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RGBvProgressive Scan vHDMI

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by VistaVision, Apr 13, 2004.

  1. VistaVision

    VistaVision
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    Can someone give me a rough percentage idea of the improvement in connecting a DVD player via RGB scart, compared to connecting via Progressive Scan compared to connecting via HDMI cable?
    Many thanks:thumbsup:
     
  2. alancolledge

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    I couldn't give you a percentage but the difference from bog standard RGB to progressive DVI (nearly HDMI!) is dramatic.

    I am not a picture expert as some on the forum and I would love to give you some officious terminology but in laymans terms!!

    I have Sky + through RGB my old DVD (also connected through RGB) although gave a better picture, up close to the screen I could see 'noises' around some movement which related to say the best quality Sky Movie channels.

    The improvements I have seen with DVI has done away with those noises for a brighter, much sharper picture as if to wipe the screen clean again.

    I am sorry I can't tell you about component as I don't have the cable to view this way.

    In conclusion my expectations have been lived up to if that is anything to go by!!

    :hiya:
     
  3. buns

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    tough to answer seeing as hdmi can be prog scan. You are mixing interfaces are signals..... so its really not possible to compare :)

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  4. VistaVision

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    :thumbsup:
    Many thanks for the imfo. It will help to decide which DVD player to buy to upgrade my present one.
     
  5. buns

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    You really dont need to pay huge premiums for any of these features..... its whether your display can handle them is the more important point

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  6. VistaVision

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    Hoping to upgrade to a plasma towards the end of the year so my question was whether it was worth paying the extra £300 for a DVD player with HDMI as to one with progressive scan, is the difference in picture quality worth the extra cash?
     
  7. buns

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    It depends on the plasma.... your plasma may not have hdmi for a start. Standard prog scan may be enough, the benefit of HDMI is that it is digital and gives alot of scope for different resolutions. For instance, the panasonic plasmas yet wouldnt benefit from using the hdmi 'type' interface. Im intent on getting one of these plasmas and will not be using a digital connection, rather I will use component which is probably what you are thinking of when you say prog scan.

    Apologies if this sounds useless, but im not sure you follow the terminology.

    RGB scart interlaced video analogue
    component interlaced or progressive video analogue
    vga progressive video analogue

    dvi progressive video digital
    hdmi interlaced or progressive video digital

    the last 2 enable much greater flexibility with rate and resolution.

    At the moment, with plasma, my impression is that going for one of these digital interfaces is questionably the way to go.

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  8. VistaVision

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    Thanks, Buns. The plasma is a possibility towards the end of the year. I didn't want to buy a DVD player now and then regret it later. The choices were narrowed down to two Arcam models, the 89 and 79. If the difference between progressive scan and HDMI isn't all that great then it wouldn't judstify the extra expenditure.
    Cheers
     
  9. buns

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    Unfortunately that is almost impossible to answer. Until we hear about those who have tried the dv79, we wont know what options it will leave open, whether it will be compatible with any specific plasmas..... you know?

    If it were my money, id get the dv89 for now (can be had for £599 at creative audio) and then worry about the hdmi later. If you decide you want the benefits that hdmi would bring, you can always invest in an external scaler that would do dvi instead..... this implementation will be every bit as good and in many ways better than hdmi from a dvd player. This route is pretty much the one I am using.

    all the best

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  10. VistaVision

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    Buns,
    Again, thanks for taking the time to help my decision making. However, I'm somewhat more confused than before, I'm new to the HDMI/progressive scan options. Can you give me some idea what," you can always invest in an external scaler that would do dvi instead..... this implementation will be every bit as good and in many ways better than hdmi from a dvd player" means and what kind of cost would be involved?
    Many thanks again.
     
  11. Jack the lad

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    I tried to demo a Arcam 79 yesterday in Seven Oaks (Leeds), they havent got them yet :(

    If anyone knows where I can demo one around the Notts area would be great :smashin:
     
  12. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    vISTA,

    Lumagen VisionDVI will be out in around 4-6 weeks will do what you want. UK SRP is £800

    gORDON
     
  13. Jackass

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    Gordon,

    What will be the DEAL price on the VisionProHDP and VisionHDP and what will be the cost of the SDI input option on the latter?

    Are there any differences between this and the Cheers,

    Steve.
     
  14. buns

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    Vistavision,

    HDMI is a digital interface, that is the biggest thing going for it. It means that signals dont need converted to analogue and the assocoiated degradation does not occur. Now HDMI is an audio and video interface, so, in time, it will do audio as well (it cant yet). The video side of hdmi is pretty much the same as dvi (which is the familiar computer interface). There are minor differences, but for the purposes of this, consider them the same but with a difference connector. So basically dvi offers the same benefits as offered by hdmi. You could get a player with a dvi output, such players do exist.

    In using a player alone, the player itself is doing all the work. The signal is taken from the disc, processed, deinterlaced and scaled if necessary, processed then output. Now the deinterlacing and scaling are very important if you are using an advanced display since these are what takes your signal from being interlaced to being progressive. As you can probably guess, the hardware for doing this isnt necessarily simple or cheap. Within an integrated dvd player, there will be a limited amount of money invested here hence there will be limitation in the picture. So ideally you want a solution which uses very good deinterlacing and scaling. This is often found in an external video processor (like the lumagens mentioned). So what you do is take the signal from a standard dvd player and connect in one way or another to the lumagen. It can take analogue or digital inputs. The lumagen then does the complicated processing and outputs via dvi (if you want - it can do analogue as well which I intend to use).

    You need to remember that hdmi/dvi on its own doesnt necessarily equal quality. There are many other factors and there will be occasions when using an analogue RGB type signal (this can also do progressive signals) will be better. Often the only way of knowing which way is best is to try it yourself.

    all the best

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  15. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    DVI SRP £800
    HDP SRP £1199
    HDP Pro srp£1950

    add £250 for dual SDI input on DVI or HDP, Pro has this as standard.

    add £80 if you want BNC analogue out option on HDP.

    These prices were set 2 months ago. Those who have preordered and paid for beta units will have these prices held.

    These prices are subject to change between now and release.

    If you want to make sure you get these prices you need to contact your dealer. Who knows he might do you a deal.

    Gordon
     
  16. Jackass

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    Gordon,

    Why did they put a DVI-D connector on the HDP Pro output and not the dual analogue and digital type as on the HDP?

    (Or am i getting the two types mixed up?)

    Thanks,

    Steve.
     
  17. buns

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    because the pro already has high quality analogue outputs.....

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  18. JohnWH

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    One small comment, if you're buying the player to use its digital output don't fooled into going for the more expensive one without demoing against a cheaper model, and when you do this do it as a blind test if possible (best if you get a freind to keep an eye on the sales person when they do the swapping as well, but hey, that's just me be paranoid!).

    John.
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    Steve,

    As Buns says. The Pro has all options on it as standard along with some HQ leads and rackmount stuff and LCD display on front for set up.

    HDP is basically performance of Pro with the form factor of smaller DVI only unit.

    Gordon
     
  20. Jackass

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    Gordon,

    Will the connections on the HDP (RCA?) have enough bandwidth for maximum HDTV signals like 1080p?

    Thanks,

    Steve.
     
  21. buns

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    BUT..... sound is something to consider. Although picture may be similar, sound likely wont. Ive upgraded a top notch panasonic sdi player for an arcam. In honesty im not expecting a better picture, but i do expect vastly better sound.

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  22. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Steve,

    There are no 1080P sources.

    1080i sources that we have just now are RCA outs themselves or DVI. So you are already limited by the source. I will, however, check on this.

    G
     
  23. Jackass

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    Thanks Gordon.

    Steve.
     
  24. JohnWH

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    Might be about to start a conversation I think we've had before, my view is that if you blind tested it you wouldn't be able tell the difference given the use of the digital interface, unless the arcam is messing with the audio in some way that you happen to like i.e. not faithfully reproducing the sound. Formovie play back its even more doubtfull that there any difference in sound reproduction.

    Of course someone is welcome to prove to me that I'm wrong, that way I'll stop moaning about spending money on products with questionable value and just get on with enjoying the result!

    John.
     
  25. buns

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    Well you can probably guess I dont subscribe to that view. Quite simply, from a technical standpoint, a transport is NOT a transport. They make a distinct difference in data extraction so there is such a thing as a better transport. Fair enough the digital after circuitry may not be distinguishable from budget to premium player but if you limit what you give to this circuitry, then you limit the output.

    My gf has unknowingly blind tested to prove this point for cd replay between my cd player and panasonic dvd player both fed spdif to a meridian processor. She wont even listen to a cd through the panasonic now..... 'a shame it sounds so bad cos its much nicer than the cd player'

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  26. JohnWH

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    As I said we've had the conversation on the impact of transport quality before, don't either of our positions have changed.

    Interresting enough I talked a friend who owns a meridian transport into me blind testing him against a cheap pany, he only got 4 out 10 attempts correct when he didn't know what was being used as the source. This was quite upsetting for the chap, but amusingly enough he proudly proclaimed that the meridian sounded better as soon as he knew what the source was. Hmm me thinks its all in the mind, but hey thats a choice some may choose to make even knowingly.

    Using the meridian analogue outs the sound was markedly better, as you would expect.

    John.
     
  27. buns

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    Ah i recall now! In any case, we'll both argue until we are blue in the face and it will get us nowhere! Best agree to disagree!

    all the best

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  28. JohnWH

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    Buns,

    not trying to argue but have a bit of data for you, tried using a PC+CDROM to measure error rate (CDROM drive ~=20 quid!), basically out of 1/2 hour of reading data from a disk I only got a single bit of error i.e. 1 in ~3e9 bits, and havent manged to get one since, so actual statistical error rate is probably lower. So basically wrt to our previous conversation I don't think any audible difference between transports can be as a result of error rate.

    Later,
    John.
     
  29. gizlaroc

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  30. Gordon @ Convergent AV

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    John,

    I managed to correctly identify two DVD transports 3 out of three times. They were ARCAM and Meridians. I doubt either yours or mine could be considered statistically accurate tests. I know what I heard. It was a blind dem for me as well in a system I was not that familier with.

    Gordon
    a believer that not all digital is the same.
    Gordon
     

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