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    56
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Paignton
    Ratings:
    +2
    Today I was mostly listening to music and spent some time adjusting crossover and volume levels. I did get a pleasing balance after a short while. I think there are many issues here:
    1. Commercial music (Radio 1+2) varies tremendously in its quality. Generally mixed for boom-boxes and car radio.
    2. I'm using a Yamaha E800 processor. For the Radio or CD I have the effects off. Obviously for movies I have the effects on. I'm guessing that with the effects off the processor crossover is bypassed so the sub crossover point is more critical.
    3. Given the above, one limitation of the sub is it's single low level input which has to be used for both types of source.
    4. When I get a new toy I like to push it to the max so had the balance way too high.
    5. The physical size limits positional flexibility in a normal "living room". People with 2 must live in mansions or have a dedicated cinema room.
    6. Some people say "if you've seen one you've seen them all". How do you know untill you HAVE seen them all? :D
    7. The end result is only as good as your source.

    So after listening to Elton John, opera on radio 3 and finally watching Gladiator tonight with the same settings as used for music, there is no way I will swap this sub. I love the way that you are *aware* of the low frequencies that you can't hear.

    I would like to know what the concensus is on using the active crossover, or straight connect to sub.
     
  9. LostInUK

    LostInUK
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Ratings:
    +0
    "Having bought.......then sold this sub, I have to say I couldn't get on with it at all."

    Well, I believe everybody has different oppinions about hi-fi components, and much it is said about them. Ok, Chip may not like it, but the Paradigm is not a good subwoofer for one kind of application and not good for other. There is not such things. If a subwoofer is able to accurately play the feeded signal from the pre-amplifier then you have reached you audio-nirvana, as far as subwoofer is concerned. The problem is that none is able to do it because of dynamic constains associated with "big-drive producing loads of sound pressure" at low frequencies. And the Paradigm does it better than the majority of the others, thanks to its cloosed-loop control system. Low distortion at any output level, and accurate frequency response at the low frequencies it works. No direct driven (where the drive movement is not controled) is able to do as accurately.

    A final comment. It is not price of the sub that is going to make it better. My budget included the MX-350 also.

    Recently during a discussion with an Audio engineer from a known hi-fi brand, he said exactly what Nick and myself had already discovered. That the Paradigm could easily be the bargain of this times!!! And he knows the M&K very well.

    Bests
     
  10. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Pedro,
    With respect thats rubbish!!!

    Chip
     
  11. LostInUK

    LostInUK
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Ratings:
    +0
    OK Chip.

    Fair enough. So, please just give me a good and well justified technical explanation how it should work for these said "so different" two applications and I will accept it. It seems that I maybe missing some understanding of how it works. But please, do not write that kind of text and explanations as they write in the hi-fi magazines, but something I bit more technical. Until then.......

    I am all ears Chip!!!! And please, do not take it personally; these are always very constructive discussions.

    Bests.
     
  12. LostInUK

    LostInUK
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Ratings:
    +0
    And Nick,

    if I understand well what is going to happen in that barn, I would definitely buy another two!!! ;)

    Regards
     
  13. LostInUK

    LostInUK
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Ratings:
    +0
    Jiml,

    I do have mine straight connected to the AV processor because I do not need signal phase correction (my speakers and the sub are working in phase), and I do prefer to do the bass management using the processor also. I found the result a bit better when the filtering is done in the digital domain, but differences were not huge. The only thing that it was better while using the active crossover is that it gave me more room to set the crossover frequency, while the processor only has 3 frequencies (50, 80 and 120Hz). So I could do it more accurately, in order to get a more flat frequency response from Speaker+Sub.

    But I think it really depends on your speakers, room construction (since the crossover may give you more crossover setup possibilities) and necessity of phase correction. I believe the crossover itself is not excelent but not of bad quality either.
     
  14. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    I am afraid I totally agree with Pedro on this one. He has summed it up well. Look at the serious sub reviews in the world and you will see they support Perdro on this one. Many reviewers across the pond use the Paradigm as the Reference, along with Velodynes. Yes we all went down the M and K route as well. £2100 for M and K in this country, Servo15 £499. In the states the same models are similar money ($1600)! Work that one out!

    The dis-information I was talking about is dealer saying the RS version is a cheap copy made in the UK and not the genuine Canadian product. Rubish.
     
  15. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    One of the main problems with AV Forums is that its hard to crit gear that people own. The minute someone stands up to say, hang on a minute, this bit of gear 'aint that good. Whooshe. Flames. Ok folks. Everything you bought if dandy.

    Now. Lets get a reality check.


    Nick,
    As an owner of the Servo 15 yourself, I'm hardly surprised that "You're with Pedro on this one".
    Firstly, I agree that this is the same sub as sold in Canada. Thats one of my problems.
    WHY, if they can get that kind of money (1500 Usd - 1750 Usd depending on finish) for this sub over in Canada and the USA would they be selling it for next to nothing over here in the UK where usually, things are the other way around. Quality goods fetch premium prices (anywhere in the world) without exception.

    Dont forget Richer pays duty, vat and makes a profit and still sells the box for 500 pounds hence my expression "next to nothing".

    Chip
     
  16. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Pedro,
    While I don't have the tech expertise of people like Nic Rhodes or Uncle Eric I'll do my best.

    First off, lets state the obvious and get it over with. There are four common subwoofer designs. 1)Servo Feedback, 2) Push Pull, 3) Passive Radiator, and lastly, 4) Simple Vented enclosure subs.

    The "Servo Feedback design that the Paridigm employs IS supposed to be the most accurate way of producing low frequencies, hence its the choice of number crunchers like Nic Rhodes (no offense). The Push Pull designs such as those employed by the likes of M&K lag just behind in second place followed by the passive rad and vented designs.

    For newbies, (as I'm sure Pedro isn't one) "servo feedback" means that a sensor on or near the speaker cone feeds back information to the amplifier about how the cone is moving when a signal is passed through the voice coil. A special circuit compares this sensory feedback with the amplifier signal that is being sent to the speaker. If the two signals are different (and they are, because the speaker is producing harmonic distortion), the signal to the speaker is modified by adding electrical information that will cancel out the distorted movements of the speaker cone. The servo feedback subwoofer produces the most accurate sound quality (if properly designed), because most of the even and odd ordered harmonic distortion is cancelled out.

    The next most accurate (freedom from harmonic distortion) subwoofer design is the active push pull (both speakers electrically connected; see above), where the even ordered harmonic distortion components are cancelled out. I wont bother to explain the other two simple and more straightforward designs safe to say they are further down the food chain.

    With regards to performance factors, subjectively higher volume will be heard from non servo feedback subwoofers (of similar cabinet volume and amplification) because some of the harmonic distortion is still present. However, this distortion is not as disturbing at low frequencies as it is at higher frequencies, so, if you want a subwoofer with additional "punch", its worth considering one of the other types above.

    After all the above, I have to say that a poorly designed servo feedback subwoofer could have more distortion than a well designed acoustic suspension subwoofer with no servo feedback or push pull.

    I think the Servo 15 is one of these "poor" designs. As I've said, it goes low and loud, but its not articulate. Another problem I had with this sub is to do with the cabinet/enclosure itself.
    Without doubt it had very poor Resonance due to the cabinet not being well damped and/or poor cabinet construction and bracing. Again for newbies a brief explanation. Resonance can add artifacts to the sound (the vibrating cabinet acts like a speaker itself), which muddys and robs the sub of its accuracy.

    Getting back to Pedro's question regarding the use of this sub for the two applications I mentioned earlier, Movies and Music, I think I answered this before. Never mind. I'll give it another go.

    Movies. Subjectively listening to a Sub while playing "The Matrix Lobby scene" for example would be nothing more than a joke. What would anyone deduce from that apart form the fact that it goes booom and very loud. In such case's (Movie's) the Servo 15's faults go into hibernation with stuff like this. Indeed listening to the high DB together with the very low "lows" of this sub one would presume this to be the 'Goliath' of subs.....IT IS.
    The trouble is, that little 'Davids' from the likes of M&K and REL can and do dance around this box in more subtle situations such as subjective music listening. Even my old Q50 had better music manners than this fumbling giant.

    Lastly, I'd like to say that listening to speakers/subs is a personal thing that no amount of measuring will explain. (Sorry Nic) However, and this is important, Subjective listening itself is no easy thing but its something I pride myself on doing properly.

    In my opinion, the Servo 15 just doesn't cut the mustard the way some smaller less powerfull subs do with certain aspects of sound reproduction. I would suggest the two most difficult things for any system (Stereo or Home Cinema) to reproduce accurately are vocals/dialogue and music. The complexitys of these two roads are a dead end for the Servo 15.

    Chip
     
  17. jiml

    jiml
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2002
    Messages:
    56
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Paignton
    Ratings:
    +2
    As a newbie to this, Does this depend on the size of your main speakers and hence the crossover frequncy? For instance most main speakers have at least a tweeter and a low/mid range driver implying that at least 2 speakers are required to cover say 80Hz to 20kHz. Is it a bit much expecting a single driver to adequately reproduce the range from 15Hz to 100Hz? However if your mains can go down to <50Hz then perhaps the Servo15 is a good choice, whereas with small mains a smaller subwoofer would be a better match albeit without giving the really low frequencies. ie as someone elsewhere in this forum coined the phrase a "mid-woofer".
     
  18. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Jim,
    Good point. I remember reading a post (by Uncle Eric I think) that he was planning a three way speaker set up for this reason. Satelites for highs to mids, Rel 100's for mids to low mids (30/40 Hz I think he said), and other larger subs for lower frequencys.

    This is no mean task as its hard enough to integrate two layers of sound let alone three. My opinion is that the common crossover point of 80Hz is actually far from ideal as this is one of the most sensitive areas (around 50Hz to 100Hz) of our hearing whereby even inexperienced listeners can find inconsistencies.

    I wouldn't mind an opinion from Eric on this thread as it was he that coined the phrase you mentioned, "Midwoofer".

    Chip
     
  19. Orbital

    Orbital
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2001
    Messages:
    510
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Midlands
    Ratings:
    +4
    It there’s one thing you can't accuse Nic of it's this. You don't get to be one of the most respected people of the forum by giving out false, inaccurate advice. Sorry to sound like a "Nic" groupie but that comment was just bang out of order.

    Cheers

    Dave
     
  20. lmccauley

    lmccauley
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2000
    Messages:
    3,322
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Ratings:
    +216
    Gotta agree with Orbital - Nic, along with Uncle Eric, have always been as objective as possible. They give solid reasons for their conclusions (often in great, great detail) and even say when they think that they've made mistakes with purchases. See Nic's comments about his SACD player, or Eric's comments about his S150 (not a mistake, as such, he just admitted that it probably wasn't that cost effective compared to his original S85).

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  21. LostInUK

    LostInUK
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well Chip, as we have said before, I am not here to try to prove that my gear is better than anybody else gear, and that I have done the best choice. The only point is discuss if it is a good choice or not and why, or why not.

    I am starting to understand that your explanation is more related with BUDGET $$$. In that case I have nothing to say.
    I am happy you like your M&K. I also like all my hi-fi gear, and not because of its price. And probably I know better how much they cost to the dealers than you do.
     
  22. LostInUK

    LostInUK
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Ratings:
    +0
    I do not design speakers also.

    So we agree that the extra puch does not mean correct signal playback. But just added output due to harmonic distortion.

    We do agree again in this one.

    We disagree completely on this one. Ok you technical details are OK. Even if I do not understand what you want to say with "articulate", because something the Servo 15 has is good dynamic response. But the Servo15 is far from a poor design. It measure a bit more distortion that a Velodyne but one of the lowest anyway, when compared with the kinds of M&K and REL. And it does it at much lower frequencies than the others do, including the Velodyne. At the frequencies the other subs output it is an extrememly good performer. Both Nick and me know how good it measures.

    humm I got a bit confused with your explanation. Could not see what the good and bad points are.
    If the sub can reproduce the frequencies you feed it, and has good dynamic response to accurately playback the transients in the wave signal, well, what's that supposed difference between small and big subs?
    Or are you trying to say that small subs are "faster"??? I never understood what that is, anyway. 43Hz are 43Hz here and in China and even Mars. So, either a lack of transient response or otherwise cannot see the problem here. And transients, as the name points out are not constant, happen when big frequency changes exist. And they are very difficult to notice at low frequencies. Usually the "speed" of the bass, that sensation people has of fast "beat" is associated with mid-low range frequencies, not played but subwoofers. Large drives can suffer from lack of accurate dynamic response because of a possible increase in cone mass. But I assure you it is not the case of the Paradigm. It has a sufficientely powerful amplifier and magnet to make that cone work properly.

    Well, I do agree that listenning is important. But probably because of our technical background, me and Nick are also interesting in trying to listen to the "numbers" we measured before. It is not easy, but if you live in a technical world for a long time you find your self doing it instinctively, as it is the only way of doing a proper job. Trying to understand the "numbers". Like it is done in the factories where they design the subwoofers. You design them, you make them, measure them accurately and then try to listen to the "measurements", and try to understand were the faults need to be fixed, or if they indeed have to stay to create a more congruent result. And that may not necessarily mean a better result, as a lot of the designs are faulty.

    I would say the most difficult things to sound natural in a hi-fi system are strings, and then voices. Voices are easy to spot because our ears are very sensitive with them. So, they either sound natural or not. But I cannot see great use of a subwoofer for that, essencially if you use it for frequencies bellow 80Hz. I leave that for my monitor speakers.
    For cello, bass and organ, me and Nick seem to have different oppinion from you. And the Paradigm plays a good game there.
    I also advise people to go and listen to different subs before buying, but please, try to listen to accustic instruments and try to understand which sub sound more natural, with better harmonic reproduction. Of course you need to listen to them in the same conditions, after a proper setup.
     
  23. Plump

    Plump
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    636
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    under the bridge
    Ratings:
    +0
    Please allow me to add one here.

    I was after a good sub for some time and I got a chance to test a few two weeks ago.
    It all started with Paradigm Servo 15 offered as a great value for money and ended with the purchase of REL Strata III.
    I had them both (along with two other REL's) at home for a weekend and REL won by clear margin. I know this might differ from room to room but Paradigm was somehow not so easy to set up (do not know why, but REL was more flexible and when tried in the corner Paradigm was awfull and REL only boomy) and it did not bring that what I was expected!
    So at the end old story was told again - the hell with the money this is what I get.

    This is my personal opinion and I do not want to heat up this thread furthermore, but sorry Pedro and Nic - I am not with you on this one.

    cheers
     
  24. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Plump

    I can't fault your logic here and here in lies the problem. Sub set up is the most difficult thing to do in HC. I am therefore alway reluctant to believe someone who says product X is crap compared to product y. More often than not x was just poorly set up / not easily positioned in a particular room. It does NOT make product x crap. It might just be suitable for where you want to position it in a room. I am much more interested in someone who says x and y are great because...... butI chose y as it suited my room. They have at least had a chance of listening to what both products can do and make informed decisions.

    I will write some more later....
     
  25. Plump

    Plump
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    636
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Location:
    under the bridge
    Ratings:
    +0
    I agree here completely with you.
    What I wanted to say is that in my case REL won by clear margin and was much easier to set up! That's all.
    But for the price you pay in UK at RS for Paradigm it is definitely worth a try.
    Cheers
     
  26. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2001
    Messages:
    17,133
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1,277
    Typical ‘servo’ design have distortion in the 0.x figures. Poor servo design are typically 0.2x. Typical push pull designs can often have 20 – 30% distortion, the other types are even worse. Frankly it is not even close and is the reason powerful amps are the order of the day for ALL sub woofer types.

    Whilst I am not saying poor servo design don’t exist they are far rarer than other types. Basically if you get servo technology wrong they blow up and blow up big time (smoke and loud cracking sounds). Just look at the HiFi World experiments in the mid 90s. Servo designs generally either work or don’t subject to the usual faults that occur with all sub manufacture. I have personal experience of faulty RELs, M and K and Paradigm.

    In all this I have also touted other subs worth looking at that use servo technology (Linn, Velodyne, Martin Logan etc etc). There are many posts on this. I have also touted dual subs for those who have difficult rooms. If you are a moderator here you can great perfectly flat bass with one sub (lucky bast***!), the rest of us there are some ‘quality’ advantages having two (or more!!!). If you read my original posts re the Servo15 sub, it was hardly complimentary and was run as a diary. It hardly showed Richer Sounds in glory, I also had a faulty Servo15. I pulled no punches. I did stick with it and have ended up with a great system bass system. This however isn’t as easy to set us as say a Rel ST range sub (don’t forget I own these as well) but like all things in life takes some effort and time to do properly. The Rel works best in small rooms, whereas the Servo15 needs a decent room to breath…. No fault of the design but a consequence of ‘true bass’.

    Calling the Servo15 a poor design is just plain WRONG. I am afraid there is no other way to say this. Fine it might not fit you room, might be the wrong colour, be too large or poorly positioned by you. These are all arguments I could accept but to call it a poor design is daft I am afraid. There is just too much evidence to the contrary both here and elsewhere. It is a great design IMHO, even more impressive when you consider the cost it is done at in this country. A search of this site will give independent measurements from The Audio Critic in the states. These guys don’t suffer fools gladly.

    The Servo15 cabinet is simple in construction but I would never call it a resonant structure. It does what is needed. No more, no less. Don’t forget heavier does NOT make a better sub. This sub comes out of one of the major research labs into speakers in the world. They understand resonance. A Canadian government institution renowned for top quality international research throughout the world. Pardigm (and other manufacturers from Canada (Bryston)) are known for top quality /low price. Don’t forget Canada is a common wealth country and therefore subject to less tax (which is why many of us get R1 DVDs from Canada and not the states).

    Whilst I am a big fan of some REL subs (Q bass, q 50 etc) I will also criticise where I think is applicable (q200 /150). To hint I flame people or are not will to criticise what I have is just plain wrong. The are many who can vouch for me here (and have done already on my behalf) and you only have to look at 1400 posts helping people, not counting the loads of emails and PM I deal with every day just for the love of it. I sell no kit, make no money from this and use what little time I have helping others where I can (this is being written, like many posts with a 4 month twin girl falling asleep on my lap (hopefully!)). I have made a career here by making people discover the truth by thinking about what they do, even if that wasn’t the perceived wisdom when I started. I only post where I have personal experience and something to say unless I am asking questions for my own education, which I do. If I don’t know I say so.

    What I do find disturbing is many here want to knock perfectly good kit just because they don’t own it. I feel it is a shame and helps no one. I think I can say that with possibly one exception what ever kit I have bought, I can find equally as good performing kit from other firms. I say so. It is then down to all the other bits like money. Because I didn’t buy manufacturer x over y doesn’t make it crap, poor design or whatever you want to call it. It just makes it different.

    More than one contributor to this thread has been ‘helped’ by me on bass issues though they haven’t gone the Servo15 route. They have examined their situation and made the right choice for them. I believe it has worked well for them. It doesn’t make the Servo15 we talked about (amongst others) as a poor design.

    Personal preference is all very well. However as both a professional engineer and professional wine taster the one thing I had to learn was to write about quality separate to personal preference. I can tell you what great beaujolais is, but that doesn’t mean I want to drink the stuff. HC is similar and personal preference can and should be kept separate. Look at my previous posts and you will see I give a variety of recommendations for a product to cover a series of styles. Take posh amps, I recommend Tag, Bryston and Parasound. I bought Tag but that doesn’t mean I don’t recognise the others will also have their fans and place. If people want to buy high distortion subs / amps in preference to a high quality well engineered unit, fine. That is their choice. Don’t forget I am a fan / designer / builder of high distortion valve amps. I like them but I have never said they are better than the commercial products like Tag (substitute Servo15). They are not but many people are flattered and prefer them on short audition. Fine, that’s why I build them, but they aren’t better amps than the Tag. Again this is peoples personal preference but that should never take away from a quality designed amp like the Tag (sub Servo15).

    Why do we always want to knock ground breaking products?

    Despite my technical back ground, I am a main stream vinyl addict who loves valves. I certainly don’t play the numbers game, however I understand them and use them as an engineer but I still trust my own senses more, hence my original comments. I picked this sub over my already more expensive Rel. I don’t have the facilities of manufacturers like Linn and Tag, therefore my amps are designed by ear.

    Calling a servo15 a fumbling giant that doesn’t cut the mustard the way smaller less powerful ……This is something I just don’t recognise and I can only conclude that this product was just not set up correctly and hasn’t been understood.

    It is all to easy to knock a product as crap when the thing that was at fault wasn’t the product itself but how it was used. Now anyone want to plead guilty to that? I will certainly plead guilty to that and have done hear already. Eltax bi polar speakers. My initial impressions were wrong because I didn’t understand and use the product correctly………….but I admitted to it……..anyone have similar experiences with products where opinions have completely changed when set up correctly. CRT projectors?
     
  27. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Is there an Echo in here. This is what I've already said!!!!

    Apart that is from the 'generalized' distortion figures you quote which vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and even model to model.

    Chip
     
  28. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Pedro,
    Price doesn't come into it.
    My comment regarding people supporting their choice of gear is a very valid one which I stand by. Quite often, there is a huge backlash from some of these enthusiasts as its taken as a personal insult. (Eg, you picked the wrong gear so you must be dumb).
    This is not what I'm saying to you at all and if this is how I came across, please accept my apologies. I'm told you are a nice guy so I extend a truce.

    Chip
     
  29. LostInUK

    LostInUK
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2001
    Messages:
    103
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Lisbon
    Ratings:
    +0
    OK.
    But I keep my opinion about the Paradigm. I do not agree with your opinion about it. Even because I have done sufficient listening of all that subs to know what I am talking about, and I also have the knowledge of how they work to understand the reason why a servo sub performs ussually so well. There are a lot of people with much more understanding of how they work, that agree with me and Nic. And some of that people do hi-fi design for living. So, we are too many with reasonable knowledge about it to be wrong.
    Nobody is saying the M&K or REL are crap, or a stupid choice. I was just trying to give my point that the Paradigm, and you believe it or not, it is without any doubt better than any of them, at least until the £1500 prices. And that I say it with particular confidence.

    You have to understand that the majority of the comparisons done by us are not fair and not even acceptable from a technical point of view. You need to compare component, being them subs, amps or speakers, in the exact same conditions, using simillar components and after hours of setup, and listening them preferably in a blind test with similar loudness output, etc. And all this, if you can afford to have the components side by side.
    Subs can be difficult because the "sweet" spot in you living room may be the same for both of them, and what can you do, pile them until the celling?

    Also, technical details for me are as important as listening to the components. Otherwise I was in the wrong job, and something I have to spend my bloody live doing is understanding the meaning of the numbers. So, for me they are useful and I try to make them as meaningful as possible. For example, distortion for me is an important problem. And I spend a lot of my listening time trying to spot it because it is a measure of accuracy. Why listening to it if you shouldn't?
    It is my preference to "listen" to things like this. Some people choose components based on how much pleasure and easy listening they provide. I like accuracy, and a lot of times, it just makes things to sound bad because the problem is somewhere else, in the CD mix for example.
    So, let's put the things like this. You did not managed to listen to the Paradigm in its best, and the M&K was easier to setup, also distortion is not that important for you at that specific frequencies, which are difficult to listen to, usually you "feel" them. Fair enough. In that case I accept it. But saying Paradigm = Bad design, no, sorry, but with all the respect, in that case you do not know what you are talking about.

    I understand that everybody likes his or her own choices. We like to feed our ego, even just by making sure we know what we have done, and we have done something great. But I am not trying to sell the Paradigm, I am trying to tell others that it is really good, worth the money, a bargain that is almost impossible to understand!
    I also have some gear at home that I would not advise people to buy because you could get something more "universal" or even with better performance with the same money. Why have I bought them? Because I like their analytical sound. A lot of people do not.

    No need to apologise. Otherwise, I have to do the same, as you may see my words in a different way. I always understood we were in a polite discussion, reason why I said at one time to not take it personally. It has been an interesting talk.

    And please do not believe in what people says!!!! I am not a nice guy!! Just ask my fiance!! :D
     
  30. Chip

    Chip
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Thats fine, I will also keep my poor opinion on Paradigm Servo 15

    I see, just what do you call sufficiant with all these subs you are supposed to have listened to?

    Yes and if you bothered to read my earlier post properly you would have seen that I'm one of those people. I did say that the Servo system "Should" perform best. However, there are exceptions to everything and IMO the Servo 15 is one of those exceptions. Regarding testing and listening, I've done plenty of both (don't forget I owned one) and tried it in nearly every square inch of my room.

    Yes yes, you and Nic

    This was actually one of my first points. Ever seen Ferrari ship goods and sell them at less than half price?
    Something is wrong somewhere and my view is that this is possibly not selling in the States or Canada. Surely when goods get shipped to the UK they get far more expensive.
    Again, this is not a price issue. Its suspician based.

    I'm all for bargains but there's no such thing as a free lunch.

    Chip
     

Share This Page

Loading...